State of Judea - Yes or No?

[Meerkat]

anyone like my idea? use a federal system, a great compromise, and a strict construction to keep israel united, but let the leftists and the religious zionists have their own systems.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

anyone like my idea? use a federal system, a great compromise, and a strict construction to keep israel united, but let the leftists and the religious zionists have their own systems.

I don't think the Israeli regime is interested in compromise when it comes to their own hegemony over the Israeli state.   They are willing to shrink that state to consolidate their control over whatever is left of it (and they consider the arab threat with suicidal contempt) in order to destroy their main political enemies.   But I don't believe they will "compromise" beyond that.

[Malchut]

I voted not sure. A State of Judea should only come into existence at a time when either an Israeli pullout from the West Bank is a for sure thing, or the religious movement in Israel has absolutely no chance. Both of these conditions are not yet met. To the contrary I think the religious movement is getting more powerful. G-d willing we will see a religious government in all the Eretz Yisrael soon.

The religious factions in Israel will not get more powerful because the regime will not allow  them to.   Witness the current round of "peace talks" and surrender plans which are designed to uproot the religious nationalist society and rip apart the fabric of their communities by the shreds.    We have already witnessed this among the Aza population, whose lives were destroyed and some of whom are still wandering and looking for jobs.   There is no way to lead a political revolution or demographic-power transition when the members of the sector are all trying to put the pieces of their lives back together and simply survive.   Especially not with a tyrannical regime like the one we are dealing with who will use every trick in the book including illegal and antidemocratic measures to make sure that they do not lose their own power over their own type of state that they prefer.   

1.I think you misunderstood when I said “religious movement” I meant people like the Kahanists. Those “religious” phonies are not a part of the religious movement.
2.You raised the issue of the Gaza pullout (a) I think this is why people will not allow it to happen again. They still have rockets and problems from it, not to mention the fact the settlers were completely mistreated. (b) I do not think Netanyahu has the will to pullout from the West Bank. He may talk the game, but I do not think he’ll walk down that road. (c) I think a war between Israel and Arab countries may soon be a reality. These things tend to reduce the liberal madness.
3.  Remember it doesn’t take much to influence a government. Only 13% of the United States is black, yet look at their lobbying power in the Democratic Party and the United States as a whole.

[Meerkat]

anyone like my idea? use a federal system, a great compromise, and a strict construction to keep israel united, but let the leftists and the religious zionists have their own systems.

I don't think the Israeli regime is interested in compromise when it comes to their own hegemony over the Israeli state.   They are willing to shrink that state to consolidate their control over whatever is left of it (and they consider the arab threat with suicidal contempt) in order to destroy their main political enemies.   But I don't believe they will "compromise" beyond that.

who says my compromise involves negotiating with the israeli regime? "great compromise" refers to the combination of the new jersey plan and the virginia plan. basically have bicameral parliament, like the house and the senate which together make the US congress. strict construction means that the main government can only do a limited number of things specified by the constitution. 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

2.You raised the issue of the Gaza pullout (a) I think this is why people will not allow it to happen again. 

What people?  And what will they do to stop it?

They still have rockets and problems from it, not to mention the fact the settlers were completely mistreated. 

Who is they?  Do you think the govt cares about the rockets raining down on poor peripheral Israeli towns?   Not one iota.   Because they knew this would be the result when they carried out this plan.   And now the result presents itself.  They were willing to deal with that "nuisance" and are willing once more from other areas where they think "PA police" will help  their situation.     

(b) I do not think Netanyahu has the will to pullout from the West Bank. He may talk the game, but I do not think he’ll walk down that road.   

For what reason does he not have the will to do it?   He will first sell it to the public, then he will do it.  It's pretty simple.   Sharon pulled it off very smoothly.   He will emulate that model and work off those methods.

(c) I think a war between Israel and Arab countries may soon be a reality. These things tend to reduce the liberal madness.

Is Bibi a liberal?   I don't think so.   Yet he is also mad.   I don't think war will do anything except force them to postpone the suicide operations.   The arabs are probably smart enough to let bibi shoot himself in the foot first.    And even if they aren't, we will eventually return to the "bargaining table" because that is an end goal of the govt.  No matter what happens, they have shown consistently, the national suicide talks with PLO/Fatah is their end goal.    So if God gives us a miracle that something stops it, that's great, but there's really nothing that's going to make these criminals think twice about their insane policy.

3.  Remember it doesn’t take much to influence a government. Daniel Pipes says he thinks the Jihadists only make up 10-15% of the Muslim population. How many more religious people are there in Israel?

Then why hasn't Oslo been stopped?   We are how many years later now?    And yet we have achieved nothing to stop it.

Speaking of that figure that Pipes loves to trot out, I'd like to know where Daniel Pipes gets his "estimate" from.   Did he do a personal survey?  lol.   That clown also supported Gaza Expulsion, and when the time is right, he will get on board and support "West Bank" Pullout as well.   (Or more expulsion first!)

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

anyone like my idea? use a federal system, a great compromise, and a strict construction to keep israel united, but let the leftists and the religious zionists have their own systems.

I don't think the Israeli regime is interested in compromise when it comes to their own hegemony over the Israeli state.   They are willing to shrink that state to consolidate their control over whatever is left of it (and they consider the arab threat with suicidal contempt) in order to destroy their main political enemies.   But I don't believe they will "compromise" beyond that.

who says my compromise involves negotiating with the israeli regime? "great compromise" refers to the combination of the new jersey plan and the virginia plan. basically have bicameral parliament, like the house and the senate which together make the US congress. strict construction means that the main government can only do a limited number of things specified by the constitution. 

What makes you think the Israeli regime would accept upon itself such limitations?  You have to be joking!

Who are they, the founding fathers?   Netanyahu will wake up Thomas Jefferson and Olmert will become George washington?  Please be realistic.

[Meerkat]

anyone like my idea? use a federal system, a great compromise, and a strict construction to keep israel united, but let the leftists and the religious zionists have their own systems.

I don't think the Israeli regime is interested in compromise when it comes to their own hegemony over the Israeli state.   They are willing to shrink that state to consolidate their control over whatever is left of it (and they consider the arab threat with suicidal contempt) in order to destroy their main political enemies.   But I don't believe they will "compromise" beyond that.

who says my compromise involves negotiating with the israeli regime? "great compromise" refers to the combination of the new jersey plan and the virginia plan. basically have bicameral parliament, like the house and the senate which together make the US congress. strict construction means that the main government can only do a limited number of things specified by the constitution. 

What makes you think the Israeli regime would accept upon itself such limitations?  You have to be joking!

Who are they, the founding fathers?   Netanyahu will wake up Thomas Jefferson and Olmert will become George washington?  Please be realistic.

did i say we need to ask the israeli regime weather they want this or not? no, we should do that plan after democratically booting the regime out.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

anyone like my idea? use a federal system, a great compromise, and a strict construction to keep israel united, but let the leftists and the religious zionists have their own systems.

I don't think the Israeli regime is interested in compromise when it comes to their own hegemony over the Israeli state.   They are willing to shrink that state to consolidate their control over whatever is left of it (and they consider the arab threat with suicidal contempt) in order to destroy their main political enemies.   But I don't believe they will "compromise" beyond that.

who says my compromise involves negotiating with the israeli regime? "great compromise" refers to the combination of the new jersey plan and the virginia plan. basically have bicameral parliament, like the house and the senate which together make the US congress. strict construction means that the main government can only do a limited number of things specified by the constitution. 

What makes you think the Israeli regime would accept upon itself such limitations?  You have to be joking!

Who are they, the founding fathers?   Netanyahu will wake up Thomas Jefferson and Olmert will become George washington?  Please be realistic.

did i say we need to ask the israeli regime weather they want this or not? no, we should do that plan after democratically booting the regime out.

I may have been confused by your comment.   I thought by "bicameral" you meant one faction is the Judean leadership and the other is the Israeli.   I may not have understood what you were writing there.   Please explain.

[Meerkat]

anyone like my idea? use a federal system, a great compromise, and a strict construction to keep israel united, but let the leftists and the religious zionists have their own systems.

I don't think the Israeli regime is interested in compromise when it comes to their own hegemony over the Israeli state.   They are willing to shrink that state to consolidate their control over whatever is left of it (and they consider the arab threat with suicidal contempt) in order to destroy their main political enemies.   But I don't believe they will "compromise" beyond that.

who says my compromise involves negotiating with the israeli regime? "great compromise" refers to the combination of the new jersey plan and the virginia plan. basically have bicameral parliament, like the house and the senate which together make the US congress. strict construction means that the main government can only do a limited number of things specified by the constitution. 

What makes you think the Israeli regime would accept upon itself such limitations?  You have to be joking!

Who are they, the founding fathers?   Netanyahu will wake up Thomas Jefferson and Olmert will become George washington?  Please be realistic.

did i say we need to ask the israeli regime weather they want this or not? no, we should do that plan after democratically booting the regime out.

I may have been confused by your comment.   I thought by "bicameral" you meant one faction is the Judean leadership and the other is the Israeli.   I may not have understood what you were writing there.   Please explain.

basically, the knesset would be divided into 2 pieces, one piece would have representation based on the provincial population. the other one will have a set amount of representatives for all provinces, no matter how big or small. i got the idea from the US congress. this will ensure that no big province like tel-aviv is under-represented and no small province like Samaria is over-represented, but it will also prevent tel-aviv from being predatory. 

[Malchut]

What people?  And what will they do to stop it?
Israelis, but you probably know the politics of Israel better. The Israelis are getting frustrated, and polling data is showing this. There is also a global rise of rightwing parties, look at the Israel elections of 2009. A self described Kahanist, Michael Ben Ari, is in the Knesset. If the voters who consider themselves Orthodox were to vote for National Union next round I think we will be fine as long as we progress. If in the next round of elections we don't progress, I'll be more open to supporting State of Judea.
Another factor is of course the settlers themselves who should prepare everything that would be necessary to be self sufficient. So, if the IDF comes in (which I doubt will happen), they can expel the IDF. To do before hand I think would simply cause an unnecessary civil war, or general strife.
For what reason does he not have the will to do it?   He will first sell it to the public, then he will do it.  It's pretty simple.   Sharon pulled it off very smoothly.   He will emulate that model and work off those methods.
I have seen interviews that have given me hope, to begin with. Sharon tried and failed. How is Netanyahu going to sell expelling all the settlers and going to pre67 lines? Netanyahu will have to expel most of the settlers from the West Bank, and withdraw close to pre67 borders for any diplomatic agreement.
Is Bibi a liberal?   I don't think so.   Yet he is also mad.   I don't think war will do anything except force them to postpone the suicide operations.   The Arabs are probably smart enough to let bibi shoot himself in the foot first.    And even if they aren't, we will eventually return to the "bargaining table" because that is an end goal of the govt.  No matter what happens, they have shown consistently, the national suicide talks with PLO/Fatah is their end goal.    So if G-d gives us a miracle that something stops it, that's great, but there's really nothing that's going to make these criminals think twice about their insane policy.
1. Bibi is a liberal. Anyone who says you can make peace with terrorist is a liberal idiot. I do think though he still has enough sense to not withdraw from the West Bank though.
2. The only reason the Arabs won’t start a war is because they are too afraid of Iran. I think that Arab states of the Middle East are just dumb. Otherwise how can you explain them going to war with Israel at all?
3. I read somewhere once that the religious Zionist movement only got big after the ’67 war. I was basing my comments on that. Also, unless God intervenes Israel is done. Israel will not be able to come back from a West Bank withdrawal, or a civil war (baring some big miracle of course).
4. Voters and self interest. Milton Friedman once said something like you don’t need to throw the bumbs out, you just need to make the politicians need your votes.
Then why hasn't Oslo been stopped?   We are how many years later now?    And yet we have achieved nothing to stop it.

Speaking of that figure that Pipes loves to trot out, I'd like to know where Daniel Pipes gets his "estimate" from.   Did he do a personal survey?  lol.   That clown also supported Gaza Expulsion, and when the time is right, he will get on board and support "West Bank" Pullout as well.   (Or more expulsion first!)
1.   The religious parties bought into it. They committed treason against the Torah. As I, think it was Shimon Peres (or Rabin), said he was surprised how little it took to get the religious parties on board.  Also you must realize countries basically have to hit bottom.
2.   I know I realized this after I had it posted a while. I changed it to blacks/US to help illustrate my point of how a well organized small group of people can influence a government.
   

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

That clown also supported Gaza Expulsion, and when the time is right, he will get on board and support "West Bank" Pullout as well.   (Or more expulsion first!)
1.   The religious parties bought into it. They committed treason against the Torah. As I, think it was Shimon Peres (or Rabin), said he was surprised how little it took to get the religious parties on board.  Also you must realize countries basically have to hit bottom.   

It's not that they bought into it, it's that they were bought.  They were bribed to go along with these plans, just like they are always bribed to go along with foreign policy agenda, and just like they will always be bribed to go along with these suicidal plans because they do not have a national vision.  These so-called "religious" parties are not nationalist.  They care about yeshivot and the funding for their yeshivot, and NOTHING ELSE.    You pay enough money and they will sign onto anything.

There is no rational reason to believe that this will change.  I wish there was.  But there isn't.  I think you are engaging in wishful thinking and hoping for a miracle.

2.   I know I realized this after I had it posted a while. I changed it to blacks/US to help illustrate my point of how a well organized small group of people can influence a government.

Israelis are not well organized and will not achieve what the blacks did.  The blacks were willing to fight.   And fight they did.   There is also a major difference because in America there were democratic freedoms to exploit with the civil rights agenda.   Israel is a totalitarian regime

[Masha]

I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.

This is my 2-state solution.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.

This is my 2-state solution.

WTF?

[muman613]

I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.

This is my 2-state solution.

This is against the Torah... All Jews united under Moshiach...

[Masha]

I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.

This is my 2-state solution.

This is against the Torah... All Jews united under Moshiach...

They will be united, of course, in one nation-state.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.

This is my 2-state solution.

Why?

Religious mizrahim and religious ashkenazim are for more similar in culture than a religious ashkenazi and a secular ashkenazi.  I don't think what you said makes any sense.   Why shouldn't mizrahi and ashkenazi Jews live together?  So what if they like different music?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Should fans of rap music all be forced into montana while fans of country live only in texas and fans of hard rock move to NY?

[Masha]

I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.

This is my 2-state solution.

Why?

Religious mizrahim and religious ashkenazim are for more similar in culture than a religious ashkenazi and a secular ashkenazi.  I don't think what you said makes any sense.   Why shouldn't mizrahi and ashkenazi Jews live together?  So what if they like different music?

Didn't G-d orignally allocate different locations for the 12 tribes in anceint Israel? I don't see anything wrong in different groups living in different places as long as they are living in one country. I personally get physically sick from listening to oriental music.

[Meerkat]

I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.

This is my 2-state solution.

Why?

Religious mizrahim and religious ashkenazim are for more similar in culture than a religious ashkenazi and a secular ashkenazi.  I don't think what you said makes any sense.   Why shouldn't mizrahi and ashkenazi Jews live together?  So what if they like different music?

Didn't G-d orignally allocate different locations for the 12 tribes in anceint Israel? I don't see anything wrong in different groups living in different places as long as they are living in one country. I personally get physically sick from listening to oriental music.

thats actually somewhat my idea, have a federal system.

[muman613]

I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.

This is my 2-state solution.

Why?

Religious mizrahim and religious ashkenazim are for more similar in culture than a religious ashkenazi and a secular ashkenazi.  I don't think what you said makes any sense.   Why shouldn't mizrahi and ashkenazi Jews live together?  So what if they like different music?

Didn't G-d orignally allocate different locations for the 12 tribes in anceint Israel? I don't see anything wrong in different groups living in different places as long as they are living in one country. I personally get physically sick from listening to oriental music.

thats actually somewhat my idea, have a federal system.

I think you mean a Monarchy... As Torah states will be when Moshiach comes... There is no democracy in the Messianic times.

[Meerkat]

I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.

This is my 2-state solution.

Why?

Religious mizrahim and religious ashkenazim are for more similar in culture than a religious ashkenazi and a secular ashkenazi.  I don't think what you said makes any sense.   Why shouldn't mizrahi and ashkenazi Jews live together?  So what if they like different music?

Didn't G-d orignally allocate different locations for the 12 tribes in anceint Israel? I don't see anything wrong in different groups living in different places as long as they are living in one country. I personally get physically sick from listening to oriental music.

thats actually somewhat my idea, have a federal system.

I think you mean a Monarchy... As Torah states will be when Moshiach comes... There is no democracy in the Messianic times.

we don't know who the decedents of david are. perhaps we can have a constitutional monarchy like britian with the monarch being the most likely decedent of david, until the geula comes in.

[muman613]

I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.

This is my 2-state solution.

Why?

Religious mizrahim and religious ashkenazim are for more similar in culture than a religious ashkenazi and a secular ashkenazi.  I don't think what you said makes any sense.   Why shouldn't mizrahi and ashkenazi Jews live together?  So what if they like different music?

Didn't G-d orignally allocate different locations for the 12 tribes in anceint Israel? I don't see anything wrong in different groups living in different places as long as they are living in one country. I personally get physically sick from listening to oriental music.

thats actually somewhat my idea, have a federal system.

I think you mean a Monarchy... As Torah states will be when Moshiach comes... There is no democracy in the Messianic times.

we don't know who the decedents of david are. perhaps we can have a constitutional monarchy like britian with the monarch being the most likely decedent of david, until the geula comes in.

There are those who know that they are of the Davidic line... When the true Nation of Israel (Am Yisroel) is established then we will need to establish the King of the Jewish people. May we live to witness this..

http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/704412/Rabbi_Sol_Roth/Judaism_and_Democracy
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/747009/Rabbi_Emmanuel_Rackman/Democratic_Theology_

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I voted Yes on the state of Judea. I think that Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are culturally distinct. They like different foods and music. They behave diffrerently and have a different mentality. I think it would work better, and everybody would be happier if Ashkenazi and Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews live in different 2 states that are part of one country. Ashkenazi in Israel, and Mizrahi in Judea. Sort of like Switzerland. Still one nation though.

This is my 2-state solution.

Why?

Religious mizrahim and religious ashkenazim are for more similar in culture than a religious ashkenazi and a secular ashkenazi.  I don't think what you said makes any sense.   Why shouldn't mizrahi and ashkenazi Jews live together?  So what if they like different music?

Didn't G-d orignally allocate different locations for the 12 tribes in anceint Israel? I don't see anything wrong in different groups living in different places as long as they are living in one country. I personally get physically sick from listening to oriental music.

But we're not in those tribe delineations anymore!   We are mostly from 1-3 tribes as of the Second Commonwealth times.   It makes no sense to say that since certain Jews sojourned for a while in Spain, they are now a different tribe than Jews from the same few tribes who ended up in France!

I really don't understand - you can't stand their music therefore they have to be segregated from you?   Don't listen to the music and listen to your own.

[Daniel]

Let he soldiers unilateraly withdraw from Judea and Samaria, but do NOT expel the Jews from their homes. Those Jews who wish to stay, leave them alone to fend for themselves. When the Arabs attempt to kill and drive out the Jews, the Jews will defeat the Arabs and it will then be a winner-take-all situation. At that point, Judea can rejoin Israel and it will all be one contiguous Jewish state.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Let he soldiers unilateraly withdraw from Judea and Samaria, but do NOT expel the Jews from their homes. Those Jews who wish to stay, leave them alone to fend for themselves. When the Arabs attempt to kill and drive out the Jews, the Jews will defeat the Arabs and it will then be a winner-take-all situation. At that point, Judea can rejoin Israel and it will all be one contiguous Jewish state.

I think once the IDF leaves, these Jews have no choice but to set up their own autonomous de facto leadership and they have to be organized in order to defeat the arab hordes.   So this will require tactical measures and coordinated military plans.      They can then serve as a proxy (whether Israel proper is willing or unwilling, shares their goals or not) to the state of Israel, but should never make the mistake of subjecting themselves to the foreign Israeli rule which sabotaged and betrayed them.