Israel's Chief Scientist dismissed for doubting evolution & global warming

[muman613]

I have not seen any proof of anything other than talking about a theory which has many questions.

Humans are not the product of random mutations. Believing this degrades the human being to the level of a common animal. If you really want to believe you are a animal, you can justify any immoral act. Humans have so much to be grateful for, why would anyone want to try to say we are just a random mutation. That is criminal in my mind. To hate Hashems most brilliant creature that much as to bring him down to the level of a slug or protoplasm? That is just the worst thing that people can do.

I will bow out of this discussion because it pains me to think people actually believe this stuff. You are entitled to continue bickering about how your mother and father were baboons and your sister was an ape, but I know my family is descended from the divine light of creation...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I have yet to see any proof of evolution.

It is impossible to see when one refuses to look.

Everyone who supports it here is simply saying that genetic mutations lead to evolutionary progression. As others against it said, there is no fossil record of this ever happening.  

 Fossils definitely show that over centuries and centuries old species died out and new ones emerged!

Last time I checked there is no reproducable example of one creature turning into anything new.  

How would that be reproduced, in your opinion?  It happened naturally.   One can mimick this in a lab but that would require genetically altering the species and that has certainly been done many times.  But the problem is that that does not really "reproduce" what happened because there were no geneticists millions of years ago altering fish/amphibians genetically to make survival on land possible.   It happened of its own accord, according to God's plan.

I do not believe that even over millions of years that a creature as intelligent and built as frail as humans would evolve under the rule 'survival of the fitest'...

  Right, you don't believe it, but that belief has nothing to do with whether it is true or not.  Also why do you refer to humans as frail?

Also it would seem statistically proproble that humans would not be the only species to develop language, music, theater, math, science, and other intellectual pursuits. If it was just random mutation then something is definitely wrong with the theory.  

Well I don't believe it's random in the sense that I do think there is a deeper spiritual reason behind why humans were the only ones to develop these traits.  However, that being said, for what reason should I not believe this type of trait is a "fluke" unique to humans.  (ie, why should other animals have developed this?  The very fact of its uncommonness suggests that it would not and could not be developed except under very special conditions that humans (and their ancestors) encountered unique to the other animals).

Im sorry if that is disturbing to our science worshippers,  

  Who would those be?

If you refer to me with this disgusting and slanderous term, I'm really not disturbed by your beliefs and convictions, but just so long as you don't falsify the Torah and try to claim that my beliefs and knowledge and understanding of evolution is somehow forbidden or cannot be reconciled with Torah belief.   There are many people like me who are not in denial, and it would be quite useful for them to know that they don't have to discard religion because of being open to scientific truth.

but it is just what I have learned over the years about 'science'.  

Mazel tov, I guess.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What is the reason that we only have five fingers when according to genetic mutations there should be more variation.

What?   What are you talking about?

Do you think it would be better if we had more fingers? I do... How about some more arms too? Imagine how much more productive a man could be with more arms... Yet we have two arms, and five fingers on a hand.

http://fishfeet2007.blogspot.com/2007/05/life-on-land-evolution-of-five-fingers.html

I really don't know where you get the idea that more than 5 fingers would be better for humans.   Better in what way?   More useful?  More ergonomic?   More efficient?   How so?   Anatomically, how would extra fingers function more optimally given the current structure we exhibit?    This seems to be something you've made up.

It seems that the evolution to the 5-finger creature happened a long long time ago and it never looked back.  That would suggest that 5 fingers was highly beneficial.

The same question can be turned back to you... Why five fingers? That article did not really answer the question..

I don't understand your question.   Why does that have to be answered?    Science is concerned with how, not "why."   If you want "why" in the metaphysical sense, ask God.  (ie, that's a spiritual matter and a bigger picture of why God created us the way He did).   

If you are asking HOW did the 5-finger structure become the common and dominant form of all animals, sometimes you are not able to go back in a time machine and determine exactly why a certain structure became more prominent over others (ie 5 fingers became ubiquitous over 8-finger creatures or other variations).  (or the question of why 8 finger ones died out or didn't last).   One can only speculate on that unless we find some evidence which suggests why it happened.   If there was evidence that relates to this question, people would have more grounds to speculate about it with hypotheses (the article offers only very vague suggestions because it is difficult to determine relevant evidence to address that question - fine, no one claimed that "science" knows everything).   I can't understand why you think that question needs to be answered or else there was never evolution.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What is the reason that we only have five fingers when according to genetic mutations there should be more variation. Do you think it would be better if we had more fingers? I do... How about some more arms too? Imagine how much more productive a man could be with more arms... Yet we have two arms, and five fingers on a hand.

all vertebrate land animals had a very similar tetrapodic skeletal structure for a while now, even on a geological time scale.

while only the most well adapt organisms survive, mutations are totally random. just because something is an advantage doesn't mean we are going to get it.

before humans started walking upright, we were monkeys in a thick jungle, wings are generally a disadvantage in that environment, especially for something as big as an ape.  

those are several factors off the top of my head.

Sounds like a fantasy world...

I also doubt the scientists believe we descended from monkeys... I believe that the actual theory is that both monkeys and humans had a common ancestor.

Yes, that's true.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I have not seen any proof of anything other than talking about a theory which has many questions.

Humans are not the product of random mutations. Believing this degrades the human being to the level of a common animal. If you really want to believe you are a animal, you can justify any immoral act. Humans have so much to be grateful for, why would anyone want to try to say we are just a random mutation. That is criminal in my mind. To hate Hashems most brilliant creature that much as to bring him down to the level of a slug or protoplasm? That is just the worst thing that people can do.

I will bow out of this discussion because it pains me to think people actually believe this stuff. You are entitled to continue bickering about how your mother and father were baboons and your sister was an ape, but I know my family is descended from the divine light of creation...

Here we go again with the accusations.   

What's really "criminal" is the ignorance passed off as gospel!

"Humans are not the product of random mutations. Believing this degrades the human being to the level of a common animal."

You are making the word "random" into a value judgment.  Why should it be?    It's random in the physical sense, as to what we can possibly determine with the physical senses, but in reality we know intuitively and from revelation that there was a hidden Director behind those variations.   But science cannot address that question and does not bother with it.    However, this is the conviction of any believing scientist.  So why do you assume that this attitude is excluded by accepting that evolution occurred?

Humans have so much to be grateful for,

You mean like our inefficient, limited, impractical, and frail 5-finger hand?   

Your notions, not mine!

why would anyone want to try to say we are just a random mutation.

G-d gave man the higher cognitive ability - that's a spiritual observation.   It is only "random mutation" that produced the human being in the physical sense.   In the BIGGER PICTURE, a Jew must know that behind it all there was a master plan and that what APPEARS RANDOM TO US, indeed was not really random from the metaphysical, ie G-d's perspective.   

To hate Hashems most brilliant creature that much as to bring him down to the level of a slug or protoplasm?

What exactly do you have against slugs and protoplasm?  What did they ever do to you?   G-d designed them also, did He not?   So why do you bash them as if they are so undesirable?    We must know our roots as human beings, and our roots are the earth, the soil, the animal kingdom.   We are simply the next step on the ladder but don't forget where you came from -maintain the proper humility - this is the message behind the creation story itself!

You are entitled to continue bickering about how your mother and father were baboons and your sister was an ape,

Yes because that is what evolution claims.  My sister is an ape.

but I know my family is descended from the divine light of creation...

So you're claiming that the apes are not descended from the divine light of creation?  You're denying that G-d created the apes?    What astounding kefirah in the name of piety!

[Meerkat]

Humans are not the product of random mutations.

random mutations are what allow evolution to happen, but the real driving force behind it is natural selection, aka survival of the fittest. which is not random.

Believing this degrades the human being to the level of a common animal.

any member of the kingdom Animalia, comprising multicellular organisms that have a well-defined shape and usually limited growth, can move voluntarily, actively acquire food and digest it internally, and have sensory and nervous systems that allow them to respond rapidly to stimuli: some classification schemes also include protozoa and certain other single-celled eukaryotes that have motility and animallike nutritional modes.

yep, we qualify, we are separated from the rest of kingdom Animalia by other means.

on the other hand, heres definition 2:

any such living thing other than a human being.

has to do with the fact that god was involved in our evolution. the thing that caused us to walk upright is the formation of the hymilayas, a mountain range thousands of miles away from africa, disrupted the wind current and killed the jungle, the newly formed grasslands made us walk upright. i belive god was involved in the geological events that formed the hymilayas.

 If you really want to believe you are a animal, you can justify any immoral act.

you actually can't, for us to keep out civilization alive, the very thing that allows us to live as long as we do, we need civilized rules. (going a little into philosophy here)

  To hate Hashems most brilliant creature that much as to bring him down to the level of a slug or protoplasm? That is just the worst thing that people can do.

look at the other stuff i said

[MassuhDGoodName]

There's no way that humans are just another animal because male humans are mammals but don't have a penis bone, but almost every other male mammal does have a penis bone.

This is proof that evolution is a fraud!

[MassuhDGoodName]

So in other words what you just said was that if some big greasy schwartze pulls out a pistol and shoots it in your face that's all part of Ha'Shem's beautiful Divine plan for the world but now you've got a hole in your face.

IS THAT IS?   HUH?  IS THAT WHAT YOU JUST SAID!  THAT IS WHAT YOU JUST SAID!

[MassuhDGoodName]

Without five fingers Ha'Shem's most Divine Creation would not be able to "flip the bird" a/k/a "give 'em the middle finger" while driving in traffic.   

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "it literally became a new species of moth. "

This species of moth became Mothman of West Virginia.

They made a movie about it with Richard Gere where Mothman was out to kill Richard Gere, because Gere was a naturally selected mutation who evolved into Gerbilman.

[MassuhDGoodName]

There were never any dinosaurs!

Satan invented the bones and put them all over the place to dupe mankind and trick him into thinking that evolution and the Pleistocene Era and stuff like that actually happened.

Don't be deceived!

There never were any dinosaurs or fossils or anything like them at all!

Satan put them there to throw a monkey wrench in G-d's Perfect Plan so man would be condemned to Hell for Eternity!

Earth is only a little over 5,000 years old and every creature that ever existed is alive today exactly as it was on the day it was created in the Garden.

And there are no extinct species!

If there were, the Dodo bird would be mentioned in the Bible.

But it's not, is it?

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

When G-d created plants and specifically trees on Earth, do you think they had growth rings inside them, which typically appear after each year long season [which as they accumulate provide sturdiness for the tree]?  Or were trees merely solid inside w/o any rings [which would also enable a tree to be sturdy]?  Or were they all started as seedlings?  Someone asked me this and I found it an intriguing question, obviously I don't have a definitive answer.

How about soil?  Soil is incredibly full of lifeforms, and is a complex eco-system of its own.  While I do not write off evolution as fact or farce, to me it seems incredibly perplexing to think soil's eco-system of many unique strains bacteria and fungus, as well as other micro-organisms randomly propagated itself [and the way plants, specifically their root systems, are seemingly designed (or at least in a way they mechanically fit together like missing pieces of a puzzle) to live in a symbiotic relationship].  Mycorrhizal fungi grow very invasive into a plants roots where both organisms benefit from cohabitation, to me that is fascinating [I work in hydroponics].

As I mentioned before, I don't write off evolution as fact or farce, it does not bear strongly on my daily life...  a smart rabbi once told me, "when it appears Torah and science disagree, the fault lies with us in our limited understanding and not the Torah or science"; I think that is a great outlook to maintain.

[mord]

Evolution and Eugenics are both leftist [progressive] ideas  they both lead to Nazism and communism

[wonga66]

The sole reason that billions of years are invoked is because that is how long that evolution is claimed to require to even begin to start operating.

Of course, there is no evidence for billions of years.

All the evidence supports a much more recent creation, in accordance with the Torah.

[muman613]

Re:  "it literally became a new species of moth. "

This species of moth became Mothman of West Virginia.

They made a movie about it with Richard Gere where Mothman was out to kill Richard Gere, because Gere was a naturally selected mutation who evolved into Gerbilman.

I think you are thinking of Arthur from The Tick:

[syyuge]

Coelacanth fish can be declared as muslamic, the moving fossils.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

So in other words what you just said was that if some big greasy schwartze pulls out a pistol and shoots it in your face that's all part of Ha'Shem's beautiful Divine plan for the world but now you've got a hole in your face.

IS THAT IS?   HUH?  IS THAT WHAT YOU JUST SAID!  THAT IS WHAT YOU JUST SAID!

I don't believe anyone just said that.   

A scvartze has free will like any person.   

How he evolves is not his "choice," nor was it a conscious process for any of the animals involved.   

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

There were never any dinosaurs!

Satan invented the bones and put them all over the place to dupe mankind and trick him into thinking that evolution and the Pleistocene Era and stuff like that actually happened.

Don't be deceived!

There never were any dinosaurs or fossils or anything like them at all!

Satan put them there to throw a monkey wrench in G-d's Perfect Plan so man would be condemned to Hell for Eternity!

Earth is only a little over 5,000 years old and every creature that ever existed is alive today exactly as it was on the day it was created in the Garden.

And there are no extinct species!

If there were, the Dodo bird would be mentioned in the Bible.

But it's not, is it?

As ridiculous as this caricature is, the sad thing is that there are actually people who think this way.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Evolution and Eugenics are both leftist [progressive] ideas  they both lead to Nazism and communism

Are you saying that humans evolved into nazis?   Yes, that is partially true.  Some of the species indeed "evolved" into nazis, although they did not change into a separate species.   The ability to have rational thought processes and complex cognition enables humans to come up with all sorts of ideas, nazism included.   But it has also enabled humans to develop many very good ideas, compassion, and other beneficial and morally sound motives.

So when the first amphibians came about from fish who developed the ability to spend time on dry land, was that a communist conspiracy?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The sole reason that billions of years are invoked is because that is how long that evolution is claimed to require to even begin to start operating. 

The reason that is "invoked" is because various methods of dating the universe show it to be that old!   

Why do you continue to lie in people's faces on this forum?   Take your sheker elsewhere.

Of course, there is no evidence for billions of years. 

Just like there is no evidence that there is a sun, a moon, and that the world is spherical.   Or that there was a moon landing, right?

Do believe that the world is flat?  Please clarify that for the readers here.

Do you believe the world is flat?

Because you DO believe that the universe is geocentric, as you've made clear here many times before, and so obviously you don't consider ANYTHING evidence except what you perceive is written in a holy book (even though it's not written there).

All the evidence supports a much more recent creation, in accordance with the Torah.

What evidence would that be?  lol.   

Saying "I know this because I interpret it from Torah and hold it as a religious conviction" does not constitute evidence.

[Masha]

There are no two more dubious theories than evolution and global warming!

Even my stepfather, who is a known scientist and an atheist, laughs at the theory of evolution (not talking about the theory of anthropogenic global warming).

[wonga66]

What evidence would that be?  lol.   

The rate of decrease of the earth and sun's magnetic fields, the rate of decrease in the size of the solar disc, the high residual warmth of the moon and mere half-inch of dust on its surface (which amazed the Apollo astronauts who had been told to expect being swamped!), the decrease in the speed of light, the paucity of helium and micro-meteoric dust in the atmosphere, the rate of mineral deposition into the oceans, the fallacious premises of radiometric dating, the still "unwrapped" state of the arms of the great spiral galaxies, the thickness of Saturn's rings, the continued existence of short-term comets, human population statistics, the dearth of human records and artifacts older than 6000 years, polystrate fossils, the abiogenic theory for the origin of oil, dendochronolgy (tree-ring dating), pleochroic haloes etc etc etc

Doesn't the Jewish date 5771 have any meaning for you?!

R.Kahane would be very disappointed with you.





"The universe will exist 6000 years" (Sanhedrin 97)

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What evidence would that be?  lol.   

The rate of decrease of the earth and sun's magnetic fields, the rate of decrease in the size of the solar disc, the high residual warmth of the moon and mere half-inch of dust on its surface (which amazed the Apollo astronauts who had been told to expect being swamped!), the decrease in the speed of light, the paucity of helium and micro-meteoric dust in the atmosphere, the rate of mineral deposition into the oceans, the fallacious premises of radiometric dating, the still "unwrapped" state of the arms of the great spiral galaxies, the thickness of Saturn's rings, the continued existence of short-term comets, human population statistics, the dearth of human records and artifacts older than 6000 years, polystrate fossils, the abiogenic theory for the origin of oil, dendochronolgy (tree-ring dating), pleochroic haloes etc etc etc

Doesn't the Jewish date 5771 have any meaning for you?!

R.Kahane would be very disappointed with you.





"The universe will exist 6000 years" (Sanhedrin 97)

I'd like to think Rabbi Kahane would be proud of me and would be embarrassed by a non-thinking imbecile like you who insists that the sun revolves around the earth!

That passage in Sanhedrin is NOT dating the age of the universe!   Such blatant ignorance...

[MassuhDGoodName]

A Chabad rabbi taught me in Torah study that Ha'Shem created the world as it says in Genesis, and created during those same six days some parts of the earth with fossil bones and areas which look like they are from different geological eras to allow fools the free will to actually believe in an "old Earth" and "evolution".

I was taught that if Ha'Shem is capable of creating everything, then He's certainly able to create bones which carbon dating reads as 50 million years old, when in fact they are 5000 years old.

So case closed.

[wonga66]

a non-thinking imbecile like you who insists that the sun revolves around the earth!

As with a 6000 year old universe, all the solid scientific evidence actually fully supports a Sun going round the Earth!

Would you dare also call the Maharal, the Ma’aseh Tuviyah, the Mateh Dan, R.Yonoson Eibeshutz, the Ba’al HaTanya, R.Nachman of Breslov, the Sefer Habris, the Lubavitcher Rebbe etc "imbeciles" for holding like the Tenach that that the Sun goes round the Earth?!