Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Are the Sages Infallible?
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on August 30, 2010, 10:18:04 PM ---
PS: I am obviously not referring to Rabbi Yosef in particular... But he is considered a Gedolim/Great Rabbi.
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That would be Gadol, muman. Gedolim is plural. Gadol is the singular. It means a great person. Or in the plural, great people.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on August 31, 2010, 11:09:25 AM ---Re: Are the sages infallible?
No. They're not. No person is infallible.
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And this is what the articles which I posted are saying...
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As we explained above, it is the task of man to bring G-d's Torah down to this world, applying its timeless principles to the relativity of man and the physical world. This is the charge of the greatest scholars of each generation. They must take the Torah from the level of the abstract to the down-to-earth. They must ascertain what the Torah means to *them*, and what particular messages and applications are most relevant to their times. This is because the Torah does not and cannot on its own reside in the world of man. The Torah is eternal and infinite; the world physical, finite and relativistic. It is the task of the sages to bridge this gap, to understand the Torah as they are best able, and to fathom what particular messages are most relevant to their day and age.
...
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Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on August 31, 2010, 06:21:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on August 31, 2010, 11:09:25 AM ---Re: Are the sages infallible?
No. They're not. No person is infallible.
--- End quote ---
And this is what the articles which I posted are saying...
--- Quote ---...
As we explained above, it is the task of man to bring G-d's Torah down to this world, applying its timeless principles to the relativity of man and the physical world. This is the charge of the greatest scholars of each generation. They must take the Torah from the level of the abstract to the down-to-earth. They must ascertain what the Torah means to *them*, and what particular messages and applications are most relevant to their times. This is because the Torah does not and cannot on its own reside in the world of man. The Torah is eternal and infinite; the world physical, finite and relativistic. It is the task of the sages to bridge this gap, to understand the Torah as they are best able, and to fathom what particular messages are most relevant to their day and age.
...
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What you cite doesn't really address this particular issue. It seems to me that it's speaking about something else entirely. Please explain.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on August 31, 2010, 11:29:34 PM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on August 31, 2010, 06:21:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on August 31, 2010, 11:09:25 AM ---Re: Are the sages infallible?
No. They're not. No person is infallible.
--- End quote ---
And this is what the articles which I posted are saying...
--- Quote ---...
As we explained above, it is the task of man to bring G-d's Torah down to this world, applying its timeless principles to the relativity of man and the physical world. This is the charge of the greatest scholars of each generation. They must take the Torah from the level of the abstract to the down-to-earth. They must ascertain what the Torah means to *them*, and what particular messages and applications are most relevant to their times. This is because the Torah does not and cannot on its own reside in the world of man. The Torah is eternal and infinite; the world physical, finite and relativistic. It is the task of the sages to bridge this gap, to understand the Torah as they are best able, and to fathom what particular messages are most relevant to their day and age.
...
--- End quote ---
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What you cite doesn't really address this particular issue. It seems to me that it's speaking about something else entirely. Please explain.
--- End quote ---
I am glad you asked me that question because it seems that you just might be missing my point.
I am not saying that Sages are infallible. What the articles I posted show that respect is due to sages even if their opinions may not be the correct ones. The wisdom of the fathers discusses that one must trust the Sages because the majority opinion of all the sages of the generation becomes the accepted decision for all those who live by the Torah. I believe the example which they give concerns one Rabbi Elizier whose decision was correct according to Hashem, yet the majority opinion was the one which was the final decision and it overruled Hashems opinion.
This is discussed in this excerpt:
--- Quote ---As we explained above, it is the task of man to bring G-d's Torah down to this world, applying its timeless principles to the relativity of man and the physical world. This is the charge of the greatest scholars of each generation. They must take the Torah from the level of the abstract to the down-to-earth. They must ascertain what the Torah means to *them*, and what particular messages and applications are most relevant to their times. This is because the Torah does not and cannot on its own reside in the world of man. The Torah is eternal and infinite; the world physical, finite and relativistic. It is the task of the sages to bridge this gap, to understand the Torah as they are best able, and to fathom what particular messages are most relevant to their day and age.
Thus, amazingly, when the sages rejected R. Eliezer's opinion, they were not interested in how G-d understood the Torah. The Torah was truly no longer in heaven. It was theirs. They realized they were the leading scholars of the age. They were entrusted with the task of bringing the Torah down to their generation. They were not studying the abstract law of heaven, but the practical law of man. And so, as great as R. Eliezer no doubt was, the sages decided to -- in fact they had to -- reject his opinion. If anything, he was *too* right. His arguments were perhaps too sharp and profound for them to grasp, and he touched upon a level of truth they simply could not comprehend. And they recognized that his opinion was just not one their generation was worthy of. (Based in part in thoughts heard from my teacher R. Moshe Eisemann.)
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Then I went on to point out that anyone who is learned in Torah and teaches others the Torah that they learned gains merits, and this merit should be honored by those whom he teaches. Just as we honor a Torah scroll as it passes us, we should rise for the Torah scholar also.
The respect due to the learned Torah scholars, the Rabbis of the generation, what some call the Gedolim {plural intended}, is due because of the human aspect which they bring to the Torah, the oral laws which they spent long days learning.
I do not insult Rabbis lightly, even when they say things which I don't necessarily agree with. I give them the benefit of the doubt and hope that I may some day understand what it is they were trying to teach when I was not able to understand. I know that some Rabbis make some very bad decisions. I am not saying that each person who is called a Rabbi is all-knowing in Torah and pure of heart. But those who are very good Rabbis will rise to become noticed. I think we all know that Rabbi Kahane was one who rose quickly because of his Torah scholarship and his strong convictions and his Jewish pride. But there are Rabbis who spend too much time in politics, and money and promises can cloud their decisions.
Even despite the obvious failings of some of the Rabbis of our time we still should not speak evil against them. Our entire generation has fallen and so too our great Rabbis are not of the highest level. I believe that Torah says that we need to respect the judges and the rabbis of our generation even if they are not on the lofty level of the past generations.
It is Parasha Shoftim {from a couple weeks ago} which discusses this:
--- Quote ---http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5755/shoftim.html
The Judge Who Will Be There in Those Days
The Torah tells us in this week's Parasha, "And you shall come to the Kohanim, the Leviim, and to the Judge that will be in those days" to seek guidance in legal matters. Rashi is bothered by the expression "in those days" and comments "and even if he is not like the Judges who preceded him, you need to listen to him -- you have none other than the Judge who is there in your days."
Rashi tells us that if you are an elderly Jew from Europe, who remembers Rabbis of the caliber of Reb Chaim Ozer, the Chofetz Chaim, and Reb Yitzchak Elchanan and now you feel that "today's Rabbis" do not measure up to this level of scholarship and piety, you must nevertheless heed the command of the Pasuk -- you have no one else other than the Judges of your own time. This is your generation, these are your poskim, you have toaccept them with the same respect and authority as was done for the poskim and shoftim of the previous generations.
A grandson of one of the great poskim of our generation (Rav Henkin, z"tl) writes in his sefer, Sefer Shaylos U'Tshuvos Bnei Banim, a eulogy for his grandfather. In this piece he points out an additional insight from the verse: What does it mean "...the Judge who will be in those days" (asher yiheyeh bayamim haHem)? The insight pointed out by Rashi could have been derived just as well if the Torah wrote "...the Judge in those days"(asher bayamim haHem). What are the extra words "who will be" (asher yiheyeh), coming to teach us?
Rav Henkin's grandson writes, that while the phrase "go to the Judges in your time" is an instruction to us as seekers (as Rashi says), the specific usage of the word "asher" is an instruction to the Judges themselves, regarding how they have to be. In order for a person to be an effective Dayan, he has to be one who is living in those times, "in touch" with that generation. If the Posek feels he is above the generation, he doesn't understand the youth and the problems of the generation, he can't relate to them... then he cannot be a Posek! A Posek must be one "Who will be" (asher yiheyeh) -- one who can relate to and appreciate his own generation. Only then can he be a Dayan.
The Mishneh says in Avos [2:5] "Do not judge your friend until you arrive in his place". The Shaylos U'Tshuvos Bnei Banim interprets this to mean-- don't judge your friend until you have an appreciation for the people you are dealing with. He goes on to say that even though Rav Henkin reached an elderly age and was in fact from another generation, he nevertheless had an appreciation for our own generation as well and therefore was such an effective Posek.
Reb Levi Yitzchak of Berditchev says a similar insight. The Gemara, many times after raising a certain problem that cannot be resolved concludes with the word "TeYKU". "TeYKU" is actually an acronym for the expression"Tishbi Yetaretz Kushyos V'Abayos" -- Tishbi (Eliyahu HaNavi) will come and will clear up all of our doubts and questions. Reb Levi Yitzchak asks, with all due respect to Eliyahu, why is he of all the great personalities of Jewish history given the task of paskening all the Shaylos? What about Moshe Rabbeinu? What about Shmuel HaNavi? Reb Levi Yitzchak answers, the reason Eliyahu can pasken all Shaylos is because our Rabbis tell us that "Eliyahu never died" -- he was part of the twentieth century! He understands the nineties; ... and the forties; ... he was part of the 17th century; ... and the sixth century; ... he was part of it all. He never died. When a generation needs the resolution of a question, they have to go to the Posek that will be there with that generation. Who is su ch a Posek? Eliyahu haNavi.
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Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on September 01, 2010, 12:14:36 AM ---
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on August 31, 2010, 11:29:34 PM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on August 31, 2010, 06:21:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on August 31, 2010, 11:09:25 AM ---Re: Are the sages infallible?
No. They're not. No person is infallible.
--- End quote ---
And this is what the articles which I posted are saying...
--- Quote ---...
As we explained above, it is the task of man to bring G-d's Torah down to this world, applying its timeless principles to the relativity of man and the physical world. This is the charge of the greatest scholars of each generation. They must take the Torah from the level of the abstract to the down-to-earth. They must ascertain what the Torah means to *them*, and what particular messages and applications are most relevant to their times. This is because the Torah does not and cannot on its own reside in the world of man. The Torah is eternal and infinite; the world physical, finite and relativistic. It is the task of the sages to bridge this gap, to understand the Torah as they are best able, and to fathom what particular messages are most relevant to their day and age.
...
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What you cite doesn't really address this particular issue. It seems to me that it's speaking about something else entirely. Please explain.
--- End quote ---
I am glad you asked me that question because it seems that you just might be missing my point.
I am not saying that Sages are infallible. What the articles I posted show that respect is due to sages even if their opinions may not be the correct ones. The wisdom of the fathers discusses that one must trust the Sages because the majority opinion of all the sages of the generation becomes the accepted decision for all those who live by the Torah. I believe the example which they give concerns one Rabbi Elizier whose decision was correct according to Hashem, yet the majority opinion was the one which was the final decision and it overruled Hashems opinion.
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First, 2 points.
1. That is speaking about deciding Jewish law in the Talmudic times. We are well past that period and the shas (the set of Talmud - the real term, shas) has already been sealed, long ago.
2. This has relevance with regard to halachic issues - issues of Jewish law - with the caveat of #1, however with regards to hashkafic, or philosophic issues, it's a whole different ballgame, and there are room for multiple opinions/beliefs.
Now, let's admit that this is really a different question and does not address the question of "whether or not Jewish sages are infallible" - This mishna certainly does not even consider the premise, either to accept or reject it.
An appropriate preface to this excerpt would have been perhaps "How do we rule on Torah law?" Or "How did the Jewish rabbis determine what the Torah says" "Authority of the Talmud" etc.
Let's be clear that none of this has anything to do with what a rabbi of today says in his "pulpit" or in a media interview. It's simply not the same thing.
The rest seems agreeable.
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