Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh in 1873 - Evolution does not contradict Torah
wonga66:
Every generation has its specific test/yetzer/zeitgeist thrown up by the Satan. Rambam had to contend with Greek philosophy. Hence his controversial "Moreh Nevuchim". BZK said that our generation's test is how to respond to the presence of Yishmoel within Eretz Yisrael: most rabbis of today have failed that test. Hirsch's generation was tested by Evolution and the inroads of the Reform/Deform movement in Germany. The rabbis of each generation do their best to rise to the challenge with the knowledge they have to hand at that time, endeavouring reconciliations with Torah when possible, an often tricky task. If R.Hirsch knew then what we know today about the theory of Evolution, he would have utterly rejected it & become an instant YEC.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: wonga66 on October 15, 2010, 06:18:27 AM --- If R.Hirsch knew then what we know today about the theory of Evolution, he would have utterly rejected it & become an instant YEC.
--- End quote ---
Why's that?
The only difference now is that it's more refined and has more evidence to back it up.
But read again what he said:
""Even if this notion were ever to gain complete acceptance by the scientific world..."
(Which it now has)
"...Judaism in that case would call upon its adherents to give even greater reverence than ever before to the one, sole G-d Who, in His boundless creative wisdom and eternal omnipotence, needed to bring into existence no more than one single, amorphous nucleus, and one single law of “adaptation and heredity” in order to bring forth, from what seemed chaos but was in fact a very definite order, the infinite variety of species we know today, each with its unique characteristics that sets it apart from all other creatures."
So it seems your claim does not fit with what Rav Hirsh actually wrote.
Also I find it odd that you think it was his job then to "do their best to rise to the challenge with the knowledge they have to hand at that time, endeavouring reconciliations with Torah when possible" yet you insist that is not our job today, and instead we should crawl into a hole and become cowering "YEC" 's because we are too afraid to deal with the reality.
wonga66:
I have already given 18 scientific evidences against evolution.
You have given not one.
This is more than a pretty poor show. Could it be that you have....none?!
MassuhDGoodName:
MASSUHDGOODNAME'S HEAVY DUTY QUESTIONS OF THE DAY FOR wonga66 and muman613:
If my understanding is correct, the Jewish Rabbis and Temple Priests of the ancient world considered such diseases as inherited deformities, retardation, congenital abnormalities, etc., to be Ha'Shem's judgment and punishment for the sins of parents.
And Torah Jews in ancient Eretz Yisrael were adamant that diseases such as those we now know to be caused by bacteria, viruses, parasites, and malnutrition, were the work of "demons', "unclean spirits", etc...
In fact, until very recently, when such men as Van Leeuwenhoek, Edward Jenner, Joseph Lister, and Pasteur discovered the scientific proof of the existence of microscopic life forms which accounted for most diseases and infections, all of the world's renowned scientific and religious "experts" and authorities declared that "vapors from stagnant water actually transmorphized into frogs and toads" and if inhaled were the causes of what we know today as TB and pleurisy, etc...
Were it not for modern Jews totally rejecting such Jewish teachings as "Ha'Shem creates spastic and deformed babies as punishment for its parents' sins", we would not today take for granted the great scientific advancements encompassing the microbial theory of disease, genetics, evolutionary theory, and even digital electronics!
Had we Jews remained a people denouncing and rejecting any and everything not found written in Torah and Talmud, a great many of us would today be sitting outside the City Gates with tin cups begging handouts for the blind.
Thanks to the Enlightenment and Jews like Spinoza, Jews the world over now have access to corrective lenses and eyeglasses.
And until men of science rebuked Jewish and Christian religious teachings which forbade the dissection of cadavers, and risked their lives to study the human body and repair it surgically, such common injuries as inguinal hernias or ruptured spinal discs meant living life as an incapacitated and suffering cripple.
My questions:
How is it possible to be a Jewish adherent and proponent of Torah Literalism in the 21st Century; accepting as "truth" "the 6000 year timeline, "geocentric Earth", and demonology, while virtually everything good in your life you owe to the modern sciences which you know to stand in complete contradiction of the Word of Torah if literally understood?
Is it not a glaring contradiction for someone to profess as their faith "Torah says it is Truth, and/or our Sages confirm it", while at the same time they enjoy all the benefits of modern science which rejected all the previous notions and beliefs of man, substituting instead the rationalist principles of the scientific method which gave us modern medicine?
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: wonga66 on October 16, 2010, 05:52:22 PM ---I have already given 18 scientific evidences against evolution.
--- End quote ---
No, you haven't. This is simply delusional.
The scientific community accepts common ancestry and some type of evolutionary mechanism to arrive from there to the present day scenario.
That is not "disproved" by dialectic arguments or "pointed questions" you raise ignorantly. If you have something to dispute about evolution, go publish your experimental work in a scientific journal and then point us to where your work is located in pubmed so that we can see for ourselves. You have not "given evidences" for anything.
--- Quote ---You have given not one.
--- End quote ---
You still refuse to address the subject of my thread which was Rav Hirsh's comment.
The entire scientific community adheres to the theory of evolution in general, and this is due to the preponderance of evidence in its favor that has been uncovered by multiple fields. It needs no introduction from me, and this is not the place for me to "prove" it to people who don't agree with science.
--- Quote ---This is more than a pretty poor show. Could it be that you have....none?!
--- End quote ---
I have only the inductive "proofs" that science utilizes. For most intellectually honest people, that's sufficient. You, on the other hand, will claim that no inductive proof is absolute proof, so similarly we also cannot prove anything in science. This is not a rational point of view and not worth my time.
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