Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh in 1873 - Evolution does not contradict Torah
MassuhDGoodName:
muman613" "in the back of my mind I am resigned to spending some time in gehinnom for the things I have done in my life... "
I understand.
Don't worry about it, because I will bring you some icewater, as long as you're willing to pay me for it, that is! :o
MassuhDGoodName:
Re: "Attributes/Acts which prevent entry to Hell ... Suffering intestinal disorders: Eruvin 41b "
This is because of the toilet paper shortage there.
You have to wait till the diarrhea is over before the Devil will let you in! ;D
muman613:
--- Quote from: MassuhDGoodName on October 17, 2010, 12:35:58 PM ---Re: "Attributes/Acts which prevent entry to Hell ... Suffering intestinal disorders: Eruvin 41b "
This is because of the toilet paper shortage there.
You have to wait till the diarrhea is over before the Devil will let you in! ;D
--- End quote ---
Ahh,
Now you have relieved my suffering.... I was ROFLMAOing so hard...
I hope that I will not be spending as much time as you in the hot place... But if we happen to share time there together I will surely save a place for you...
But I was just reading that all Jews have a place in the world to come {even the sinners}... Even an empty Jew is as full of mitzvot as a pomegranate [has seeds] according to the same Talmud Eruvin 19a... So just maybe the merit of our forefathers may help us {so long as we are circumcised it is said that Abraham himself saves us from gehinnom}...
--- Quote ---http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/to-live-and-live-again/16.htm
The core of one of the explanations offered with regard to this matter is as follows: As stated in many discourses,[12] Gan Eden is granted as a reward for Torah study, while the Resurrection of the Dead comes as a reward for the observance of mitzvos. This explains why Gan Eden is a world of (incorporate) souls, while in the Era of Resurrection, the souls will be enclothed in bodies. For Torah study relates primarily to the soul, while the observance of mitzvos relates primarily to the body.[13]
All Jews observe mitzvos; indeed, "Even the sinners of Israel are as full of mitzvos as a pomegranate [is full of] seeds."[14] Therefore "Every Jew has a share in the World to Come."
It is possible to explain that this is also the intent of the Mishnah's citation of the prooftext,[15] "And your people are all righteous; they shall inherit the land forever...." By quoting this verse, the Mishnah not only testifies that all Jews have a share in the World to Come, but also explains why this is so.
A person who observes mitzvos is referred to as "righteous", a tzaddik. {Since all the mitzvos are referred to as tzedakah[16] - "righteousness", those who perform mitzvos are termed tzaddikim - "righteous individuals"}.[17] Since "your people are all righteous," all Jews (even the sinners among them) observe mitzvos. Moreover, they are "filled with mitzvos"; i.e., the mitzvos they observe fill their entire existence and being. Therefore "they shall inherit the land forever" - the "Land of Life,"[18] which refers to life in the World to Come.
The above explanation, however, does not account for the Mishnah's mention of the conclusion of the verse, "they are the branch of My planting, the work of My hands, in which I take pride." [This phrase highlights] the essential virtue possessed by [all] Jews, that they are "the branch of My planting, the work of My hands" - (possessing this virtue independent of their observance of mitzvos).
[By quoting this phrase as part of the prooftext for the concept,] "Every Jew has a share in the World to Come," the Mishnah indicates that the share all Jews possess in the World to Come is (also) a result of their inherent virtue.
--- End quote ---
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: wonga66 on October 17, 2010, 04:29:33 AM ---Very few Orthodox rabbis today believe in Evolution.
--- End quote ---
So what? Some do.
--- Quote ---Most Orthodox Jewish PhD scientists are strongly contra Evolution. Read their articles http://www.borhatorah.org/
--- End quote ---
But you've only quoted those who are vocally against it.
There are others who are not against it. I know some personally, and I know that certain others of them have written so in the book "Challenge" from the 1970's.
--- Quote ---60% of the US populace disavows the theory of Evolution.
--- End quote ---
Irrelevant. These same people believe in alien abductions, Yeshu as their savior, Muhammad as their prophet, superstitions, etc etc. The truth of an issue is not decided based on how many people accept it, certainly not how many Americans accept it. Popularity is not relevant.
--- Quote ---Among them are 1000s of top PhD scientists http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/
--- End quote ---
Silly. Common ancestry is accepted in science as fact. Debate centers around the precise mechanisms by which the species evolved /appeared. But ID really has nothing to stand on because their few examples of "irreducible complexity" have been dealt with at length.
--- Quote ---They can present you with a solid scientific case for a young universe, and a watertight case to demolish evolution.
--- End quote ---
Anyone who makes any kind of "case" for a "young" universe (as in, 6000 years old), is not saying anything scientific but simply presenting a distortion. Science accepts the age of the universe as quite "old."
--- Quote ---Evolution has been responsible for Huxley, Freudian psychology, moral relativity, atheistic existentialism, materialistic hedonism, despair, Nietzsche, Marxism, Nazism and modern racism.
--- End quote ---
This is the dumbest argument yet.
By this absurd logic, "theism" has been responsible for Muhammad.
And you can't blame evolution on those other creatures, just because they took a scientific notion and made a stupid/evil philosophy out of it. The SCIENCE is either sound or it isn't. And in this case, it is. And half of these names/things have nothing to do with it anyway.
--- Quote ---Charles Darwin has been in the Tropics of the Afterlife for 130 years
--- End quote ---
Presumptuous and irrelevant stupidity. I have no way of knowing where Darwin is, only G-d can judge his deeds as a person, and where he is simply is NOT relevant. You are the master of irrelevance it seems.
The science behind evolution is either sound or it isn't sound. And it is.
--- Quote ---If Jewish evolutionists like Asimov
and Sagan
could be let out of Gehennom for one instant, they'd tell you a story
--- End quote ---
More presumptuous stupidity.
I can just as easily say, and in just as stupid fashion, that Asimov and Sagan, if they would be let down from Gan Eden or from Shamayim, they would tell you a story that you should definitely believe evolution and try to reconcile it with the Torah before you lose more Jews for no reason.
--- Quote --- Do you want to throw in your lot with evil evilutionists who are also destined for Gehennom like
--- End quote ---
You really cannot be this dumb to think this is a legitimate argument. Dawkins goes beyond evolution and decides his philosophy that there is no G-d. But I do not accept that philosophy. I simply accept the science and my philosophy is that of Judaism in which G-d exists. So Dawkins, his place in gehenom, and who is with him, are all not relevant to this question. I also think it's ridiculous that you presume to know where these other individuals go, but hey you can adhere to whatever illusions you want to.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Muman, I notice you've dealt with some softballs but you fail to grapple with the key questions Massuh presented originally.
The fact is, evolution, as a scientific theory, does not contradict a belief in God or adherence to Torah Judaism. Some people here are unwilling to face that fact and continue to promote their weak propaganda instead. This is truly a shame. The whole point of this thread was to present that basic point with some evidence backing it up - the statement of the great Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh. But some people here seem to think they know better than Rav Hirsh and all Torah scholars combined when it comes to this one solitary issue of evolution even though they lack an expertise in Torah and ALSO lack an expertise in evolution or the sciences behind it. This is incredibly ironic.
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