Author Topic: Can someone who knows Hebrew and Jewish customs help me with the shebet (rod)?  (Read 3344 times)

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Offline momofsixbabes

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What does it mean

 “Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.” Proverbs 23:13,14

What does the word shebet (excuse spelling if wrong) mean in the context of the Jewish traditions and customs? Thanks for your time.

Offline muman613

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Of course this portion is discussing discipline of children...

Here is some of what Chabad writes on this subject:

http://mobile.chabad.org/m/article_cdo/aid/150544

Discipline

Our Rabbis taught:1

Greater is the assurance made by the Holy One, blessed be He, to women, than to men; for it says,2 “Rise up, you women of leisure; listen to My voice....” How do women earn [equivalent] merit? By bringing their children to the Beit HaMidrash and to the synagogue,3 and by waiting for their husbands to return from the Rabbinical academies.

The Shelah, in Shaar HaOtiot, writes:4

Like fathers, mothers are charged with the disciplining of their children—even more so. For mothers are not as preoccupied [with matters outside the home] as fathers are, and are more often at home with their children. Fathers, in contrast, are usually preoccupied [with other concerns]: If a father is a Torah scholar, he may be engrossed in his studies [to the extent that he] cannot keep tabs on his child’s activities; and if he is engaged in business and travel, then he is usually not at home.

Further, he writes there:

Since women are soft-hearted, they are obligated, in this area, to robe themselves in a cloak of masculinity: namely, to act stout-heartedly in admonishing their children with a “rod of correction.”5 A mother must strike her child as necessary, paying no attention to his complaints, until he turns from his wicked path, to a goodly and upright one. I would suggest that the verse,6 “The hands of compassionate women have boiled their children,” alludes to this matter. Meaning: those women who show compassion by not employing corporal punishment when called for, in fact, boil their children i.e., they slay them. It is as if they themselves slaughtered and cooked them. . . .

How truthful are his holy words! Indeed, such compassion is nothing but an act of sheer cruelty. A person who rebukes his son, admonishing him for all his errant ways and meanderings, he is a truly merciful parent. For this rebuke benefits his child in This World and in the World to Come, as explained above, and will be later amplified further.

The sagacious King Solomon, of blessed memory, advises,7 “Chastise your son while there is hope, and to his death do not pay heed.” The Reishit Chochmah explains8 that even if your son is obtuse, do not presume that reproach is futile. Rather, chastise your son, for through instruction and ethical guidance, there is hope. Though he may not have understood his lessons until now, perhaps from this point onward, he will. If he can’t understand a lot, he’ll absorb at least a little.9 Do not say, “If I chastise him further, he will die under the rod,” for the verse instructs us “to his death do not pay heed.” The author of the Reishit Chochmah writes further there:

The words “to his death” refer to a child’s screaming and crying. Thus the passage is interpreted as meaning: when you employ corporal punishment, have no compassion on him. Do not be merciful on account of his cries, for it is written,10 “You shall beat him with a rod and shall deliver his soul from She’ol.”

Similarly the verse says,11 “Do not spare a child from rebuke, for when you strike him with a rod, he shall not die.” The Metzudot Dovid comments,12 “He will not die from this [strict discipline]—it is only a small hurt.”

After an honest analysis of the matter, we will see that the damage and pain suffered by a child who grows up without guidance and ethical direction far exceeds that which he would endure were he punished for his misbehavior. For the puerile nature of a youngster brings him to behave in ways that are detrimental to his soul—Heaven forfend.

Similarly, if permitted to do so, he and his friends would play dangerous games, and one child might accidentally injure the other. Other forms of physical harm13 could also occur as a result, G‑d forbid.

Even greater, though, is the spiritual damage that he wreaks, for [through an undisciplined upbringing] he becomes unmanageable and completely unruly (in the vernacular: “wild”). This unruliness, in turn, gives rise to numerous specific problems:

The child listens to no one—not even to his parents—and brooks no interference to the fulfillment of his desires. He can neither concentrate nor focus his thoughts on even mundane matters—let alone on his Torah studies. Failing to hear what is spoken to him, he is oblivious to what he is taught. He eats without reciting a blessing, without washing his hands, and without saying the Grace after Meals.

Though still young, he unabashedly repudiates the words of his parents. And though they sternly rebuke him afterwards, it is to no avail; he remains unmoved and just runs away, and so forth. Many other types of harm will be incurred [by a child through neglecting to castigate him].

Consequently, parents must guide a child’s moral development at the very outset. For example, they should prevent their child from amusing himself according to the fancies of his capricious heart, as his juvenile nature prompts him. A child should be permitted to play only quietly, and only those games that are not dangerous, as noted above.

Similarly, they should compel him to study more than he is accustomed to (i.e., they should increase, from time to time, his responsibilities in Torah study, in accordance with his strength. As Rav Shmuel bar Shilas stated,14 “Feed a child Torah as you would feed an ox.”). Likewise, [parents should make increasingly greater demands of the child] in terms of him showing common courtesy, and exercising other commendable character traits—whether in his relationship with G‑d, or in his relations with people.

Although it may be onerous for him to sustain this, to constrain his youthful disposition and to bear the scholastic and ethical pressures placed on him—nevertheless it is merely a minor discomfort that will do him no physical harm. And if he does become a little enfeebled, this is no reason for concern. For once he becomes accustomed to his more difficult regimen, he’ll recoup his strength. This [temporary debility, at any rate] is far less severe than the bodily harm—and certainly the spiritual harm—that would be borne if the child were not properly raised.

Thus, when parents guide their child with ethical instruction, his soul benefits by acquiring Torah wisdom, and by [being inculcated with the trait of] self-subordination,15 and other good character traits and morals. But if the contrary is true, G‑d forbid, then his soul will be seriously injured. For then he grows up to be utterly insubordinate and dissolute in his relationship with G‑d and with the people around him.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Rubystars

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A child should be permitted to play only quietly, and only those games that are not dangerous, as noted above

No fun!

Ok I get the not dangerous part. The "Let's play chicken with cars on our bikes" game is not ok, but what about being loud? Can't children laugh, call to each other, and sing loudly, as long as it's not in a situation where it would be inappropriate?

Offline muman613

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Quote
A child should be permitted to play only quietly, and only those games that are not dangerous, as noted above

No fun!

Ok I get the not dangerous part. The "Let's play chicken with cars on our bikes" game is not ok, but what about being loud? Can't children laugh, call to each other, and sing loudly, as long as it's not in a situation where it would be inappropriate?

Tonight it is a big night for Jewish children. The Jewish child takes center stage on Pesach night. One of the biggest parts of the Seder is called "The Four Questions" during which the children ask four traditional questions, why this night is different from the other nights.

During Pesach a child should sing loudly and should be allowed to learn from the seder.

Some children can learn to play without bothering the adults. Over last Shabbat a lot of young couples with their children attended our minyan and it is surprising that children these days are capable of being so well behaved.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Rubystars

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Thanks Muman. I hate hearing loud children in stores, restaurants, etc. but I think on the playground or another appropriate situation children should be allowed to be loud.

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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A child should be permitted to play only quietly, and only those games that are not dangerous, as noted above

No fun!

Ok I get the not dangerous part. The "Let's play chicken with cars on our bikes" game is not ok, but what about being loud? Can't children laugh, call to each other, and sing loudly, as long as it's not in a situation where it would be inappropriate?

Tonight it is a big night for Jewish children. The Jewish child takes center stage on Pesach night. One of the biggest parts of the Seder is called "The Four Questions" during which the children ask four traditional questions, why this night is different from the other nights.

During Pesach a child should sing loudly and should be allowed to learn from the seder.

Some children can learn to play without bothering the adults. Over last Shabbat a lot of young couples with their children attended our minyan and it is surprising that children these days are capable of being so well behaved.

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