Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Shalom
muman613:
--- Quote from: Chai on October 12, 2010, 05:10:37 AM ---Og was a fallen angel in the story of Noah
but in human flesh.
--- End quote ---
Where do you learn this? I have learned about Og but nobody has said anything about him being an angel. He certainly was a giant...
muman613:
Regarding the discussion of Og in relation to Noah:
http://www.pardes.org.il/online_learning/weekly-talmud/2008-08-07.php
--- Quote ---World of Our Sages: Giants of Old
By Rabbi Levi Cooper
August 07, 2008
Giants were part of the landscape from the earliest biblical times (see Genesis 4:6). These mighty men who once struck fear in the hearts of people suffered two great defeats. Their first rout was at the hands of Chedorlaomer, during the war of the four kings against the five kings (see Genesis 14:5).
In this famous battle, Lot was taken captive - a move that would prove to be fatal for the heretofore triumphant four kings, for one person managed to escape and bring the news of Lot's capture to his uncle Abraham. Abraham quickly entered the fray to rescue his nephew. With his force, Abraham subdued the four kings, freeing Lot and regaining much property that had been plundered by them.
Who was the refugee who brought the news to Abraham and thus turned the tide of the war? The commentators noted the use of the definite article - the survivor - and sought to identify who this news courier was. Some commentators suggested that it was a refugee from the very battle in which Lot was seized. Another suggested that it was a solitary survivor from Lot's camp (Shadal, 19th century, Italy).
Our sages, however, looked further afield for the identity of this news bearer: Who was the ultimate survivor in biblical lore? During the deluge, as all life was being wiped out except for Noah and his ark, Og managed to climb onto one of the ladders on the outside of the ark. As he clung on, he swore to Noah and to his sons to be their slave forever. In exchange, Noah bored a small hole in the ark and each day he would proffer food to the giant, who thus weathered the storm (Pirkei DeRabbi Eliezer 23). Though not included in the ark, Og managed to survive the flood in this manner and for that feat he was known as the survivor (B. Nidda 61a). The survivor who brought the news to Abraham was the famous refugee, Og.
According to one opinion among the sages, Og was driven by shadowy motives: He hoped that Abraham would fall in battle and he could marry the beautiful Sarah (Devarim Rabba 1:25). Whatever his motive, Og who had survived the flood, had now survived the onslaught of the four kings.
Og's survival resolve was shown once more when the fearsome giants were vanquished a second time, this time by the Ammonites (see Deuteronomy 2:20-21).
In this context, Og's magnitude is described in terms of his cradle, which measured nine forearms long and four forearms wide - at least 4.5 meters by 2 meters, perhaps even more depending on whether Og's forearms served as the yardstick. The cradle was not made of wood but of iron so that it could hold this colossal baby's weight (Deuteronomy 3:11).
Maimonides (12th century, Cairo) sought to extrapolate from the size of the cot just how big Baby Og was: A person generally makes his bed a third longer than his height, assumed Maimonides. Thus Og must have measured six cubits in height; an average height of a person, notes Maimonides, is three cubits. Baby Og was therefore double the height of an average person. This huge cot was displayed in the capital city Rabat Bnei Ammon and served as a reminder of victory for the Ammonites who bested the giants (Ramban, 13th century, Spain-Eretz Yisrael). Og for his part moved north and settled in Bashan.
Despite Og's endurance, our sages describe the lead up to his eventual downfall. When the Jewish people reached the area of Edrei on the east bank of the Jordan River, Moses announced: "We camp here tonight, and tomorrow we conquer the city" (Devarim Rabba 1:24).
Early the following morning they set out, but the landscape had changed. Moses looked up and saw Og sitting on the wall of the city with his feet reaching the ground. Not understanding what he saw, Moses wondered: "What's going on, did they build another wall overnight?" The Almighty explained: "Moses, what you see is none other than Og." Moses was frightened, "Do not fear, Moses," reassured the Almighty, "For he will fall before you."
Og saw that the entire camp of Israel was three parasangs square: "I will uproot a mountain of such size and throw it on the entire camp and kill them all," planned the giant (B. Berachot 54b). Og found such a piece of land, picked it up and held it aloft as he planned to bury the Jewish people. The Almighty sent ants which began to bore holes in the uprooted mountain, and clumps of earth began to rain on Og's head. Og tried valiantly to brush the earth off, but his teeth grew, extending downward and locking his head in position.
Og demise was not far. Moses - himself no pipsqueak - was 10 cubits tall. He took an axe with a 10-cubit handle, and he jumped 10 cubits into the air. He reached up and with the axe 30 cubits above the ground he struck Og - in the heel! The blow to the tender "Og's heel" - as perhaps we should call it in our tradition - was sufficient and the giant came crashing down.
What is the legacy of this giant? In days of old, people would surely stare with amazement at the size of Og's cradle. This cradle, however, is no more. The Talmud rules that whoever sees the rock with which Og had planned to crush the Jewish people must recite a blessing praising G-d for miraculous salvation (B. Berachot 54a). We barely recall Og's tenacious ability to survive and the only memento of his exploits was a rock that we can no longer identify.
Alas, the giants of old who so capture our imagination are but a distant memory, alive today only in aggada. Though, perhaps, giants are not only gauged by the measurements of their cradle or the height of their heel or the size of the mountains they uproot.
--- End quote ---
Chai:
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 12, 2010, 01:40:31 PM ---
--- Quote from: Chai on October 12, 2010, 05:10:37 AM ---Og was a fallen angel in the story of Noah
but in human flesh.
--- End quote ---
Where do you learn this? I have learned about Og but nobody has said anything about him being an angel. He certainly was a giant...
--- End quote ---
in yeshiva its also in bereshit in noah ill ook it up..btw massa still did nit give us that talmud quote
MassuhDGoodName:
Re: "btw massa still did nit give us that talmud quote "
I started to post it, but then remembered that like Kabalah, it is reserved for an exclusive elite which has already fulfilled all the preliminary studies.
And "you guys" clearly don't cut the mustard! :teach:
But regarding OG, he wrote many books during his lifetime.
His family name was Mandino.
:o
muman613:
--- Quote from: Chai on October 19, 2010, 03:53:54 PM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 12, 2010, 01:40:31 PM ---
--- Quote from: Chai on October 12, 2010, 05:10:37 AM ---Og was a fallen angel in the story of Noah
but in human flesh.
--- End quote ---
Where do you learn this? I have learned about Og but nobody has said anything about him being an angel. He certainly was a giant...
--- End quote ---
in yeshiva its also in bereshit in noah ill ook it up..btw massa still did nit give us that talmud quote
--- End quote ---
I did not see anything in Noah {The Torah portion} concerning Og. The discussion of Og occurs in the Midrash... And the discussion I have seen say that he was a Giant, born from a flesh-and-blood mother {hence the discussion of the size of his crib, etc.}...
PS: I found a mention that Sichons father may have been an angel... http://www.globalyeshiva.com/forum/topics/og-melech-habashan?commentId=727216%3AComment%3A34009
--- Quote ---Rashi on Genesis 14:13 Parasha Lech Lecha {This weeks portion}
13. And the fugitive came and he told Abram the Hebrew, and he was living in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, the brother of Eshkol and the brother of Aner, who were Abram's confederates.
And the fugitive came: According to its simple meaning, this was Og, who escaped from the battle, and that is what is referred to in (Deut. 3:11): “Only Og survived from the rest of the Rephaim.” And that is the meaning of “survived,” that Amraphel and his allies did not kill him when they smote the Rephaim in Ashteroth-karnaim [Midrash Tanchuma (Chukkath 25)]. The Midrash Gen. Rabbah [explains]: This is Og, who escaped from the Generation of the Flood, and this is the meaning of “from the rest of the Rephaim,” as it is said: (above 6: 4):“The Nephilim were on the earth, etc.” And he [Og] intended that Abram should be killed and he would marry Sarah (Gen. Rabbah 42:8).
--- End quote ---
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version