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To post it?

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Author Topic: Should I post.....  (Read 750 times)

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Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Should I post.....
« on: November 30, 2011, 07:35:17 PM »
Anti-Zionist attempts to try to bring proofs against having a Jewish state (supposidly from the Torah and Talmudh), soo we can refute them, or just leave it and not confuse people?  
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline The proud Jew

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Re: Should I post.....
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2011, 07:46:53 PM »
Those anti zionist self hating kykes have no idea that in order for our moshiach to return and rebuild the beit hamikdash that the jewish people must return from all of the world and make the land furtile again. Whoever does not observe these modern day miracles are blind fools or just pure evil scum.

Offline muman613

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Re: Should I post.....
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2011, 08:01:09 PM »
Anti-Zionist attempts to try to bring proofs against having a Jewish state (supposidly from the Torah and Talmudh), soo we can refute them, or just leave it and not confuse people?  

No, there is no merit in their argument... We have discussed this here many times concerning the NK and other sects which are anti-Zionist. Pretty much the argument boils down to the three oaths {discussed recent}.... But the oaths have been broken by the nations and thus we do not have to keep our oaths...

http://www.divreinavon.com/pdf/TheThreeOathsOfJewishHistory.pdf

http://www.kby.org/english/torat-yavneh/view.asp?id=3970

http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/printAsk.aspx/eng/2276

Quote
In Netzach Yisrael, chapter 24, the Maharal discusses the concept of the three oaths, one of which is that Jews are not allowed to return to Israel en masse before Mashiach arrives. How do zionists disprove this? Are the oaths really binding, or are they not Halacha? If they aren¡¦t Halacha, why do so many frum Jews act as if they are Halacha?

להורדת התמונה לסלולרי: שלח את ההודעה 88011 למספר 1315. למכשירים התומכים בגלישה באינטרנט בלבד. מחיר: 3 ש"ח.
Rabbi Elchanan Lewis
   
Answer:
This is a topic many wrote and commented on (you can find in this web site and many more) I will therefore shortly comment:
* The source is a Midrash and not a Halachic statement
* It was annulled by the UN 29.11.47
* The establishment of a sovereign Jewish state in Eretz Yisrael proves the oath is annulled.
* The oaths were not brought in the major Halachic books; on the contrary. (Shulchan Aruch EH 75 3-5, Rambam Melachim end of chapter 5, Ramban Mitsvat Asse 4 and many others.)
* The suffering of the Jewish people is a sign we should make our way to Israel (Em Habanim Semeicha)

http://www.dafyomi.co.il/kesuvos/halachah/ks-hl-111.htm
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Should I post.....
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2011, 08:19:21 PM »
http://www.divreinavon.com/pdf/TheThreeOathsOfJewishHistory.pdf

The first oath enjoins “that Israel should not ascend [altogether] like a wall.” This oath restricted the Jews from coming en masse to the land of Israel but by the same token permitted Jews as individuals to come.11 Indeed, since the onset of the Roman exile until modern times, history has borne witness to the successful immigration of Jewish individuals as opposed to immigration en masse.

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With the successful establishment of fruitful agricultural enterprises, the sign that “it pleases” God for the Jews to return was established and the first oath was effectively annulled. For the first time in almost 2000 years, Jews were able to immigrate to the land of their forefathers – en masse.18 Those who recognized this historic sign boldly took fate into their hands and participated in the destiny of the people of Israel. For others, the trees of the return obscured the forest of redemption, and thus they awaited a second historic event.

The second oath states that, “the Holy One, blessed be He, made Israel swear that they would not rebel against the nations of the world.” In his halachic work entitled “Avnei Nezer” (Y.D. 456), R. Avraham Bornstein [1839-1910] explains that once the nations of the world give permission for all the Jews to go up to the land of Israel, the oath is annulled.19 In April 25, 1920, the San Remo Resolution effectively fulfilled this requirement:

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The third oath declares that “the Holy One, blessed be He, made the nations swear that they would not oppress Israel too much.” R. Betzalel Ashkenazi (Sheeta Mekubetzet, ad loc.), in the name of the students of the Rashba, writes that God cannot bear to see Israel oppressed, so that if the nations oppress Israel too much, this will arouse God’s compassion for them, “causing the redemption before its time (shelo bizmana) as it is stated in general: When the time of their redemption will come (k’she’yagia zemanam ligael), God will install a king whose decrees are like those of Haman causing the Jews to return to their better selves whereupon they are immediately redeemed.”
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Conclusion
In conclusion, the oaths are not pledges entered into by mutual consent but laws of nature, of fate, woven into the fabric of time. Each oath bound the Jewish people to bear the burden of the exile; conversely, the annulment of each oath afforded the Jewish people a historic opportunity to return to the land of their forefathers. With all three oaths revoked, the official establishment of the state of Israel was declared. Those who chose to return to their land, chose to take part in destiny; those who did not, chose to continue to be blown by the winds of fate. The oaths that bound the Jewish people to a difficult fate have been removed and a new fate, the fate of redemption, calls to action. An epic opportunity to turn fate into destiny, to participate in the unfolding of history, and to effect the very perfection of creation expectantly awaits in the land of Israel.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Should I post.....
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2011, 08:32:10 PM »
No

 Alright, that was my question. To post it (in order to refute them) or not bother. (Guess you already voted no).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Should I post.....
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2011, 08:39:40 PM »
Alright, that was my question. To post it (in order to refute them) or not bother. (Guess you already voted no).

If you would like to discuss it then do it... I just reposted the information about the three oaths. Are there other reasons that religious Jews would be anti-zionist?
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14