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Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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US pastor calls yoga demonic
« on: October 18, 2010, 11:24:53 AM »
A pastor in the US has caused a stir by calling yoga "demonic" and asking Christians to stay away from its practice.
 
Mars Hill Church pastor Mark Driscoll said that yoga was an agent of Hinduism and hence demonic. His comments came during a question answer session with church members.
 
"Should Christians stay away from yoga because of its demonic roots? Totally. Yoga is demonic. If you just sign up for a little yoga class, you're signing up for a little demon class," Driscoll said.
 
An estimated 15.8 million people practise yoga in the US and yoga studios are coming up in many cities.
 
The pastor's comments have enraged many yoga practitioners and come in the backdrop of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Kentucky terming yoga as against Christianity.
 
Father D. Emmanuel, spokesperson for the Delhi Catholic Archdiocese, dismissed Driscoll's views as personal and not the official stand of the Church.
 
"The Church in India does not feel that yoga is demonic. Many in western countries do not understand what yoga is or how it helps," Father Emmanuel told Headlines Today.
 
"There is a view in some churches that yoga is anti-Christianity. While it is a Hindu practice, it is certainly not anti-Christianity or demonic. One can be a practising Christian and still do yoga," he said.
 
Spiritual leader Sri Sri Ravi Shankar said misinformation about yoga was being spread by fringe elements. "The fringe elements have always called yoga demonic. We have faced it for so many years. Twenty years ago, even Hindu religion used to be considered as part of demonic culture," Ravi Shankar said.
 
"Yoga on the contrary kills stress, violence and hatred. How can it be called demonic?" he asked.
 
Yoga expert Baba Ramdev said thousands of Christians around the world had taken to yoga as a form of good health. "They look at yoga as a life science rather than associating it to Hindu religion. Fringe elements exist in every religion, but they cannot dictate the beliefs of the people at large," Ramdev said.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story/116838/World/furore-as-us-pastor-calls-yoga-demonic.html

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Yoga is in existence since the days when Christianity didn't even exist. To say that Yoga is against Christainity is like spitting in the sky. The spit is going to fall on the face of the spitter. Good thing is that the Americans are way too cleverer than bird brained evangelists. Millions of Americans are practising Yoga & will continue to do so irrespective of the ravings

Offline Rubystars

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2010, 11:31:43 AM »
I agree with him that Christians should not practice yoga. It's part of a non-Biblically based religion. The positions of yoga may be sending messages to the spirit world to praise Hindu deities or encourage "Energy" to flow through the body. I think Christians should avoid this kind of thing.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2010, 12:50:23 PM »
I agree with him that Christians should not practice yoga. It's part of a non-Biblically based religion. The positions of yoga may be sending messages to the spirit world to praise Hindu deities or encourage "Energy" to flow through the body. I think Christians should avoid this kind of thing.
It would make more sense to avoid assigning religious meanings to the asanas. Some of them have names that may mention Hindu deities etc. Some people also chant Hindi verses during parts of the practice. Obviously I think a non Hindu shouldn't worship a foreign religion. But just practicing the asanas cannot constitute foreign worshiping.

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2010, 01:25:49 PM »
The Science of Yoga is an integral part of the Vedic Hindu religion of India.

However, "Yoga Class", as popularized and practiced wherever "New Age Womyn" are found in western culture, is a sick parody of Hinduism, being nothing more than a watered down "exercise class" for purposes of taking as much money as possible from affluent and gullible white women who 'sign up' at "Womyn's Centers, YWCA's, and JCC's" all over the west as well as in Israel.

Rubystars makes a valid point in her pointing out that in India a yogi or yogin is someone practicing an ancient religious teaching which advocates asceticism and self-mortification in the form of meditations and physical practices, the purposes of which are designed to induce "a state of achieving total control over one's body and thoughts so that the mind becomes free from material existence and merges as One with the "Universal Consciousness".

An actual master of Yoga gains power and control over their own mind and body, and can do things like willfully slow down their heartbeat, breathing, and other organic bodily processes to the extent that a medical examiner will declare them dead.

They can be buried underground for weeks without food, air, and water, or lie motionless while nude on a bed of sharp spikes for long periods of time, while maintaining states of perfect meditation free from distraction.

It's not for us to condemn the practice of Yoga as known in India, but neither should we "accept" it as an innocuous "New Age Exercise Class" for women with trust funds in the U.S. .

Doing so is as equally disrespectful and stupid as Madonna's wearing of "The Official Kabalah Red Thread".

Today I read that some skank schwartze (a/k/a international fashion diva) has declared that her recent breakup with 14 lesbians and 97 bisexual lovers is now "healed" through her discovery of Kabalah,  and so she's now wearing her "Official Red Kabalah Thread"!

It is sadly true that Western capitalism, in it's unending quest for new markets and consumers,  tends to "discover" previously unknown concepts and ideas integral to and considered sancrosanct by other cultures, and then "markets" these back to western consumers as 'trendy fads', 'affordable to own' - 'no assembly required'!

Even Christianity and Judaism have received this same treatment in the West, so that they both have been "neutered", now legally defined as "being officially registered with the Internal Revenue Service as a 501C3 non-profit organization!



Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2010, 05:30:44 PM »
I enjoy Yoga.
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

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 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

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Offline Malchut

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2010, 06:20:45 PM »
1.   I must differ from Father Emmanuel. I was watching an interviewer talk with an author who was explaining that Catholics cannot practice Rekke. The reason he gave was when one practices Rekke one is worshiping a foreign deity. I would think yoga is a similar situation.
2.   As for Pastor Driscoll I think the using of the word “demonic” in description of its practice by Christians was unnecessary, and although not meaning to be insulting towards Hindus. Pastor Driscoll could have called it Idol worship, calling on his congregation to a healthier relationship with God. This would not be insulting the Hindu, or Yoga practitioner.     

Offline muman613

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2010, 06:26:53 PM »
Yoga as practiced by the Hindus {involving meditating on a Hindu gods name as a mantra} is expressly forbidden by many Rabbis.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/856670/jewish/Can-You-Give-Me-a-Jewish-Mantra.htm

Quote
Can You Give Me a Jewish Mantra?

By Tzvi Freeman

Question:

I am Jewish and was introduced to Siddha Yoga in 1975. i was very involved with Siddha Yoga, even after I was introduced to Chabad. I was married to my Jewish husband in 1995. Recently, I have been conflicted. In quiet times, the Siddha Yoga mantra is spontaneously repeating in my mind. I have been trying to substitute the Shema or Modeh Ani, but am having difficulty ... the old mantra is very much a part of me.

I think I need a Jewish mantra? Do you have any recommendations?


Response:

Shalom ___,

All the mantras are names of Hindu deities and these are forbidden for a Jewish person to utter, regardless of the intent. Nevertheless, I would not replace the mantra with Shema Yisrael or any Hebrew phrase, since these are meant for contemplation and the focus of Siddha Yoga meditation is to quiet the mind.

Instead, here's an idea: There is a deeply meditative Chassidic melody called the "Nigun of Three Parts. "The first part is from the Baal Shem Tov, the second from his student the Maggid of Mezritch and the third from the Maggid's student, Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi. It seems this is what they used to assist entry into a quiet, meditative state. If you will adopt it, it will assist not only in your meditation and quietness, but to connect your soul to theirs.

Try taking the very first phrase of this nigun, which has no words, and hum it quietly to yourself. Just the first phrase--which is half of the first part--slowly, repeatedly, each time followed by silence.

Click here for an online recording of that nigun for the nigun. You can also listen to it sung at the Rebbe's farbrengen here--but that first part is missing.

Once you have achieved a quietened state of mind, you are in the right frame to contemplate some of the more spiritual concepts you've learnt in depth.

Also, I think you will be interested in my response on Yoga and Torah, with many fascinating reader comments.

Let me know if this helps--and keep in touch.

Rabbi Tzvi Freeman

Interesting article on Jewish Medititation

http://www.modia.org/priere/jewish-meditation.html

Quote
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.
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4. Points of similarity and difference between
Jewish tradition and other traditions

In our study and practice, we will see that there are sometimes points of similarity with ancient techniques of development and spirituality of other nations. But the similarity is never identical for each civilization is unique.
Let us not forget where Abraham came from, where humanity comes from !; from one sole Creator and one sole man, Adam:
The Talmud tells us:
- To borrow what is good in other nations, and not just borrow what is bad, as we often do.
- To recognize that the Creator imparted different attributes to each nation.
- That the members of the Sanhedrin held a constant dialogue with other nations and were capable of doing this in 70 languages.
- That other nations also came to pay homage at the Temple, bringing offerings and sacrifices and all the kings of the world wanted to possess a dwelling in the Holy Land.
- That our Sages, from generation to generation, taught us the teachings presented in this study.

Readers should, therefore, not be surprised to see me use, now and then, certain precise, well-known terms from world traditions. Jewish tradition has often done this, not in facile or confuse manner, but in order to be more precise and in accordance with the tradition taught to us by our Sages:" hasside umot haolam yesh lahem helek ke olam habba, the righteous of the nations have a share in the world to come." You can find these teachings in the following sources: the Tosefta of Tractate Sanhedrin 13a, Rambam Maimonides in Hilkhot Teshuva 3.8 and other books on the subject.

It is, however, not enough simply to quote these terms. My use of these terms is based on a direct knowledge of ancient sources, other than ours, and directly on texts and commentaries in their original language, which I studied to a level high enough to understand linguistic nuances. I began these in-depth studies fifty years ago with eminent teachers and I referred to them in my doctoral thesis, twenty years ago. Thus, in addition to my studies on Jewish tradition, including ethno-psychological and ethno-psychoanalytical approaches, I studied other sources in Sanskrit, Persian, Arabic and other traditions. To a certain extent, this rigor is the same among the great Sages of many traditions, even if the ignorant (among them, as among us) sometimes fall into idolatry.
However it should be remembered that the name of the divine is not the same, the entity is not the same and the connection is not the same.
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« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 06:32:17 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline TheViper

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2010, 06:39:51 PM »
They have been teaching children with anxiety disorders yoga to help them deal with and negate the problem from occurring again.
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Offline muman613

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2010, 07:09:39 PM »
While in my teens I learned a form of meditation called Hamsah meditations {as taught by Swami Muktananda} in the 80s... It involved concentrating on the mantra created by breathing in and out..

Quote
http://satyashanti.com/2009/05/hamsa-meditation.html
One of the oldest and more powerful nirguna mantras is “So Ham”, also called the Hamsa Meditation. Hamsa means “white swan” in Sanskrit, which symbolizes spiritual grace and purity. So Ham means “I Am That I Am’. The mantra gently brings one’s attention back to itself, and dissolves into pure Being. It holds both the question and the answer within it. This mantra predates Hinduism and Buddhism and some people believe that Buddha used this mantra for his own realization.

To do the Hamsa Meditation, as you inhale, breathe in “Ham” and as you exhale breathe out “So”. This is a silent meditation and the breath should also be as quiet as possible. You can also do the opposite breath; breathing in “So” and breathing out “Ham”. Experiment with the two versions to see which feels right for you in the moment. This repetitive cycle is said to balance the inner masculine and feminine qualities. As you breathe, keep your attention on the breath and the internal sound of the mantra. Notice the space between the mantra, the silence, and allow that to reveal Itself.

Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muktananda

Swami Muktananda (May 16, 1908-October 2, 1982) is the monastic name of an Indian Hindu guru and disciple of Bhagavan Nityananda. Swami Muktananda was the founder of Siddha Yoga. He wrote a number of books on the subjects of Kundalini Shakti, Vedanta, and Kashmir Shaivism, including an autobiography entitled The Play of Consciousness.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline syyuge

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2010, 09:49:02 AM »
Those who dislike the yoga or think it weird shall never do it against their own will or against religious understanding as it may be counterproductive.
 
Yoga need not to be done with naming any deity or in any religious manner. For yoga, simple humanly possible breathings and strengths are enough with cool mind.

However Hathyoga is a difficult yoga and it shall be be done only by practiced Yogis. 

BTW, muslamics take bath once a week, but I take bath seven days a week and no one ever told me that I was sevenfold a muslamic.
 ;D   
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Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2010, 10:51:46 AM »
There are many missionary organisations which teach yoga saying its an early mystical teaching started by christ. in fact, the story of Jesus from far east or jesus tomb in kashmir, has been propagated  to fool Indian Hindus, to make them believe that jesus too had indian-roots so the native people should be accept him as one among them(http://church-of-the-east.org/). The Messianic Jews also use this same strategy, repackage Judaism with Christianity to make it appealing to jews. But one will never find Pastors bark on the ugly stuff going within their own section of society. The righteous or the average Christian will never speak out, are they using the same technique of the so called mute moderate muslim community?
 
I agree with him that Christians should not practice yoga. It's part of a non-Biblically based religion. The positions of yoga may be sending messages to the spirit world to praise Hindu deities or encourage "Energy" to flow through the body. I think Christians should avoid this kind of thing.
rubystars, not working on sundays, does not make me christian. similarly doing certain asanas(postures) does not make one a hindu.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2010, 11:01:51 AM »
HZ, I don't think Christians should do yoga because it's not consistent with Christian beliefs. I never said anything about Hindus or other non-Christians doing it.

Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2010, 11:19:07 AM »
Rubystars, There are better respectable ways to tell Christians what they should be doing and what not. Instead of outrageous statements. Many rationalists and atheists in the West condemn Christianity as 'demoniac'. What does he say to that? When someone criticizes Christianity, it is intolerance but when Christians criticize other religions, it is alright?

This pastor needs yoga to balance his mind. To remove hatred from his heart. Yoga consists of physical exercises and meditation among other things. But u need not meditate on Hindu Gods alone. U can meditate on Christ or even Allah based on ur faith. How can meditating of Christ be anti-Christian? These middlemen called priests, pastors and mullahs are just afraid of loosing importance.

A sane person needs to refer to history and find which people butchered the most number of people, and then contemplate who really is "demonic"
While in my teens I learned a form of meditation called Hamsah meditations {as taught by Swami Muktananda} in the 80s... It involved concentrating on the mantra created by breathing in and out..

Quote
http://satyashanti.com/2009/05/hamsa-meditation.html
One of the oldest and more powerful nirguna mantras is “So Ham”, also called the Hamsa Meditation. Hamsa means “white swan” in Sanskrit, which symbolizes spiritual grace and purity. So Ham means “I Am That I Am’. The mantra gently brings one’s attention back to itself, and dissolves into pure Being. It holds both the question and the answer within it. This mantra predates Hinduism and Buddhism and some people believe that Buddha used this mantra for his own realization.

To do the Hamsa Meditation, as you inhale, breathe in “Ham” and as you exhale breathe out “So”. This is a silent meditation and the breath should also be as quiet as possible. You can also do the opposite breath; breathing in “So” and breathing out “Ham”. Experiment with the two versions to see which feels right for you in the moment. This repetitive cycle is said to balance the inner masculine and feminine qualities. As you breathe, keep your attention on the breath and the internal sound of the mantra. Notice the space between the mantra, the silence, and allow that to reveal Itself.

Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muktananda

Swami Muktananda (May 16, 1908-October 2, 1982) is the monastic name of an Indian Hindu guru and disciple of Bhagavan Nityananda. Swami Muktananda was the founder of Siddha Yoga. He wrote a number of books on the subjects of Kundalini Shakti, Vedanta, and Kashmir Shaivism, including an autobiography entitled The Play of Consciousness.

that indeed is very interesting

Offline muman613

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2010, 01:42:57 PM »
This site has some good information on Jewish Meditation as taught by the Kabbalists:

http://www.inner.org/meditate/default.htm

Here is a good article on the differences between 'Jewish meditation' and others...



http://www.jewishmag.com/98mag/meditation/meditation.htm


What makes Jewish Meditation Unique?
By Gutman Locks


For the Jew who is exploring meditation, the question could be asked: "If it is proper to meditate on a meaningful object, what is wrong with those who meditate on idols? These forms are meaningful to them. And if our meditating on form can bring us to higher understanding, isn’t this what they are saying about their idols? They say, such and such an idol is merely the personification of a certain attribute or characteristic of their G-d and those fierce dragons they depict and the many-armed creatures are just picturing man's moods. And when they meditate on that form, it brings to their mind “higher thoughts. So what is the difference between meditating on a meaningful form, such as the fringes, and meditating on an idol?”

The answer: It is true that in some meditations the Torah suggests a form to meditate upon, such as when (referring to the fringes) it says, "...and you shall look upon them . . ." (Numbers 15:37). Yes, the fringes are being used as a reference to meditate on, and to go even beyond. But we are not attributing a personality to the fringes, nor are we praying to them. We are not saying the fringes are a form of G-d. Yes, there are holy objects, like a Torah Scroll. Holy objects exist and should be revered, but not worshipped.

Conversely, deities do not exist and should not be revered. What happens is that the meditation subject becomes very dear to the meditator. When a personality is attributed to a meditation-subject, as is done when meditating on an idol, that personality will become adored, worshiped, even prayed to. No healthy person would attribute a personality to a scroll, or to a fringe and certainly they would not pray to them.

Jewish Vs. Eastern Meditation

What is the difference between someone who, using Jewish techniques, goes off and sits in a cave meditating for many years (as some famous Jewish teachers have) and someone who, using the Eastern techniques, also sits in a cave and meditates for many years? The person following the Jewish techniques might be meditating on light or on the underlying emptiness from which all creation is being formed, and the person following the Eastern techniques might also be meditating on light or on the vast emptiness.

The source of the Jewish meditation techniques can be traced to Abraham, and some of the Eastern meditative techniques can also be traced to Abraham. Abraham sent these teachings to their land (the land of the East) some four thousand years ago with the sons that he had with a concubine. (Genesis 25:6)

Both meditators go up and down, both see great wonders and deep darkness, both experience great highs and great lows. So does it matter which techniques you use?

The difference is; the Eastern meditator will receive ACCORDING to HIS intentions, words and deeds, and the ones that follow the TORAH’S METHODS will recieve ACCORDING to the TORAH’S intentions, words and deeds.

If one meditates on a lofty subject, such as visualizing the All as the Universal, Unchanging, single One, but still keeps an idol of any kind to adore, he will most certainly corrupt his spiritual path. An idol is a limited, formed particular within the all. The formed particular will not lead to the Universal, formless, Creator. It will merely burn its form onto the mind of the meditator. Worshipping form contradicts the lofty understanding that the All is all-inclusive and unlimited. Instead, this adoration claims that there is uniqueness to that particular idol. The worshipper concocts and attributes this uniqueness to that particular form.

Or, if despite one’s lofty insights that his meditation brings, he clings to immoralities thinking that he is above the limiting restrictions that common decency instills, he will fall lower and lower into the deepest pits of hell. His meditation will throw him down and down deeper again. Then suddenly he will be raised up seemingly into an ecstatic high, but this high will only be into a bright, brass dome. His highs will never get beyond this closed metal ceiling. He will go up again and again into its blazing glare, each time thinking that again he has found his spiritual goal. Its glare will convince him that he should continue on in his service despite his being deeply immersed in sensual immoralities. His lows will be substantial. His idols and immorality will prevent him from getting past the restricting concepts that his idol stood for.

Although his techniques might produce visions and wonders that glitter brightly, his highs will be limited by his principles. When he seeks “emptiness,” he will conclude, “all is emptiness.” If he reasons all he finds is finite and changing, therefore there must not be an Unchanging Infinite, or if he says; "I have found nothing eternal in all my searching, therefore it must not exist," or bows to “nothingness” and ultimately concludes that even he himself does not exist, he will receive what he intended to find. All these are common conclusions reached by meditators today.

These conclusions are not inherent in the MEDITATION TECHNIQUES but are reached solely because they are inherent in the MEDITATOR'S INTENTION. These students are taught such principles when first learning their technique of meditation. They look for these conclusions. No one can say: "I did not find it, therefore it does not exist." No one can say: "Someone told me, 'No one exists,' therefore, there is no one." The accurate conclusion will not be: "Reality is an empty meaningless illusion," nor is it “a dance raised up by a magician’s stick.”

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2010, 03:21:34 PM »

That pastor should take up a yoga class to chill out for a moment and remove a little of the irrational fear in his heart.

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2010, 03:55:25 PM »
Re:  Gutman Locks...

This is pure New Age poppycock, muman613!

First of all, look at the figure portrayed seated in the "Lotus Position":

It is making the sign of the Hindu Sacred Syllable "Om " with its hand positions.

This isn't utilizing and adapting Hinduism and distorting Judaism?

Also, Locks says "... there are no deities".

Torah clearly contradicts this; stating that there are indeed other gods, and that all of them were created by Ha'Shem.

Precisely why we are warned repeatedly "Do not worship other gods!".

Even without Torah, it would by logical extension be impossible to worship other gods if they did not already exist!

Offline muman613

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2010, 04:18:12 PM »
Re:  Gutman Locks...

This is pure New Age poppycock, muman613!

First of all, look at the figure portrayed seated in the "Lotus Position":

It is making the sign of the Hindu Sacred Syllable "Om " with its hand positions.

This isn't utilizing and adapting Hinduism and distorting Judaism?

Also, Locks says "... there are no deities".

Torah clearly contradicts this; stating that there are indeed other gods, and that all of them were created by Ha'Shem.

Precisely why we are warned repeatedly "Do not worship other gods!".

Even without Torah, it would by logical extension be impossible to worship other gods if they did not already exist!

Now I think you are misunderstanding what 'other gods' refers to.... I think I have explained this before {at least what I understand}. But you are correct that Torah says that we are not to worship other gods {thus implying that there is such a thing}...

Let me refer to a couple of sites for the time being:

Quote
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/304/Q1/
Daniel Serfer from Vermont wrote:

    Dear Rabbi,

    I go to school in Vermont where there are not many Jews and I was never "bar mitzvah-ed," however after law school I intend to be Orthodox. Right now I have a question for you: In the Ten Commandments, at least in my English version, G-d says "You shall have no other gods before Me." Does that mean that other gods exist?


Dear Daniel Serfer,

This is sort of a mistake in translation. The Hebrew word Hashem most often refers to G-d, but it is actually a descriptive word meaning "one of power" or "force." Thus, it can also mean an angel (Genesis 32:29) or a powerful leader (Exodus 7:1).

Other forces seem to exist -- wind, fire, radioactivity, electromagnetism, chi, yang, etc. -- so the Torah tells us that they have no independent power. G-d is all powerful and all other forces are merely G-d's "agents" and they should not be deified.

The great commentator Rashi explains that the proper translation is not "other gods" but rather "gods of others." That is, anything that others believe in as a G-d, we should not.

So, you can believe the sun exists, but don't worship it.

http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5757/kedoshim.html

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Making Gods Out of Gold and Silver

The verse says [Vayikra 19:4] "Do not turn toward idols; nor should you make a graven god for yourselves". Rabbi Yeruchum Levovitz, zt"l, the Mir Mashgiach, pointed out an inconsistency in this verse. The verse begins by speaking of idols (elilim), which are worthless pieces of stone or metal or rock. Then in the same verse, the Torah continues and calls, that which, just moments ago, was a worthless inanimate object, a graven god (Elohei Masecha). How does a worthless stone become a Deity?

On the verse "You should have no other gods (Elohim Acherim) before Me" [Shmos 20:3], the Medrash says 'Does that imply there are other gods? Rather, it means others (Acherim) make them into gods (Elohim).'

This Chaza"l is telling us an unbelievable thing: We can take and make a god out of anything. That which yesterday we created out of our own hands and was merely an idol (Elil), if we glorify it and praise it and give it honor, then we have made it into a god.

Don't turn to the Elilim -- because once you stray and give prominence to even the Elil [idol], that Elil turns into an Eloha [God]. It can be Deified. Our own actions can turn even the lowest of objects into gods.

Two or three thousand years ago, when people were primitive, they believed in such nonsense. They took items out of stone, out of metal, out of gold, and out of silver and they turned them into gods. They were stupid, backward and ignorant. But we are modern men!

We are just like them. We also take gold and we take silver, and turn them into gods! Except, instead of turning the gold into a god in the form of a little man or a little eagle, we turn the gold into a god, in the shape of a coin.

We also Deify inanimate objects. That which was an Elil yesterday, becomes an Eloha today.

Recently, when I was out of town, on my way home from shul, I noticed a fellow washing his car. But this fellow was not merely washing his car -- he was scrubbing the tires! He was sitting on his knees, with the brush and the water and the soap, scrubbing -- not the car, but the tires! Two minutes after he starts driving the car, what are those tires going to roll over? What will they look like? But you can make a god out of a tire.

The next day, which was Shabbos, I took a walk around Lake Washington, where I saw the pleasure boats in the water. (Pardon me. Calling them boats is not doing them justice.) There was a fellow sitting on his yacht, enjoying Olam HaZeh [the pleasures of this world]. What was he doing? Polishing his chrome. It was a hot day and he was making sure that the metal shined.

This fellow has his tires. This fellow has his yacht. Have we at all changed? Have we advanced any further from the "gods of metal you shall not make for yourself?" It is the same gold. It is the same silver. It is the same inanimate objects that we know are just inanimate pieces of wood and metal and rubber. But unfortunately, we have the power of turning them into our gods.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2010, 04:44:46 PM »
No.

You're wrong on this, muman613.

Torah clearly has a passage where Moshe is told by Ha'Shem that He is the Creator of all the other lesser gods worshipped by other peoples.

I remember how stunned I was when I read it with my own eyes, because I had been told this long ago by a Christian and I had responded to them that they couldn't possibly know what they were talking about!

You are presuming that that which you yourself have always been told and always believed is exactly what is written in Torah, and this is a most common mistake.


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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2010, 04:46:19 PM »
No.

You're wrong on this, muman613.

Torah clearly has a passage where Moshe is told by Ha'Shem that He is the Creator of all the other lesser gods worshipped by other peoples.

I remember how stunned I was when I read it with my own eyes, because I had been told this long ago by a Christian and I had responded to them that they couldn't possibly know what they were talking about!

You are presuming that that which you yourself have always been told and always believed is exactly what is written in Torah, and this is a most common mistake.



You should write what passage you are referring to... I don't know what you are talking about..

When Torah refers to 'other gods' it refers to the angels which overlook all the nations. The Jewish people have no angel which overlooks them, they have Hashem alone. Hashem is the G-d of the Children of Israel.

Here is some back-up for my statement:

http://vbm-torah.org/archive/ramban/08ramban.htm

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Ramban #08: The Reality of Evil

This week's shiur is a continuation of the previous one, in that it is concerned with the nature of evil. The topic, however, is not the suffering of man, but the metaphysical nature of evil itself, and its place in the Divine reality. As such, the discussion will not be moral in nature, but metaphysical, and the question that lies behind the Ramban's analysis is not the goodness of G-d but the unity of G-d.

Our text is the commentary of the Ramban to parashat azazel, the goat sent out to the desert on Yom HaKippurim (Vayikra, 16,8). The practice of releasing a goat, described as a sin-offering, to the desert, to azazel, raises obvious philosophic difficulty, but also a halakhic one, since any sacrifice, even if were to G-d, is prohibited outside the sanctuary. To this one must add the difficulty with the word azazel, which has no clear meaning in Hebrew.

The Ramban begins by explaining that azazel refers to some sort of evil power (as opposed to the explanation of Rashi that it means a "hard and rocky place"). He first cites the Ibn Ezra, who hints that the explanation of azazel is found at the end of thirty-three. The Ramban, who, as we know, believes in not disclosing secrets, nevertheless here feels free to explain the Ibn Ezra, since, as he states, Chazal have already done so in several places. The reference of the Ibn Ezra is, as R. Chavel explains in a footnote, to the thirty-third verse following the present one, which is "and they shall no longer offer their sacrifices to the demons…" (17,7). The Ramban then cites Bereishit Rabba which associates the sa'ir hamishtalei'ach (the "sent goat") with Eisav ("ish sa'ir" – a hairy man). The Ramban, of course, understands this not as the historical figure of the brother of Yaacov, but as the twin and opposite figure to Yisrael, the power of evil. He makes this explicit in his next quote, from Pirkei d'Rabi Eliezer, that identifies the destination of the se'ir hamishtalei'ach as Samael. We now have only to understand who is Samael.

The quote from Pirkei D'Rabi Eliezer is as follows:

That is why on Yom Kippur  they would give Samael a bribe to not cancel their sacrifice, as is written, "one lot to G-d and one lot to azazel," the lot of G-d is a burnt-offering, and the lot of azazel is a goat of sin-offering, and all the sins of Israel are on it. Samael sees that there is no sin in them on Yom Kippur. He says to G-d: Master of the worlds, you have one people on earth who are like the ministering angels in heaven – just as the ministering angels are barefoot, so Israel is barefoot on Yom Kippur; just as the ministering angels neither eat nor drink, so Israel does not eat or drink on Yom Kippur, just as the ministering angels cannot bend, so Israel stands all Yom Kippur; just as the ministering angels, peace serves as an intermediary between them, so Israel, peace serves as an intermediary between them on Yom Kippur; just as the ministering angels are free of all sin, so Israel is free of all sin on Yom Kippur.

G-d hears the testimony of Israel from their accuser and He atones for the altar, and for the Temple, and for the priests, and for all the congregation.

It is clear from this quote that azazel is Samael, who is the "accuser" of Israel; in other words, the satan. The Ramban goes on to explain.

See, they have told his name and his actions. And this is the secret of the matter. For they used to worship other gods, who are the angels, offering them sacrifices which are for them a sweet savor (rei'ach nicho'ach)…. Now the Torah totally prohibited the acceptance of their divinity or any worship of them, but G-d commanded that on Yom Kippur we send a goat to the desert to the prince who rules in desolate places, which is appropriate as he is the master of (that place), and from the emanation of his strength comes destruction and desolation, for he is the cause of the stars of the sword and blood and wars and quarrels and wounds and plagues and division and destruction, and, in general, the soul of the sphere of Mars. And his portion among the nations is Eisav, who is the nation who inherits the sword and wars. And among the animals, (his portion is) the goat, and in his portion are also the demons who are called mazikim in the language of the Rabbis, and se'irim in the language of Scripture, for both he and his nation are called se'ir (= goat, demon, and another name for Edom, the land of Eisav).


The Ramban is describing here a picture of evil – the forces of strife, desolation and destruction – that ascribes to it metaphysical reality. The gods of the nations are also real, and identified with angels, who are princes of different areas of the world. One of those angels, the prince of Eisav and the "soul" of Mars, is the source of the power of evil in the world.

The figure of Samael as an angel of G-d whose job is to be the "accuser," a sort of prosecuting attorney in the court of G-d, is familiar from rabbinic literature. But the association of the satan with the forces of evil, of war and destruction, is new with the Ramban. The Ramban here combines astrology (the star of Mars as the source of bloodshed) with demonology and with the traditional Jewish political dichotomy (Yaacov and Eisav), and puts it in a package of angels, divine beings who are in fact the gods of the nations. In so doing, the Ramban confers reality on idolatry, claiming that the nations worship real and powerful beings. What is even more striking, he confers reality on evil, a force with its own dominion (the desert) and celestial power (Mars) and guardian angel (Samael).

This idea is developed extensively in the Zohar under the name sitra achra, the "other side," meaning the other side as opposed to the "side of kedusha." At times, in later development, it became so powerful a force as to resemble dualism, with two warring forces of good and evil dividing the world between them. We are skirting very closely with a challenge to strict monotheism here, and the Ramban's warning that the Torah prohibits our worshipping these gods is not sufficient to blunt the metaphysical challenge to the unitarian basis of Judaism. The Ramban's defence against the dangers of dualism is found in his explanation of the rite of the se'ir hamishtalei'ach.
...

http://www.pardes.org.il/online_learning/halacha/trees.php

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bulletIs Man a Tree of the Field?

There are two major interpretations of the comparison made between man and tree in Deuteronomy 20:19. The first - Ibn Ezra and Nahmanides - finds a causal connection between man and tree because human life is dependent on trees: "Because man['s life is made from the] tree of the field."

Some midrashim, point out the similarity between man and tree, inferring that every plant and tree has a Divine spark within and an angel above encouraging it to grow and that every person has a "tree-like spark" within him. Other midrashim, however, - Rashi and Sforno - read the verse as a question, "Is man a tree of the field?" asking, if you hate certain people and wage war against them, why should you cut down an innocent tree?

The Maharal answers the question, "Is man a tree of the field?" by explaining that the difference between the tree and man is that the roots of the tree are in the earth, whereas the roots of man are in Heaven.

Both the similarity and the difference between man and tree can be seen in the account of Honi Ha'Maagel, who, during a terrible drought, dug a trench around himself and stood inside it, saying, "Lord of the universe...I swear by Your great name that I will not move from here until you take pity on Your children" (Mishna Taanit 3:8). A self-imposed tree encircled in parched soil, Honi cried out for water. Immobile, he waited for G-d to bring rain and release him.

One more:



Quote
http://www.shemayisrael.com/Parasha/kahn/archives/mishpatim67.htm
Actions louder than words
We have no clear information in which way G'd offered the Torah to the nations of the world. Our sages teach that every nation has an angel representing it in the Heavenly Court (see Daniel 10:20). It is possible that the Torah was offered to each nation through this heavenly representative. However, there may be another way to understand this Midrash. This is based on the concept that actions speak louder than words. We sometimes find in the Agadaic literature that our sages quote a person, or a group of people, having said something when referring to their actions rather than their actual words.

Quote
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/115,2452405/Parashat-Noach.html#articlepage
G-d set up the workings of the world such that ideally, His beneficence flows primarily and directly to the forces of holiness and goodness, in order that they have what they need to carry out His purpose. Only a residual flow of beneficence reaches the forces of evil—enough to keep them in existence so that they can fulfill their role in the scheme of things. Evil also does not receive its life-force directly from G-d; rather, each nation receives its Divine flow via its celestial, spiritual archetypal angel (or “prince”). This is why non-Jews are allowed to believe in a certain degree of idolatry, i.e., that G-d shares or distributes His power to other celestial beings.

However, when those who should be acting righteously sin, they forfeit their preeminence and increase the power of evil, allowing it to receive the Divine flow first. The forces of good then have to receive their beneficence via the forces of evil. This is the condition of exile.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 05:04:46 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2010, 05:13:19 PM »
Re:  "That pastor should take up a yoga class to chill out for a moment and remove a little of the irrational fear in his heart. "

Seen in terms of the pastor's Christian Doctrine, he is absolutely correct.

Christianity, unlike Buddhism or Hinduism, is NOT a religion of "all inclusiveness" or even "tolerance" of other faiths, at least not when it comes to its view of Salvation for mankind.

Christianity has no room for competing ideas; insisting that "There is only ONE WAY to achieve Salvation and that is to follow Jesus and Jesus only."

Nor does Judaism make room for the theology and practices of India.

It stresses that Jews received Torah and must follow it EXCLUSIVELY.

Vedic Hinduism, by contrast, accepts almost limitless doctrines, gods, and practices under its "huge umbrella".

Like it or not, Yoga is inextricably intertwined with Vedic Hinduism, just as chanting a Mantra from the Buddhist Sutras while seated in the Lotus Position and meditating on a Mandala is inextricably intertwined with Buddha and his teachings.

To practice even the Westernized versions of Yoga is to by necessity become aware of, and incorporate, concepts and spiritual teachings which stand in contradiction to each and every idea put forth in both Judaism as well as Christianity.

Sorry to upset you practitioners, but the facts is the facts.


Offline muman613

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2010, 05:25:21 PM »
Re:  "That pastor should take up a yoga class to chill out for a moment and remove a little of the irrational fear in his heart. "

Seen in terms of the pastor's Christian Doctrine, he is absolutely correct.

Christianity, unlike Buddhism or Hinduism, is NOT a religion of "all inclusiveness" or even "tolerance" of other faiths, at least not when it comes to its view of Salvation for mankind.

Christianity has no room for competing ideas; insisting that "There is only ONE WAY to achieve Salvation and that is to follow Jesus and Jesus only."

Nor does Judaism make room for the theology and practices of India.

It stresses that Jews received Torah and must follow it EXCLUSIVELY.

Vedic Hinduism, by contrast, accepts almost limitless doctrines, gods, and practices under its "huge umbrella".

Like it or not, Yoga is inextricably intertwined with Vedic Hinduism, just as chanting a Mantra from the Buddhist Sutras while seated in the Lotus Position and meditating on a Mandala is inextricably intertwined with Buddha and his teachings.

To practice even the Westernized versions of Yoga is to by necessity become aware of, and incorporate, concepts and spiritual teachings which stand in contradiction to each and every idea put forth in both Judaism as well as Christianity.

Sorry to upset you practitioners, but the facts is the facts.




There are many forms of Jewish meditation, especially the Chassidic form called Hisbodedus:

http://www.nachalnovea.com/breslovcenter/articles/article_meditation.html

http://www.nachalnovea.com/breslovcenter/articles/article_conversation.html

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Hisbodedus: The Divine Conversation

Selections From Rabbi Nachman's Advice (Likutei Eitzot)
Translator: Avraham Greenbaum
Breslov Research Institute 1983

To taste the hidden light of Torah, the secrets which will be revealed in time to come, you should seclude yourself as much as you can to pray and speak to G-d. Take a good look at yourself and make a reckoning. What are you doing with your life? How is your time spent? Is this the right way to spend your life - to behave as you do before the Holy One, blessed be He, who bestows goodness upon you every moment of the day? Weigh all the different aspects of your life very carefully. If you make yourself the judge over everything you are doing, you will be able to rid yourself of all fears and worries. You will never be afraid of earthly powers - princes or rulers, wild beasts, robbers or the like. Nothing in the world will frighten you. Only before G-d will you stand in fear and reverence. This is the way to elevate the fear that is within you to its true root, which is in Da'at, understanding. You will attain perfect knowledge, because you will know before Whom to stand in awe: G-d alone, in His greatness and glory. Then you will be able to understand the revealed Torah and you will attain genuine humility. You will learn how to put your whole soul into your prayers. All sense of self and physical being will be totally nullified as you pray, and you will be able to pray without any thought of personal gain. When you reach the point where your sense of self and physicality totally disappear, as if you were simply not in the world at all, then you will discover the hidden secrets of the Torah. This is the concealed light that is destined to be revealed in time to come. All this you can achieve through hisbodedus, secluded prayer (15).

***

When a person meditates and speaks to G-d, the very words he speaks are ruach hakodesh, the holy spirit. As soon as a person makes this meditation a regular practice and prepares himself, indeed forces himself to speak to G-d, then G-d Himself sends the words to his mouth.

Make sure that the words you say are always new and fresh. Search out new ways to appeal to G-d. Always choose words that will find favor. Purify your heart by devoting your mind to thoughts of Torah and holiness, and then you will find the right way to meditate and speak to G-d (21, 156).

***

Letters of Torah are present throughout the Creation. By expressing your yearning and desire in words, you invest these letters with strength for good. You give new life and strength to everything, drawing goodness and blessing into all the worlds. Numberless souls are stirred to make their own return to G-d, all through the words of the prayer you utter before your Maker. How precious are the longing and yearning which you express before G-d. The main thing is actually to pronounce the words. Make a regular practice of this and spend a lot of time each day working on it. It will help the whole world (31:8,9).

***

Everyone must strive to be totally merged with the Source of his being. To achieve this requires bittul, self‑nullification. The only way to attain bittul is through secluded prayer with G-d. When a person goes aside to converse with G-d, he nullifies everything else and attaches himself only to G-d. In this way he becomes merged with his Source (52).

***

The best time to seclude yourself to pray is at night, when everyone is asleep. Ideally you should go to a place outside the city and follow a solitary path, somewhere that people don't go even in the day‑time. Empty your heart and your whole consciousness of all your involvements in the everyday world. Then work to nullify all of your character traits, one after the other, until in the end you nullify all sense of self completely. First work on one character trait, then another and another, until you reach the point where you are free of any self-centeredness and any sense of independent existence. You must be as nothing in your own eyes. Then you will be worthy of attaining true bittul, and your soul will be merged with its root. The whole universe will be merged with you in your Source. You and everything with you will be merged in the Unity of G-d (Ibid.).

***

The ideal time for hisbodedus is at night: seclude yourself and express yourself before G-d. Speak with all your heart and search out the goodness of your soul. Find the good points which are within you and cleanse them of all the evil in the soul until you pour out your heart like water before G-d. This is the way to attain true joy and to subdue the power of fantasy, which is the source of all lust and desire. Through this you can acquire a good memory - which means always to remember the World to Come and never to lose sight of the end purpose of this life and its ultimate destiny. This is how you can return to G-d (54).

***

A person may be praying with great intensity or at the height of meditation, when suddenly he falls from his level. This is because somewhere there is a flaw in his faith. He should feel heartbroken and ashamed. How could he fall from heaven to earth? He should arouse tender pity for himself because of his plight. He should literally sigh! This sigh will bring him back to his level (108).
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http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/413,206/Is-there-a-Jewish-way-to-meditate.html

The Hebrew word most commonly used to connote meditation is Hitbodedut  - translated as isolation, being alone. Drawing inwards. Given the way we operate, we are filled with the noise of the world to the point that we derive our sense of being alive from it. To be alone and to have stillness is frightening for most people. Meditation weans one from the dependency on the external and redirects the focus inward. Jewish meditation is designed to focus on the center of all reality, the Creator, and to forge a connection between the self and G-d. n Hebrew, the word most commonly used to connote meditation is "Hitbodedut"--translated as isolation, being alone, or drawing inwards. Given the way we operate, we are filled with the noise of the world to the point that we derive our sense of life from it. To be alone and to have stillness is frightening for most people.

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/413,206/Is-there-a-Jewish-way-to-meditate.html
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2010, 06:44:49 PM »
Yoga and meditation are not one and the same thing, and meditating as a Jew can not be construed to be "a form of Yoga".


Offline Rubystars

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2010, 07:10:58 PM »
Many rationalists and atheists in the West condemn Christianity as 'demoniac'. What does he say to that? When someone criticizes Christianity, it is intolerance but when Christians criticize other religions, it is alright?

I don't think most rationalists or atheists even beleive in demons, so how could they say anything is demonic? Christianity considers religions like Hinduism to be false religions, not a valid path to G-d.

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This pastor needs yoga to balance his mind. To remove hatred from his heart.

So now it's hatred not to follow Hindu practices and say they are wrong for Christians?

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Yoga consists of physical exercises and meditation among other things. But u need not meditate on Hindu Gods alone. U can meditate on Christ or even Allah based on ur faith. How can meditating of Christ be anti-Christian? These middlemen called priests, pastors and mullahs are just afraid of loosing importance.

Christians can "meditate" on Scriptures without using practices of Hinduism.

Quote
A sane person needs to refer to history and find which people butchered the most number of people, and then contemplate who really is "demonic"

Not really relevant to the idea of whether or not such Yoga is acceptable within the doctrine of Christianity. Christians aren't supposed to make up their own sacraments.

Offline JTFenthusiast2

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2010, 10:25:02 PM »
I have always felt calm after doing Yoga.  I dont know why Hashem wouldn't want me to take part in a healthy exercise of mind and spirit.  I can do more good in the world if I am relaxed and centered.

Offline Iron Greek

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Re: US pastor calls yoga demonic
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2010, 03:42:34 AM »
Wemon that practice yoga are wonderful in bed!