Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea

Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh in 1873 - Evolution does not contradict Torah

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Chai:
I take it back, you have nothing to offer on this forum but your artsy fartsy views.Once in a while you will get in a good joke, but otherwise they suck. all you do is spew AntiJewish dogma and therefore I will try to rebuttal you on all these issues not becase I think Im holier then thou , no . Its just that you are close minded stubborn old man.. So I guess we just both offend each other.

MassuhDGoodName:
Re:  "you have nothing to offer on this forum but your artsy fartsy views.Once in a while you will get in a good joke, but otherwise they suck. all you do is spew AntiJewish dogma and therefore I will try to rebuttal you on all these issues not becase I think Im holier then thou , no . Its just that you are close minded stubborn old man.. So I guess we just both offend each other. "

You don't offend me at all.

I can't be offended by a negro.

MassuhDGoodName:
Re:  "you are close minded stubborn old man "

And you, negro, just slipped up!

muman613:
This is getting out of hand.

Both of you need to chill out a little. This section of the forum should be used to discuss Torah and Jewish ideas. It bothers me that two Jews are arguing like this. Don't we have enough problems that we have to deal with? Should we be spending time thinking about how to insult or demean a fellow Jew? I seriously doubt it is good for our people and certainly it is against our Jewish faith {read the laws of Lashon Hara}.

Massuh, you do come off many times as a mocker and completely disrespectful of the Jewish faith. I have patients with you on this because you explained that there are things in your life which have caused you to behave like this. I believe that you can be much more productive if you spend your time trying to learn the answers to the questions you have. You don't 'buy' the interpretations of some commentators? You can learn from others. I have found that the answers are there to be had only if you open your mind and seek the answers. Nobody is telling you what to believe. Nobody is forcing you to observe the commands. You absolutely have free will to observe or not. But I think that a person should WANT to do the right thing both for themselves and for their community and their people. I don't do mitzvot just for my own merit. I do them in order to increase the merit of the entire Jewish people. It is my wish that every Jew comes to realize that the commands are there for their own benefit.

Chai, I understand where you are coming from concerning Massuhs apparent disrespect of Jewish tradition. But please bear with him. Remember that one of Hashems important 'traits' is his 'arik hapanim' or 'Long Suffering' meaning that he has patients with all of his creations. He does not rush to judgement because the individual may make teshuva at a future time. It is best to reserve judgement on a fellow Jew. This is one of the many Pirkie Avot concerning judging others.


--- Quote ---Pirkie Avot
Mishnah 1:6
Joshua the son of Perachia and Nitai the Arbelite received from them. Joshua the son of Perachia would say: Assume for yourself a master, acquire for yourself a friend, and judge every man to the side of merit.

Mishnah 1:8
Judah  the son of Tabbai and Shimon the son of Shotach received from them. Judah the son of Tabbai would say: When sitting in judgement, do not act as a counselor-at-law. When the litigants stand before you, consider them both guilty; and when they leave your courtroom, having accepted the judgement, regard them as equally righteous.

Mishnah 2:4
...
Hillel  would say: Do not separate yourself from the community. Do not believe in yourself until the day you die. Do not judge your fellow until you have stood in his place. Do not say something that is not readily understood in the belief that it will ultimately be understood [or: Do not say something that ought not to be heard even in the strictest confidence, for ultimately it will be heard]. And do not say "When I free myself of my concerns, I will study,'' for perhaps you will never free yourself.

Mishnah 3:15
All is foreseen, and freedom of choice is granted. The world is judged with goodness, but in accordance with the amount of man's positive deeds.

Mishnah 4:7
His son, Rabbi Ishmael would say: One who refrains from serving as a judge avoids hatred, thievery and false oaths. One who frivolously hands down rulings is a fool, wicked and arrogant.

Mishnah 4:8
He would also say: Do not judge on your own, for there is none qualified to judge alone, only the One. And do not say, "You must accept my view," for this is their [the majority's] right, not yours.

--- End quote ---

Ramban on the 13 middot HaRachamim:
http://vbm-torah.org/archive/intparsha68/37-68shelach.htm


--- Quote ---"According to your statement, saying" — what is the statement? "God is long-suffering" – both to the righteous and to the wicked.  When Moses ascended to Heaven to receive the Torah, he found the Holy One, Blessed be He, writing, "God is long-suffering."  Whereupon [Moshe] said to Him, "To the righteous [only]."  But God answered him, "Also to the wicked!"  Moshe then said, "The wicked – let them perish!"  Whereupon God said to him, "By your life!  You will eventually need to resort to this [attribute, that God is long-suffering even to sinners]."  When the Jewish people sinned with the Golden Calf and with the Spies, Moshe beseeched God to be long-suffering with them; the Holy One, Blessed be He, said to him, "Did you not tell Me that this [attribute] is for the righteous [only]?"  Whereupon Moshe answered Him, "But did You not tell me that it is also for the wicked?  'And now, I beseech you, let the power of God be great, according to your statement.'"  These are the words (based on Sanhedrin 111a) of Rashi…

Now Moshe mentions among the Divine attributes "long-suffering" and "of great kindness;" but he does not mention "truth", for according to the attribute of truth, they would have been guilty.  Nor does Moshe mention "guarding kindness to the thousands," because he does not pray for mercy here based on the merit of the Patriarchs (zekhut Avot), and therefore he does not mention Avraham, Yitzchak, and Ya'akov at all in this prayer.  The reason is because the Land was given to the Patriarchs, and it is from them that [the Israelites] were to inherit it; however, they rebel against their ancestors and reject the gift which the Patriarchs desired so much.  How could he say now, "Remember Avraham, Yitzchak, and Yisra'el, Your servants, to whom you swore by Yourself… 'and all this land that I have spoken of, I will give to your descendants'" (Shemot 32:13), since they were saying: We do not want this gift!
--- End quote ---

MassuhDGoodName:
Nice try, muman613.

How many names do you go under on this forum?

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