Author Topic: Please help debunk these "quotes" from Talmud  (Read 12815 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Masha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1205
Please help debunk these "quotes" from Talmud
« on: August 02, 2010, 02:08:22 AM »
I constantly come across these so-called "direct quotations" from Talmud that speak very badly about the Goyim. I just can't believe that they are accurate. They must either be a fabrication or taken out of context. But I can't check myself because I don't read the language.

Here is a collection on a nazi site (with attributions to specific texts). For those of you who have these texts, it would be an easy thing to check them out. Could you, at least, address a couple?

http://www.nsm88.org/articles/talmudicteachings.html

For example this:

13. "Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night." - Midrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L

(I want to respond to this individual).

Thanks a lot!

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Please help debunk these "quotes" from Talmud
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2010, 02:16:17 AM »
Im sorry but I cannot find any mention of this midrash... This doesn't mean it doesnt exist, but this is not indexed on any Jewish search engine that I can find..

Though I have heard things like the fact that the Jewish neshama is a special creation, above the soul created for the non-Jew... But this must be understood in the proper light..

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/166900/jewish/Whats-this-Jewish-soul-Thing-Arent-We-All-One.htm

http://www.inner.org/noahide/noach2.htm

This site is good at refuting the incorrect Talmud quotations : http://www.sinaicentral.com/jewhaters/defending_the_talmud.htm
« Last Edit: August 02, 2010, 02:23:52 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Masha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1205
Re: Please help debunk these "quotes" from Talmud
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2010, 02:21:31 AM »
Im sorry but I cannot find any mention of this midrash... This doesn't mean it doesnt exist, but this is not indexed on any Jewish search engine that I can find..

Though I have heard things like the fact that the Jewish neshama is a special creation, above the soul created for the non-Jew... But this must be understood in the proper light..



The language just doesn't sound like the midrashic language, even in its translated form. "Condemned"? Sounds suspicious.

Please could you explain about the neshama in a nuanced way? I have also heard something about another level of the Jewish soul. But I am sure it is not meant in a supremacist way. I also would like to be able to answer this charge.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Please help debunk these "quotes" from Talmud
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2010, 02:25:59 AM »
http://www.sinaicentral.com/jewhaters/defending_the_talmud.htm#Gentiles_and_Pagans_in_the_Talmud_

Jewish Enemies, Gentiles and Pagans in the Talmud

The Talmud does mention some things about gentiles and pagans, some of it critical, but the main criticism, the fire, the emotion, was with internal problems. Jews are a nation with a history of internal conflict that is more destructive in some ways than external conflict. The prophet said, "Those who overthrow you and those who destroy you will issue from your loins." We are nation of idealists and some of them are quite dangerous. The first generation of Israel sold Joseph their brother into slavery. The Second Temple was destroyed because of "vain hatred." When the Romans came to destroy Jerusalem, they watched in amazement as the Jewish army divided into three and all three divisions began killing each other. The "wild ones" gained control and burned the stores of food in Jerusalem, forcing people to go out and fight like "men." They murdered a rabbi because they suspected that he opposed them. The murderer was the rabbi's nephew. Finally, a rabbi smuggled himself out of the city and met with the Roman general. That began a warm relationship of the rabbis and leaders of Rome, who protected the rabbis from the "wild ones." Anyone who has read about Russian Communism knows what I am talking about.

Two recent books by Israeli Jewish professors contain more incitement against Jews than anything published by the gentiles. One wrote a book that the Talmud is full of incitement against Christians, and the other wrote a book that Jews in the Middle Ages who were tortured to confess drinking Christian blood may have been guilty as charged. When the Jewish Communists, the cursed Yesvetskia, got their hands on a rabbi, don't ask.

The Talmudists have been battling other elements in Israel from the beginning of the Second Temple period. The internal battles of ideology resulted in mighty slaughters of rabbis time and time again in the Second Temple period. Thus, the Talmudists, products of the Second Temple period over two thousand years ago, have much to say about their Jewish enemies, and have little energy for anyone else.

A great Medieval rabbi, Rabbi Yehuda the Pious, told Jews to make way for others in their travels, and to do a kindness to a gentile traveler as well as a Jew. In fact, he says, "Honor a gentile more than a Jew who opposes the Torah." We know where that idea comes from.

The Vatican recently released its files on the Inquisition. A reviewer commented that the major emphasis and destruction was not aimed at non-Catholics, but at Catholics who were seen to deviate from the main Catholic position. The rabbis never had a physical Inquisition, but they did protest internal dissent and certain Jewish sects such as the "wild ones" with their burning the stores of food to force Jews to leave the security of the walls of Jerusalem to go out and fight a hopeless battle with the Roman Legions.

I was recently involved in dealing with a very tough religious Jewish man, and whoever approached him about something received a snarled rebuff. Someone asked me to intervene, but cautioned me to speak not Yiddish but English to him. I spoke a pure English to him, and he agreed to what I asked. Why did he snarl at the others and talk nicely to me? The others spoke Yiddish and he turned on them. When I spoke like a gentile, he was not angry, and showed respect. It is a strange world, but that is what happened.

The Talmud has strong words for everyone, because that is how the Talmudists spoke, to each other, and about everything. The Torah, they said, was fire, and one must be on fire to learn it and practice it. Their talk was also fire. But inside the intellectual fireworks was a love created by an honest spirituality. When you just read the words, however, it sounds awful. But remember, whatever they say about Romans, Greeks, and other pagans, they spoke much worse about their own, about those who opposed the scholars, and even other scholars who "erred" etc.

There is a method to the madness. The rabbis did not want a cold religion. They did not want people to give a dollar of charity and then turn on the radio. They wanted a person to cry when he gave a dollar, and suffer because he could not give two dollars. For this they awakened people with emotional phrases, with metaphors, with pictures and astounding warnings. But this was a system to produce not just the mind, but the heart.

If you want the Jewish attitude towards gentiles and pagans, read the Jewish Torah literature, beginning with the bible or the Five Books of Moses and going through the Talmud,. If you do, and are careful in your reading, you will notice something extremely interesting. The Jews lived more or less at peace with the gentiles during the entire Biblical Era. The Jewish Era in the Bible begins 3700 years ago with the Jewish year 2000, with Abraham's becoming a Jew. Abraham was greatly honored and respected by all of the Egyptian and Canaanite Kings. So was his son Isaac, and so was his grandson Jacob. Other than a few problems with having their wives taken and then returned, the basic atmosphere was quite positive. One bad episode was when Dinah the daughter of Jacob was raped, but it is obvious from the story in the bible that this has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. Even when the sons of Jacob destroyed the village of the rapist, the pagan kings despite their feelings did not harm the Jews.

The bad part begins, not with biblical pagans hurting Jews, but with Jews and their relatives. The problems begin with Laban the father-in-law of Jacob who tormented him while he was in Laban's house, but there was no lasting damage, and the two parted properly enough. The real serious problems begin with the sons of Jacob selling their brother Joseph out of envy or whatever idealisms they may have had. This led to the divine decree that the Jews would go to Egypt as slaves and in Egypt the Jews did become slaves. It is clear from the biblical account that there was no anti-Semitism in Egypt. The Egyptians were confused by the large number of Jews in their country, and seeking to control them, enslaved them. We can call the Egyptians any names we want, because they murdered baby boys and enslaved the Jews. But the issue was not anti-Semitism in its modern form. The Egyptians had a religion which rejected eating sheep, and when the Jews ate sheep the Egyptians were horrified and so the two people did not eat together. But there was no hate. Indeed, not all Egyptians even agreed that Jews should be enslaved. An Egyptian princess, Basya, saved Moses when he was left in a basket in the river.

Indeed, the rabbis make it clear that Pharoah was an unwilling taskmaster of the Jews. He did not want to enslave the Jews, but the populace insisted upon it. Eventually, the rabbis say, he was dethroned until he would agree to enslave the Jews. Whether you want to believe this story or not, the point we make here is that the rabbinical literature does not paint Pharoah as a hater of Jews, quite the opposite. In fact, rabbinical literature blames the Jews for their miseries in Egypt, and does not point the finger at the Egyptians. Therefore, the issue was not hate.

The Jews left Egypt and received the Torah at Sinai. Now we find an evil people, Amalek, who came to make war with Israel. Were they anti-Semites? Were they haters? If you study the origins of Amalek you see that the parents were the best of the gentiles, one a relative of the Jews, Elifaz, and the other perhaps the outstanding gentile woman in the world, Timna. Amalek was a highly spiritual family that fought Israel because they did not accept that Israel was G-d's Chosen People. Amalek itself was spiritual and wanted that roll, or at least, it hated Israel for rejecting Amalek, as actually happened, but that is another topic. We find that the mighty genius Bilaam, the sorcerer, was in this category. He prayed to G-d to destroy the Jews so that gentiles could be G-d's Chosen People, but G-d turned his mouth to utter blessings for the Jews. This is surely not classical hatred of Jews as we in the modern world understand it.

We learn from the above that in biblical times most gentiles had a great respect for the early Israelites, until the Jews declined and sold their brother, and then, they entered a lowly state and slavery. Even then we don't find the modern hate of Jews in the bible.

To leap forward in Jewish history we come to the Babylonian King Nevuchadnezzar exiling the Jews to Iraq or Babylonia. He burned the First Temple and killed many Jews. And yet, the prophets and the rabbis make it clear that although we call him "wicked" for destroying the Temple, there was no hate of Jews in this king. Indeed, his highest ministers were great rabbis and his closest friends were prophets. He conquered because he was determined to conquer the world or for other reasons we don't have to go into now. But there was no anti-Semitism involved.

After the Babylonians came the Persians. Here, too, rabbis enjoyed very high and powerful positions, and the Jews became very prosperous. There were individuals such as Haman the Persian Prime Minister who plotted to wipe out the Jews, because he descended from Amalek, but the general trend was not one of hate. At one time the Queen of Persia and the Prime Minister were Jews. The Queen didn't go willingly, but at least, it wasn't anti-Semitism. Finally, the Persian King rebuilt the Second Temple and allowed the Jews to return to Israel. Most Jews refused to leave as they were prosperous and happy in exile.

In Jewish historic terms, we have covered very briefly the Egyptian Exile, the Babylonian Exile, and the Persian Exile. In each of these, Jews were honored by kings and became Prime Ministers. There were some bad moments, some very bad moments, but there was no anti-Semitism in the modern form as a hate of Judaism or Jews per se. There was, however, here and there, a hate for Jews as the Chosen People, by gentiles who were spiritual themselves and did not like G-d choosing Jews. This led to great hate, but it wasn't the same as the modern denigration of the Jew as a lower thing.

We come now to the Greek Exile, which began under Alexander the Great. Alexander the Great conquered Persia and Israel, and came to Jerusalem in triumph. His generals wanted to plunder, but Alexander honored the High Priest Simon and refused to harm the Jews in any way. Out of appreciation, the Jews named their sons Alexander, a custom that has lasted to this day. But when Alexander died, his generals began a hideous exile for Israel, and treated the Jews in the worst way. Here ended the biblical era's good times for Jews among the nations. The new Greeks, after Alexander, were tyrants, vicious and wicked. The Jews hated them because they robbed and raped and because they tried to destroy the Jewish religion. Finally, the High Priest Matisyohu rebelled against the mighty Greek armies and defeated them. But the Jews in the Greek Era, or the Second Temple Period, loathed the Greeks and the Greeks loathed them.

The Greeks ran naked to show their physical beauty. The Jews prized modesty. The Jews honored women. The Greek governor would come to a Jewish wedding and rape the bride in front of everyone. The Jews hated idols, and the Greeks tried to force the Jews to worship idols.

After a period of time, the Jews lost their independence when Rome conquered Israel. The Romans were better behaved than the Greeks, and the rabbis in general had a very good relationship with the Roman courts, with exceptions for when the Jews rebelled against Rome. But Rome was a terrible tyrant, and followed the Greek idea of forcing others to worship as the Romans did. The Romans wanted to break the Jewish religions, even thought there were many Romans who had good relations with the rabbis. The Romans burnt Rabbi Chananyeh ben Tradyone to death, slowly, because he taught Torah in public.

Thus, Greece and Rome tried to destroy the Torah and they terrorized the Jews. The Talmud was written during the Roman conquest, and reflected teachings from the Greek conquest. If a gentile meant a Greek or a Roman, no nice things would be said. But if a gentile meant a Persian, the Talmud says, "I love the Persians." Even among the Romans, there were good Emperors, the best being Antoninus who had an excellent relationship with Rabbi Yehuda the Prince. Perhaps due to this relationship, Rabbi  Yehuda became fabulously wealthy and the Jews prospered. When Rabbi Joshua went to the Roman Royal Court the mother of the Emperor would personally greet him with warm words and great respect. The Talmud has many stories of Rabbi Joshua and his discussions with  the Emperor and his immediate family.

Therefore, if we bring ourselves up to date after the various exiles, we would say that relations with gentiles were very good from the earliest biblical times until the Greeks and Romans. The Greeks were a disaster, but the Romans were a mixed bag. We see in the Greeks a complete contempt of the Jew, but with the Romans there is a definite relationship with the Jew and a certain perhaps grudging acceptance by the Romans that the Jews were unique. The Talmud suggests that this is because the Romans descend from Esau, the brother of Jacob.

The Roman exile was not one of anti-Semitism in the modern sense, and Jews won much admiration in the Royal Court.

The problems began in the time of Constantine. He converted to Christianity and Ambrose was his priest. Ambrose ordered Constantine to kill all of the Jews and anyone who refused Christianity. Only the fall of Rome prevented this happening. Also, the disciple of Ambrose, Augustine, was not satisfied with dead Jews. He wanted converted Jews. Rome, under the influence of Augustine, then initiated the modern anti-Semitism, teaching that being a Jew was in of itself an affront to the church and the state, and that all Jews must be humiliated and harassed until they convert.

From that time to the present we have anti-Semitism in its modern form. The official state religion condemns Jews and seeks to force them to convert. It does this by demonizing the Jew, making lies about him, falsifying his religion, until the Jew becomes a creature with horns that drinks the blood of Christian children and assorted horror stories. A major point of attack is the Talmud, when taken out of context, can provide the haters with an excuse to demonize and punish the Jews and force them to convert.

Today, because of the Middle East situation, the Moslem world is supportive of hating Jews. Their schools and culture are filled with the kind of material once popular in Christian countries. Because the Holocaust cast the church in a bad light, because the Catholics backed Hitler on the orders of the Vatican and brought him to power, the church had to back down from its traditional official hate of Jews. But other Christians, the Protestants, have never changed their dogma. They believe that a Jew whose entire life is spent doing goodness and kindness will  be sent to hell. But a Christian who does terrible sins and comes to heaven will be rewarded because he believes.

I say to those who want me to convert. G-d chose Israel and the Jewish people and swore to never turn away from them. Anyone who calls G-d a liar and says that G-d changed His Mind and broke his word is a blasphemer. Such a person will come to heaven and be asked, "Why did you call Me a liar? Why did you say I changed My Mind?"

The haters twist the Talmud to "prove" that people like me rape little girls, steal from non-Jews, think that gentiles are what they think about Jews, etc. All of this is the work of hate, but I suppose I will have to discuss the various passages individually, because these challenges must be answered.

 
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Masha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1205
Re: Please help debunk these "quotes" from Talmud
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2010, 02:27:14 AM »
Oh, look, I am partly answering myself:

http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/van_hyning.html
"Midrash Talpioth, 225-L.  This is not a volume of the Talmud. It is something composed by a Turkish Jew in the 18th century. His name was Elijah ben Solomom Abraham, ha-Kohen."

Still not a nice thing to say by this Jew about Gentiles, but quite a different story than having this sentiment encoded in the Midrash.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Please help debunk these "quotes" from Talmud
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2010, 02:28:23 AM »
Continued...

The next passage we will study is the idea that non-Jews are not human. This idea does not exist in the Talmud or anywhere else, for one simple reason. A non-Jew has a soul, and when G-d created the world there were no Jews. G-d said, "Let us make ADAM in our image and our form" and He meant gentiles. Thus, Jews are not the only ones called "Adam" or person.

Furthermore, every Jewish child begins studying the bible in Leviticus, where it says, "A man (Adam) who brings an offering to G-d." The first offering discussed is a burnt offering, and gentiles bring it, even pagans. Therefore, they are "Adam" or people. The person who translated that gentiles are not ADAM as not being human  made a mistake. Adam is not a word that defines people relative to animals. It defines people relative to G-d and holiness. We must know the context besides the exact translation.

We say that someone is a person, meaning a good person. We say, "He is a man," meaning, a special man. Adam can also have two meanings. It means a regular Adam, a human being with a soul who can know G-d, and it can also mean a higher man. A non-Jew, a pagan or a gentile, are surely "human" and not only the word "human" applies to them but also the word Adam applies to them as they all have souls. But when we refer to the highest level of a human, we may refer to something special. For instance, the Talmud and Zohar say that a man who is not married is not a "ADAM," because "it is not good for a man to be alone." Thus, an unmarried man is not a "Adam." Of course, he is human. But even a Jew or a High Priest without a wife is not "Adam" in the highest sense of the word.

The Talmud says that a gentile or pagan who studies Torah is like a High Priest, but this does not mean that a pagan or a gentile has achieved the highest level of humanity, which is accepting the yoke of Judaism. On the other hand, the Jews are only the clergy of the human race, and are a tiny people. Everyone else is Adam but not clergy. We respect clergy as they are special, but this does not denigrate others to say they are "not human."

Another quote from the Talmud that seems to indicate, according to the questioner, a "legal supremacy of Jews over gentiles" is that about goring oxen. A Jewish ox gores the ox of a Canaanite and the Jew doesn't have to pay. A Canaanite ox gores a Jewish ox and has to pay the full amount. This clearly seems to be a problem, but if this indicates that Jews don't care about money of non-Jews, why did the Talmud limit itself to oxen? Let it just say a Jew has no liability to a gentile, and may take money from a gentile or damage or steal his property, or whatever other phraseology is warranted to show what the challengers think the Talmud is saying, that Jews can take the money of gentiles.

 

We find the solution in Maimonides in his Code. Maimonides teaches from sources in the Talmud that stealing from a gentile is a sin, just like stealing from a Jew, and if one steals money from a gentile he must return it. If a Jew uses false weights to steal from a gentile the bible and Talmud call him an abomination. So what is different about a Jewish ox goring a gentile ox?

Maimonides explains that the civil law, at least in the time of the Talmud when this law was made, requires one to pay for damages he personally did, but did not obligate him to pay for damages done by his animals. Thus, when a gentile sues a Jew in Jewish court because the Jewish ox gored the gentile's ox, we tell him that his law does not recognize this as a liability and we will judge him by his laws. But if a gentile ox gores a Jewish ox we make him pay the full amount. This is because gentiles in those days were not careful about their animals (because they would not be liable for damages done by them). Because of all of the damage done by gentile oxen let loose without stopping them from goring other oxen, the rabbis decreed that the gentiles are fully liable. Again, note that only with oxen do we find this double standard, and Maimonides explains it.

By the way, those hundreds of websites out there attacking the wording of the Talmud, let me ask a simple question: Why are there not hundreds of websites attacking the books of other religions? If you are looking for supremacy and hate, why look in the Talmud, which is simply rabbis talking about Jewish law, when you can talk about other religions who slaughtered huge numbers of "non-believers" and kidnapped their children, made forced conversions, and showed "supremacy" in every area? Why spend so much energy with the Talmud when Jews during the Talmudic period never went around slaughtering people as other religions did, when you can go after hate literature in other religions that actually encouraged and does encourage people to commit the most heinous crimes? Huh? I am waiting for an answer to that.

...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Masha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1205
Re: Please help debunk these "quotes" from Talmud
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2010, 02:34:43 AM »
Quote
From that time to the present we have anti-Semitism in its modern form. The official state religion condemns Jews and seeks to force them to convert. It does this by demonizing the Jew, making lies about him, falsifying his religion, until the Jew becomes a creature with horns that drinks the blood of Christian children and assorted horror stories. A major point of attack is the Talmud, when taken out of context, can provide the haters with an excuse to demonize and punish the Jews and force them to convert.

Today, because of the Middle East situation, the Moslem world is supportive of hating Jews. Their schools and culture are filled with the kind of material once popular in Christian countries. Because the Holocaust cast the church in a bad light, because the Catholics backed Hitler on the orders of the Vatican and brought him to power, the church had to back down from its traditional official hate of Jews. But other Christians, the Protestants, have never changed their dogma. They believe that a Jew whose entire life is spent doing goodness and kindness will  be sent to hell. But a Christian who does terrible sins and comes to heaven will be rewarded because he believes.

I don't know that I agree with this. This writer makes it sound like muslims learned anti-semitism from Christians. But this is not so.

Offline Masha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1205
Re: Please help debunk these "quotes" from Talmud
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2010, 02:48:14 AM »
Continued...

The next passage we will study is the idea that non-Jews are not human. This idea does not exist in the Talmud or anywhere else, for one simple reason. A non-Jew has a soul, and when G-d created the world there were no Jews. G-d said, "Let us make ADAM in our image and our form" and He meant gentiles. Thus, Jews are not the only ones called "Adam" or person.

Furthermore, every Jewish child begins studying the bible in Leviticus, where it says, "A man (Adam) who brings an offering to G-d." The first offering discussed is a burnt offering, and gentiles bring it, even pagans. Therefore, they are "Adam" or people. The person who translated that gentiles are not ADAM as not being human  made a mistake. Adam is not a word that defines people relative to animals. It defines people relative to G-d and holiness. We must know the context besides the exact translation.

We say that someone is a person, meaning a good person. We say, "He is a man," meaning, a special man. Adam can also have two meanings. It means a regular Adam, a human being with a soul who can know G-d, and it can also mean a higher man. A non-Jew, a pagan or a gentile, are surely "human" and not only the word "human" applies to them but also the word Adam applies to them as they all have souls. But when we refer to the highest level of a human, we may refer to something special. For instance, the Talmud and Zohar say that a man who is not married is not a "ADAM," because "it is not good for a man to be alone." Thus, an unmarried man is not a "Adam." Of course, he is human. But even a Jew or a High Priest without a wife is not "Adam" in the highest sense of the word.

The Talmud says that a gentile or pagan who studies Torah is like a High Priest, but this does not mean that a pagan or a gentile has achieved the highest level of humanity, which is accepting the yoke of Judaism. On the other hand, the Jews are only the clergy of the human race, and are a tiny people. Everyone else is Adam but not clergy. We respect clergy as they are special, but this does not denigrate others to say they are "not human."

Another quote from the Talmud that seems to indicate, according to the questioner, a "legal supremacy of Jews over gentiles" is that about goring oxen. A Jewish ox gores the ox of a Canaanite and the Jew doesn't have to pay. A Canaanite ox gores a Jewish ox and has to pay the full amount. This clearly seems to be a problem, but if this indicates that Jews don't care about money of non-Jews, why did the Talmud limit itself to oxen? Let it just say a Jew has no liability to a gentile, and may take money from a gentile or damage or steal his property, or whatever other phraseology is warranted to show what the challengers think the Talmud is saying, that Jews can take the money of gentiles.

 

We find the solution in Maimonides in his Code. Maimonides teaches from sources in the Talmud that stealing from a gentile is a sin, just like stealing from a Jew, and if one steals money from a gentile he must return it. If a Jew uses false weights to steal from a gentile the bible and Talmud call him an abomination. So what is different about a Jewish ox goring a gentile ox?

Maimonides explains that the civil law, at least in the time of the Talmud when this law was made, requires one to pay for damages he personally did, but did not obligate him to pay for damages done by his animals. Thus, when a gentile sues a Jew in Jewish court because the Jewish ox gored the gentile's ox, we tell him that his law does not recognize this as a liability and we will judge him by his laws. But if a gentile ox gores a Jewish ox we make him pay the full amount. This is because gentiles in those days were not careful about their animals (because they would not be liable for damages done by them). Because of all of the damage done by gentile oxen let loose without stopping them from goring other oxen, the rabbis decreed that the gentiles are fully liable. Again, note that only with oxen do we find this double standard, and Maimonides explains it.

By the way, those hundreds of websites out there attacking the wording of the Talmud, let me ask a simple question: Why are there not hundreds of websites attacking the books of other religions? If you are looking for supremacy and hate, why look in the Talmud, which is simply rabbis talking about Jewish law, when you can talk about other religions who slaughtered huge numbers of "non-believers" and kidnapped their children, made forced conversions, and showed "supremacy" in every area? Why spend so much energy with the Talmud when Jews during the Talmudic period never went around slaughtering people as other religions did, when you can go after hate literature in other religions that actually encouraged and does encourage people to commit the most heinous crimes? Huh? I am waiting for an answer to that.

...


Thank you, Muman.

Offline MassuhDGoodName

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4542
Re: Please help debunk these "quotes" from Talmud
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2010, 03:13:18 AM »
Sadly, those who print and believe such lies about Judaism will never be convinced by any evidence proving the contrary.


Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2284
  • "The Necromancers Could Not Stand Before Moses."
Re: Please help debunk these "quotes" from Talmud
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2010, 03:56:32 AM »
We all have Adam as a singular common proto-ancestor because we are not supposed to be jealous of another's lineage or ancestry [G-d could have created many humans all at once, however He did not.].
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Please help debunk these "quotes" from Talmud
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2010, 05:20:41 AM »
Never come across that, it's not real Torah. Don't think anything of it.

Offline Spiraling Leopard

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5423
  • Eternal Vigilance
    • PIGtube-channel:
Re: Please help debunk these "quotes" from Talmud
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2010, 06:39:02 AM »
This is quite an interesting thread.
Maybe these explanations can be put in a special section somewhere to debunk anti-Judaïsm lies.

Offline The One and Only Mo

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4963
Re: Please help debunk these "quotes" from Talmud
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2010, 07:58:49 AM »
This is quite an interesting thread.
Maybe these explanations can be put in a special section somewhere to debunk anti-Judaïsm lies.

I agree. I say we put it right next to the pro-Muslim lies.

Offline Ulli

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10946
Re: Please help debunk these "quotes" from Talmud
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2010, 12:48:22 PM »
It is interesting. A Jew who nearly nobody knows today, wrote before a few hundred years something down. Now people pick it up and generalize it in order to make other people believe, that this Midrasch Talpioth  ??? is an integral part of mainstream Jewish teaching.

If I would take this standart and would apply it on other groups, I could even make the Hutterites look like murderous bloodthirsty crusaders.

This propaganda is so poor that only Muslims and Nazis are able to believe it.

P.S. I even don't know the context. Perhaps was this quote from it only an issue of a discussion.
"Cities run by progressives don't know how to police. ... Thirty cities went up last night, I went and looked at every one of them. Every one of them has a progressive Democratic mayor." Rudolph Giuliani

Offline AsheDina

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5665
  • PSALMS 129:5 "ZION" THE Cornerstone.
Re: Please help debunk these "quotes" from Talmud
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2010, 01:36:38 PM »
U know what I find really peculiar?  Is that there are MANY gentiles, white, arab, black etc, that talk bad about ALL Jews, yet we have to justify something that was written for SURVIVAL 1700-2000 years ago.....
SHEMA ISRAEL
שמע ישראל
I endorse NO Presidential Candidates