JTF characterized as "weak , ineffectual and pathetic"

[JTFenthusiast2]

In a conversation I had with another Right wing Jew, my only friend who is right wing by jtf standards, he said that JTF's lack of a presence at the downtown 911 mosque protest showed what a bunch of "pathetic do-nothing Jews" do on an Internet forum. He added the real Jews fighting for survival would have been and that demonstration.  He said except for Chaim's work, we were all a bunch of pathetic sissies who are full of hot air.  In truth, I didn't know how to respond to this without making excuses, none of which I really had anyway.   Oh and I almost forgot, he also wanted to know that why if we are 'so outraged' that we couldn't take "2 hours out for our fellow Americans"

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

In a conversation I had with another Right wing Jew, my only friend who is right wing by jtf standards, he said that JTF's lack of a presence at the downtown 911 mosque protest showed what a bunch of "pathetic do-nothing Jews" do on an Internet forum. He added the real Jews fighting for survival would have been and that demonstration.  He said except for Chaim's work, we were all a bunch of pathetic sissies who are full of hot air.  In truth, I didn't know how to respond to this without making excuses, none of which I really had anyway.   Oh and I almost forgot, he also wanted to know that why if we are 'so outraged' that we couldn't take "2 hours out for our fellow Americans"

How does he know no JTF'ers went?

Did HE go?

And if he was there, did he poll everyone in attendance about whether they were JTF'ers?   

This guy has something against JTF regardless of any mosque.   You can't see that?  In your own friend?

[Zelhar]

Well for start I would say he'd better give constructive criticism rather than a rant.

PS, don't forget Bilbo Baggins.

[JTFenthusiast2]

Well for start I would say he'd better give constructive criticism rather than a rant.

PS, don't forget Bilbo Baggins.

No Zelhar, he was there of course.  He says that he is on this forum.  I think he is a Jew who puts his money where his mouth is, meaning he doesn't hold back in what he thinks.  I saw the point in his criticism about the protest.  I know he respects Chaim's work and he is extremely proud of the Hilltop youth

[Lisa]

Who is he on the forum?

[JTFenthusiast2]

Who is he on the forum?

Good question.  He wouldn't say, but I know he has followed jtf for years.  I know this bec. I have known him for about 8 years.  We aren't very good friend, but I trust him as being a strong Jew who cares about Anerica and Israel.  He also usu. Isn't so adamant. He understood that I had to cover for someone sick and that I couldn't go...which is how this whole conversation got started

[Dr. Dan]

meh...some of us are activist activists and some of us put our two cents in..others of us donate...

but this forum isn't want it used to be with a bunch of immature blowing off steam.

[JTFenthusiast2]

Yes and the more we do, the more we are involved, in whatever ways possible, the better.  I wasn't really sure how to answer him.

[Dr. Dan]

Just say, "Savlanoot"

In time JTF will make the tipping point.

[AsheDina]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, not all of us live in NYC, or even NY, hello??

 I have got my hands full in Arizona. We are VERY involved here, I am def. NOT a 'blowhard' I never have been.

I was VERY active in NYC.  David and I stood up at the Conservative party and told their a $$es off- all the time, Where were these people for the last 15 years? I had a gun at my back, car broken into by illegals, apartment stoned by illegals, I stood up to city hall and got the Guardian Angels of S.F. to come to my town, and I am ALWAYS active!

That is a brash judgement call.

The problem is not the mosque, the problem is NYC GOVERNMENT allowing it. Until people realize this, the mosque WILL go up.  

(Just one thing; All of these other bloggers and people want NOTHING to do with us, so this to me, is BS. I get copied on EVERY MAJOR NEWS SITE, and we get ZERO time. People hate our gutts, want nothing to do with us.
So, we are not the problem, it is moderate conservatives that brush us off, so why should we have ANYTHING to do with these people?) 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I still think it's quite possible that there were JTF'ers in attendance.   RWgentile may have been there, wolf may have been there, chinese kahanist may have been there, Lisa may have been there, gimatria and others from the nyc area may have been at the protest.  How would one know who is a jtfer and who isn't?  It wasn't an organized jtf appearance because frankly I dont think we have  enough people for that.   But individuals certainly may have been there.... And there will be another protest apparently in sept, so people who couldn't make it can go then.

[eb22]

JTFenthusiast2,      regarding what your friend mentioned,    one thing he needs to realize is that JTF and VJA needs to raise much more money.     JTF/  VJA gets more out of its dollars raised than practically any organization on the planet.        However,   JTF/  VJA raises only 10 tens of thousands of dollars each year,   not the multi-multi million dollars that countless other organizations raise.       There's only so much this organization can do at present.

What I suggest to your friend is to support JTF/  VJA financially if he hasn't.     And to help heavily promote the organization on the Internet and to people he knows who can become members.      The more people that are aware of JTF,   the more publicity the organization will get and hence the more money JTF will raise.      A much higher budget would enable JTF/  VJA to focus on much more in Israel and in the United States.     Then eventually elsewhere,   as the organization grows.

[TheCoon]

Sorry I can't leave my job/family and travel to NY City from Ontario, Canada for a do-nothing protest. Did he assume we all live in the NY area or something?

Your friend sounds like a stupid idiot and I hope he reads that. You know what's so stupid sad? These dumb "conservative" idiots like your friend may eventually get the mosque moved to NJ state land or NY state land or whatever. They'll take that as a real victory for America and conservatives, meanwhile dozens of other mega mosques are being built around America and this nazi NYC megamosque will STILL GET BUILT ELSEWHERE. The affront shouldn't be where this mosque is built but the fact it is being built at all. With all due respect to the people leading the protests like Pamela Gellar, etc, until they can stand up and say freely "WE DON'T WANT NO stupid MOSQUES IN AMERICA," the "victory" of this mosque being built elsewhere is entirely hollow.

Conservative morons like your friend have made this stupid mosque into a wedge issue instead of focusing on the REAL PROBLEMS in America like uncontrolled illegal immigration, America's national debt skyrocketing, spending on insane programs like Obamacare, creeping communism, education system churning out illiterate morons, China owning your entire country, inner cities that resemble war zones, being in Iraq and Afghanistan and at war for longer than Germany/Japan combined, etc, etc. You know, the real problems with America, not some stupid mosque being built near ground zero. Rather than come up with solutions to the real problems, they're yelling about a stupid mosque. I'll tell you what, America needs to tell these muslim scum they gotta LEAVE.

Your friend is part of the disease destroying America. He is no different than Obama. So as Antoine Dodson would say, RUN AND TELL THAT, HOMEBOY!

[AsheDina]

Coon:
The problem is the GOVERNMENT, and I agree with you, Which is why I posted on illegals today on my blog, b/c this bubonic plague of bedbugs all over NYC is OUT OF CONTROL!

 Protesting is not going to change things. Throwing the evil pig mayor OUT of office is a start.
 MEN will have to do this.

[TheCoon]

That's it. You need real men and women leading the country to turn it back to what it was before all the socialist nonsense took over. But yeah, let's stop this mosque from being built. That's definitely the most important problem facing America.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

Does your "rightwing" Jewish friend know that Jews are not allowed to live in America? Does he know that it is a terrible sin for a Jew to live outside of the Land of Israel?

Does he know that JTF funds the greatest Jewish heroes of our generation in Judea and Samaria who put their lives on the line every day to prevent Israeli national suicide? He thinks a demonstration in New York is more important than what JTF is doing in the life and death struggle for Israel's survival?

While sitting in New York, in the galut (exile), your friend ridicules a movement that is essential to the Jews who are on the front line in the battle for little Israel's survival. That is true chutzpah.

[christians4jews]

Lbe honest here, how many live in newyork as previous posters have mentioned???

I live in the UK, we have indian members, serbian members, german members, canadian members, israeli members. In fact i would bet 50 percent of our movement dont even live in america let alone newyork.

I think the guy assumes that because Chaims based in newyork, everyoe else is..

[JTFenthusiast2]

Everyone raised a lot of good points, but I still think he had a point.

1.  To Coon's point: 'Dave' was only referring to people living in NYC and the metro area.  He was not referring to people living even 50 miles away. He meant the 5 boroughs and lower Westchester county, maybe the part of NJ that is very close to the City.
2.  To Chaim's point, I don't think you should challenge his degree of Jewishness.  He supports the Hilltop Youth, is an Orthodox Jew, and a proud Zionist.  He stated that Jews are obligated to be loyal to the Nations in which they live and they are obligated to be a light unto the Nations wherever they live.  He believes that Jews should be patriots and that being a patriot means showing up for your country.  And I agree with him on that point.  If you live in America and see America going in the wrong direction, he believes that we are commanded by the Torah to stand up for our Nation, Jews, and our Nation, the US.
3.  To KWRBRT's point:  No he has no idea who from here actually showed up.  You're absolutely right. I think he assumed that, perhaps incorrectly, by the paultry response several of us got when we tried to make threads on this subject.  I was surprised that he knew that.
4.  He does give money to Jewish Zionist causes.  I have no idea if he gives money to JTF, but I know he supports Zionists of America and I know he sends money to Israel.
5.  Ashedina, he wasn't talking about anyone of us specifically (though he was initialy talking about me), he was saying as a group, 'where were we (the collective we) since many of us do live in NYC.

Finally, I don't think he was right in his characterization and I definitely wouldn't have said we were pathetic, but I see his point.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

2.  To Chaim's point, I don't think you should challenge his degree of Jewishness.  He supports the Hilltop Youth, is an Orthodox Jew, and a proud Zionist.  He stated that Jews are obligated to be loyal to the Nations in which they live and they are obligated to be a light unto the Nations wherever they live.  He believes that Jews should be patriots and that being a patriot means showing up for your country.  And I agree with him on that point.  If you live in America and see America going in the wrong direction, he believes that we are commanded by the Torah to stand up for our Nation, Jews, and our Nation, the US.

This may or may not be true, but even if it is, pointing out the inherent contradiction in terms of a zionist and Kahanist living in an exile country is not questioning someone's Jewishness.  It's simply a hard dose of reality.  If someone is so dutiful and patriotic, they should be dutiful and patriotic to their actual land as a Jew, which is Israel -with the Jews living there, and NOT the diaspora.   Not going there, no matter how much we don't like to hear it, is not living up to our duty.   And no amount of American patriotism can ever make up for that.   Granted, I don't know the personal circumstances of your friend, nor do I dare speculate about them.   I only want to point out that I don't believe your accusation is accurate.

3.  To KWRBRT's point:  No he has no idea who from here actually showed up.  You're absolutely right. I think he assumed that, perhaps incorrectly, by the paultry response several of us got when we tried to make threads on this subject.  I was surprised that he knew that.

I'm not completely sold on organizing an official JTF presence at an event like this because that may only include a handful of members who live in the area and are available to participate.   That may make our "movement" appear to be a handful of people with signs, when really that's not the extent of our movement.   Maybe this is a potential problem in doing something like that as opposed to just having individual members show up.

[JTFenthusiast2]

KWRBRT:

Living as a patriotic Jew in America while being a Zionist is an obligation for any Jew living in the diaspora.  Not every Jew believes that all Jews are commanded to live in Israel without regard to family or circumstance.  To criticize a Jew ONLY for not living in Israel is a criticism not worth much as a premise in this argument. How you live your life is FAR more important to G-d, than WHERE you live your life.  There is a reason for everything in the Torah and not everyone agrees with JTF's interpretation including the Chabad Rebbe and other respected Jewish scholars.  Jews should not leave countries because they are pushed out. If we choose to leave because we want to, that is entirely different than being persecuted out.  There is nothing glorious or holy about being shoved out of your native land if and only if you get shoved out to Israel.   That's an accident of which the person had no volitional involvement.  So I think knocking my friend for not living in Israel as a way of attacking his opinion is not a very strong argument.

And my friend did not say that we shouldn't be helping in Judea and Samaria.  Unfortunately, instead of trying to see a valid point, people jump to all kinds of assumptions, not mentioned in the initial post.  I think it's crazy that more people on this forum who are religious Jews don't feel an obligation to America.  It doesn't mean one should stay here if we are threatened and we have lost--but why people are so into pre-destination, I dont know

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

To Chaim's point, I don't think you should challenge his degree of Jewishness.  He supports the Hilltop Youth, is an Orthodox Jew, and a proud Zionist.  He stated that Jews are obligated to be loyal to the Nations in which they live and they are obligated to be a light unto the Nations wherever they live.  He believes that Jews should be patriots and that being a patriot means showing up for your country.  And I agree with him on that point.  If you live in America and see America going in the wrong direction, he believes that we are commanded by the Torah to stand up for our Nation, Jews, and our Nation, the US.

Here is what Torah Judaism teaches about a Jew who lives outside of the Land of Israel:

A person should always live in Eretz Yisrael, even in a city that
is mostly inhabited by non-Jews, and not in the exile, even
in a city that is mostly inhabited by Jews. For all those that live
in Eretz Yisrael are as if they have a G-d, and all those that live
in the exile are as if they have no G-d. As it says (Vayikra
25:38 ) ”[I took you out of Mitzrayim] to give you the land of
Cna’an to be a G-d for you”. And anyone that lives in the
exile has no G-d? Rather, it means that anyone that lives
in the exile is as if he worships idols, and similarly by
David it says (Shmuel I 26:19)” for they have driven me out
this day that I should not cleave unto the inheritance of G-d,
saying: Go, serve other gods.” For who told David to worship
other gods? Rather, it means that anyone that lives in the
exile is as if he worships idols.
Ketuvot 110b

Thus:

1. Chazal state that we must live in Israel even if it means living in a city with a non-Jewish majority. We must not live in the exile, even if we live in a city in the exile that has a Jewish majority.

2. Those who live in Israel are like Jews who have a G-d. Those who live in the exile are like Jews who have no G-d. Which Chazal explain as meaning: Jews who live outside of Israel are like idol-worshippers.

Furthermore, the Ramban quotes Sifri in teaching us that "living in Eretz Yisrael is comparable to all the other mitzvot (Torah commandments) combined".

How much more so is this true when we have a modern Jewish state with Jewish sovereignty.

Your friend calls himself an "Orthodox" Jew and a "proud Zionist" while living in America? And he thinks Jews have a right to live in the galut and must be loyal to the countries they live in? And he demands that Jews get involved in American issues like the building of mosques in New York? And he condemns JTF Jews who are helping their fellow Jews in the struggle for Israel's survival because they do not go to a demonstration in New York? It is precisely this type of warped and un-Jewish thinking that brings punishment upon the Jewish people.

The reason I am judging your friend this way is because he labels JTF "weak, ineffectual and pathetic".  If someone attacks us unjustly, we will respond with the truth. And the truth is your friend is an un-Jewish hypocrite.

I am very much against this Nazi mosque. But I am even more against "Orthodox" Jews and "proud Zionists" who justify the terrible sin of living outside of Israel and who are more worried about a mosque in New York than about the mosques on the Temple Mount.

Your friend gives money to establishment groups like the ZOA instead of JTF? Talk about "weak, ineffectual and pathetic".

JTF is the most effective Jewish group in the world dollar for dollar. With a budget of only tens of thousands of dollars, we are influencing what goes on in the campaign to save Judea and Samaria.

[Dr. Dan]

That's it. You need real men and women leading the country to turn it back to what it was before all the socialist nonsense took over. But yeah, let's stop this mosque from being built. That's definitely the most important problem facing America.

"no mosque here. No mosque there. No Nazi mosques anywhere"

[JTFenthusiast2]

Chaim,


I didnt agree with his characterization, but your accusing him of things he never said, did, or thought.  He wasn't saying anything about JTF's actions in Israel, he was commenting on his perception of our lack of action here where it is needed.  Judea and Samaria aren't the only places in the world that need careful thoughtful Jewish activism.  I wrote in the initial post that he supports the Hilltop Youth.  The Zionists of America are not the equivalent of the mainstream Jewish organizations that JTF disparages.  To compare them to the ADL is not accurate.  The ZOA are proud Jews.  I clearly can't argue for him with you on his points about Jews living in the Galut.  But I know enough to know that there in not one unifying viewpoint.  Or if there is, then why did the Chabad Rebbe live in Brooklyn? Why si that headquarters at 770, and not Jerusalem, or why do other respected Rabbis live in the Galut?  Why didn't Maimonides live his entire life in the Holy Land of the 12th century?
I think I am going to drop this.  His response was about one thing: our actions regarding the Mosque.  You are mentioning all of these other issues which you think are fodder for attacking my friend, knowing that I can't possibly speak to his mind on any of this.  My choice of a thread was, in retrospect, a bad one.  He does think our actions regarding this were insufficient.  You don't agree.  I am not sure our actions or my own here were sufficient either.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

JTF [Chaim] predicted the Muslim jihadists returning to the twin towers and finishing the job [after the WTC bombing in 1993].  Had all other Jewish organizations listened to JTF and adopted a JTF hardened stance in the media and lobbying in Washington, 9/11 would have never happened [most likely], and this hideous mosque would never have been even conceptualized.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBRT:

Living as a patriotic Jew in America while being a Zionist is an obligation for any Jew living in the diaspora.  Not every Jew believes that all Jews are commanded to live in Israel without regard to family or circumstance. 

Whether many or few Jews believe it or not, facts are facts.

How you live your life is FAR more important to G-d, than WHERE you live your life. 

How else do we determine what is "important to G-d" than by examining what the halacha says to do?   Can we really contradict the halacha with a premise and claim that such a premise defines what is "important to G-d?"

Logically speaking, even if how one lives is more important, where one lives is also still important in itself.   But Judaism doesn't function with this type of dichotomy you set up.   Because where one lives is also one component of the overall scheme of "How one lives."   The scheme of "How one lives" is the halacha and its associated ethics.   It has many precepts, but one of which is that Jews should live in the land of Israel.  It is of essential importance.

  There is a reason for everything in the Torah and not everyone agrees with JTF's interpretation including the Chabad Rebbe and other respected Jewish scholars.  Jews should not leave countries because they are pushed out.

That's not the claim of JTF. Or me.  Or the halacha.

If we choose to leave because we want to, that is entirely different than being persecuted out. 

And the Torah instructs us what we are supposed to choose when it is practically possible and there are not other exceptional circumstances which the halacha allows as the legitimate exceptions.

  There is nothing glorious or holy about being shoved out of your native land if and only if you get shoved out to Israel.   That's an accident of which the person had no volitional involvement.  So I think knocking my friend for not living in Israel as a way of attacking his opinion is not a very strong argument.   

I don't think you understand the argument.   No one demanded he goes to the white house and gets himself shoved out of America by antagonizing the state dept officials... or stirring up antisemitism?   I'm not sure what you are saying here.   The criticism is the CHOICE, of choosing America over the land of Israel as the place to reside.   No one forces a person to choose America.  America allows emigration.

And my friend did not say that we shouldn't be helping in Judea and Samaria.  Unfortunately, instead of trying to see a valid point, people jump to all kinds of assumptions, not mentioned in the initial post. 

Fair enough, I just think you need to understand where the particular criticism in reference is coming from and what it actually entails. 

I think it's crazy that more people on this forum who are religious Jews don't feel an obligation to America.

Obligation to do what exactly?  Obligation in what way?   We all do have obligations, like any other citizen.  We have to pay taxes and serve in jury duty. 

It doesn't mean one should stay here if we are threatened and we have lost--but why people are so into pre-destination, I dont know

The Jewish law of the Talmud encourages Jews to settle the land of Israel as a positive mitzvah, regardless of whether the diaspora country they are temporary guests/residents in likes them or not.  Regardless of whether foreign leaders tell them to get out or not.   The Torah encourages us to make the choice on our own to embrace our homeland.