Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"

[Irish Zionist]

What has this to do with celebrating Xmas in Israel?

Everything. Celebrating the birth and life of Jesus is most logically done in Israel, from a Christian perspective. That doesn't mean we want to harm the Jews. I certainly believe that Israel belongs to the Jewish people.

So why can't you respect Jewish law then? Jews are NOT allowed to worship false idols. Xmas is a celebration of false idols. Jews aren't allowed to believe in Jesus and to have people celebrating his birth in their homeland is obscene.

[Rubystars]

I know you are simply reacting to what you perceive as 'attacks' on your religion. But don't you realize that this is absolutely against our religion?

Tourism of Christians in Israel is against Judaism?

We believe very strongly that Israel is the Jewish state and should only honor Hashem and not any other religion in the land.

I don't think that Jewish taxpayers should fund a Christian celebration in Israel. On that I think we can be on the same page. That would be, to a certain degree, an official endorsement of another religion besides Judaism. i can understand why that would be upsetting. However simply allowing a tourist, of their own accord, to follow their own religion without pushing it on others is not an endorsement of those practices.

I can bring you quotes from Torah which very strongly demonstrate what happens to the Jewish people when they follow the gods of others...

That would be a problem only if missionizing is allowed.

PS: I do believe that a miracle happened to save these miners.

yes

[Rubystars]

What has this to do with celebrating Xmas in Israel?

Everything. Celebrating the birth and life of Jesus is most logically done in Israel, from a Christian perspective. That doesn't mean we want to harm the Jews. I certainly believe that Israel belongs to the Jewish people.

So why can't you respect Jewish law then? Jews are NOT allowed to worship false idols. Xmas is a celebration of false idols. Jews aren't allowed to believe in Jesus and to have people celebrating his birth in their homeland is obscene.

We're not asking Jews in Israel to worship Jesus or a false idol of any kind. Where did you get that idea? Allowing tourism of non-Jews isn't the same as Jewish people celebrating it.

[Irish Zionist]

Tourism of Christians in Israel is against Judaism?

Why are you twisting Mumans words?
He is against celebrating Xmas is Israel. What don't you understand?

[TheCoon]

Ruby, they just don't get it and simply don't ever want to.

[Rubystars]

Ruby, they just don't get it and simply don't ever want to.

You're probably right.

[Irish Zionist]

We're not asking Jews in Israel to worship Jesus or a false idol of any kind. Where did you get that idea? Allowing tourism of non-Jews isn't the same as Jewish people celebrating it.

But celebrating Xmas exposes Jews to false idols.

[Rubystars]

Tourism of Christians in Israel is against Judaism?

Why are you twisting Mumans words?
He is against celebrating Xmas is Israel. What don't you understand?

Why do you think Christians would go to Israel, to suddenly throw away their faith once they enter the country? Of course they would celebrate Christmas if they're there at that time of year.

We're not asking Jews in Israel to worship Jesus or a false idol of any kind. Where did you get that idea? Allowing tourism of non-Jews isn't the same as Jewish people celebrating it.

But celebrating Xmas exposes Jews to false idols.

I disagree about Jesus being an idol, but as for exposing them to a different religion, there are already Christians that live in Israel, so it's really nothing new. Also if they're not allowed to missionize I think that would solve any additional problems that would come with more pilgrims.

[Irish Zionist]

Ruby, they just don't get it and simply don't ever want to.

Plz explain what you mean by that.

[Rubystars]

I'm going to go rest for a while but I'll recheck the thread tonight.

[Irish Zionist]

Why do you think Christians would go to Israel, to suddenly throw away their faith once they enter the country? Of course they would celebrate Christmas if they're there at that time of year.

Israel is a Jewish state with Jewish Laws. It says clearly one must NOT worship false idols in The Land of Israel.

[Zelhar]

Having said that, I think Israel the Christian pilgrimage tourism is beneficial to Israel and so Christian pilgrims are welcome to visit. So I don't see anything shameful in hosting these miners.

You see nothing shameful in celebrating Xmas in Israel? Am I the only one who see's something wrong here?

I don't think it's my job or Israel's concern what sort of rituals people are practicing as long as they don't disturb the peace, quiet and order. I understand that if people would come out to the Jewish street, erect an idol and started worshiping it, that would be offensive. But what's going on within the confines of their churches and their houses is not my concern.

[Yaakov Mendel]

I can't see what's wrong in allowing Christians to celebrate Christmas in Israel as long as this is done within the Christian community.

[muman613]

I can't see what's wrong in allowing Christians to celebrate Christmas in Israel as long as this is done within the Christian community.

I can't see what's wrong with allowing Jews to celebrate Channukah in the Vatican as long as this is done within the Jewish community..

BTW: Avodah Zarah is not exclusively Idol Worship... It simply means Strange Worship {i.e. a mode of worship not known to the patriarchs}...

http://www.steinsaltz.org/learning.php?pg=Daf_Yomi&articleId=2046

Masechet Avodah Zarah - An Introduction to the Tractate
August 16, 2010

The prohibition against Avodah Zarah - idol worship - is the most severe prohibition in the Torah. It includes the belief and worship of all deities whether on their own or in concert with God, whether they are perceived as spiritual, natural forces or animals. Any worship of these deities, whether worshiping the concept, the thing itself or a representative object, is forbidden as Avodah Zarah. This prohibition appears in the Ten Commandments and is repeated throughout the Torah and the books of the prophets. In explanation of the severity of this act it must be understood that idol worship is the antithesis of the most basic Jewish concept, that is, the belief in a single, unique God who rules over all things. The Rabbinic statement that expresses this idea states "Whoever accepts Avodah Zarah denies the entire Torah."

Due to the severity of this prohibition, we find that the Torah commands us not only to refrain from idol worship, but also to destroy it and to stay away from it and from its adherents in a variety of different ways. Thus we are forbidden from following the ways of idol worshipers or attempting to appear like them (see, for example, Vayikra 18:3). The Sages added further limitations whose purpose is to discourage interaction with Avodah Zarah and its followers.

Masechet Avodah Zarah is found in Seder Nezikin as one of the tractates that follows Masechet Sanhedrin, and it expands on the ideas that are found there. While Masechet Sanhedrin focuses on the criminal aspects of Avodah Zarah, the punishments for its worship, and so on, Masechet Avodah Zarah deals with what is permissible and what is forbidden, under what circumstances, etc.
 
Another interesting aspect of Avodah Zarah that is discussed in Masechet Sanhedrin is the fact that Avodah Zarah is forbidden not only to Jews but to all people of the world, as it is one of the Seven Noachide laws. This impacts on Jews, as well, since they are commanded to destroy the idol worship in the land of Israel and, theoretically, throughout the world. Even if is not within the power of the Jewish people to accomplish this, nevertheless Jews are not allow to support those who want to worship idols or assist them in doing so.

As noted, the focus of Masechet Avodah Zarah is on the need to remove oneself from idol worship and things connected with it. It is forbidden to derive benefit from the idols themselves, as well as their ornaments and donations made to them, and the Sages even decreed a severe level of ritual defilement for coming in contact with them. Similarly, participating in pagan holidays and festivals is forbidden. Much of Masechet Avodah Zarah works at defining the boundaries of what would be forbidden, whether indirect benefit from Avodah Zarah or passive participation in religious ceremonies would be permitted.

Part of the prohibition against benefitting from Avodah Zarah forbids eating food that has been sacrificed as part of a pagan ritual. One aspect of these laws revolves around wine, and specifically yayin nesekh - wine that was libated on an altar to a deity. It was common practice for idol worshipers to pour off a small amount of wine to honor their deity before drinking. Such a libation would prohibit the wine, and the practice was so widespread that it was reasonable to assume that any wine that had been touched by a non-Jew had likely been poured off to a pagan deity. This led to the establishment of a Rabbinic injunction of stam yeinam - that even ordinary wine of non-Jews that had not been used for religious purposes was forbidden. This ruling was made both because of the concern with yayin nesekh as well as because of a general interest in limiting the social interaction between Jews and pagans, as the Gemara teaches (Avodah Zarah 36b) "The Sages decreed about their wine because of their daughters."

 

Since Masechet Avodah Zarah teaches about the need to remove oneself from idol worship and associated practices, it is necessary to describe the details of some of the common activities that were done as Avodah Zarah. What we find in this tractate are mainly descriptions of Greco-Roman pagan practices as they expressed themselves in Israel and surrounding countries during the period of the Talmud. The Talmud anticipates that we will be able to reach conclusions regarding other pagan practices based on what we find here.

 
The teachings of the Torah focus on actual Avodah Zarah, and into the times of the Mishnah and Gemara Jews found themselves living among people who practiced pagan religions. Over time, however, new religions developed whose basis is in Jewish belief - such as Christianity and Islam - which are based on belief in the Creator and whose adherents follow commandments that are similar to some Torah laws (see the uncensored Rambam in his Mishneh Torah, Hilkhot Melakhim 11:4). All of the rishonim agree that adherents of these religions are not idol worshippers and should not be treated as the pagans described in the Torah. Moslems certainly worship a single God and do not offer libations of wine. There are different approaches to Christians, where we find that the Rambam views them as basically pagans, while Tosafot - and even more so the Me'iri - view them as monotheists. Therefore, although many of the laws limiting interaction with non-Jews remain in place in order to avoid intermarriage and assimilation, other laws - e.g. limits on business dealings prior to their holidays - are assumed to be permitted. This is based on statements made in the Gemara that in the Diaspora it is impossible for Jews to avoid such interactions (Avodah Zarah 7b) and that non-Jews living in Diaspora countries are not truly idol worshippers, they are just following the traditions of their fathers (Hullin 13b).

[Yaakov Mendel]

I can't see what's wrong in allowing Christians to celebrate Christmas in Israel as long as this is done within the Christian community.

I can't see what's wrong with allowing Jews to celebrate Channukah in the Vatican as long as this is done within the Jewish community..

BTW: Avodah Zarah is not exclusively Idol Worship... It simply means Strange Worship {i.e. a mode of worship not known to the patriarchs}...

There are many predominantly Christian Western countries where Jews freely celebrate Channukah.

[Zelhar]

I can't see what's wrong in allowing Christians to celebrate Christmas in Israel as long as this is done within the Christian community.

I can't see what's wrong with allowing Jews to celebrate Channukah in the Vatican as long as this is done within the Jewish community..

BTW: Avodah Zarah is not exclusively Idol Worship... It simply means Strange Worship {i.e. a mode of worship not known to the patriarchs}...

It is safe to say that Judaism is more concerned with what Jews do than what gentiles do. I am certain most rabbis are much more concerned that Jews are violating the shabat in Israel, and intermarry themselves to oblivion in the exile.

Also, the Christians have their own churches in Israel which are holy for them, unlike the Muslims, who hold our holiest place and defile it with their smelly murderous mobs every day.

[muman613]

I can't see what's wrong in allowing Christians to celebrate Christmas in Israel as long as this is done within the Christian community.

I can't see what's wrong with allowing Jews to celebrate Channukah in the Vatican as long as this is done within the Jewish community..

BTW: Avodah Zarah is not exclusively Idol Worship... It simply means Strange Worship {i.e. a mode of worship not known to the patriarchs}...

There are many predominantly Christian Western countries where Jews freely celebrate Channukah.

But the entire land of Eretz Yisroel is a holy land for the Jews.

[muman613]

Listen,

I don't believe that this thread should become a Jew vs. Christian thing. I just want to say that it is  very sad that the Jewish state will invite foreigners to worship a non-Jewish G-d. I dont really mind what Christians do, they have many many states in which to worship. Christians have been good to Jews in the last century and that is a good thing... But I would wish that Christians have some respect for their Jewish brothers and sisters and respect the sanctity of the land. While it is true many Jews living in the land are completely secular and bring the level of Eretz Yisroel down these Jews can still do teshuva. A part of the problem when the state brings in foreign worship is that it may lead its Jewish citizens to go off the path and follow other G-ds. When Jews do this they are GARUNTEED to be thrown off the land. The Torah says point blank that the land will vomit out the Jewish inhabitants once they worship other gods... This is THE WORST sin a Jew can do, especially in the land of Israel..

http://www.tzemachdovid.org/thepracticaltorah/acharei.shtml

[Dr. Dan]

I might be talking out of my butt on this one so forgive me if I offend any of you on this take:

I think it's fine and all that these 33 miners come and visit Israel.  If they are Christian they aren't going to worship in synogogues Christianity.  They are going to existing churches wherever they might be in Jerusalem.  I doubt these miners have anything against Jews.

In the end of times when the Moshiach comes, in my opinion, righteous gentiles who happen to be Christian will know and pursue what is right in Judaism's eyes whether it is Noahidism or Judaism.

I love our righteous Christian gentiles.  Despite our disagreements in theology, you still believe in Gd and good moral things and for me that's sufficient for the time being.  I mean we can't agree on everything, right?  However, we can work together and discuss our differences respectably.

[Yaakov Mendel]

I can't see what's wrong in allowing Christians to celebrate Christmas in Israel as long as this is done within the Christian community.

I can't see what's wrong with allowing Jews to celebrate Channukah in the Vatican as long as this is done within the Jewish community..

BTW: Avodah Zarah is not exclusively Idol Worship... It simply means Strange Worship {i.e. a mode of worship not known to the patriarchs}...

There are many predominantly Christian Western countries where Jews freely celebrate Channukah.

But the entire land of Eretz Yisroel is a holy land for the Jews.

I guess I'm just more liberal than you, Muman... We have Christian friends and I want them to be able to celebrate Christmas in the churches of Israel if they happen to be there at that time of the year...

[muman613]

I can't see what's wrong in allowing Christians to celebrate Christmas in Israel as long as this is done within the Christian community.

I can't see what's wrong with allowing Jews to celebrate Channukah in the Vatican as long as this is done within the Jewish community..

BTW: Avodah Zarah is not exclusively Idol Worship... It simply means Strange Worship {i.e. a mode of worship not known to the patriarchs}...

There are many predominantly Christian Western countries where Jews freely celebrate Channukah.

But the entire land of Eretz Yisroel is a holy land for the Jews.

I guess I'm just more liberal than you, Muman... We have Christian friends and I want them to be able to celebrate Christmas in the churches of Israel if they happen to be there at that time of the year...

I understand... And I have Christian friends to... This is certainly a touchy issue. If we truly believe the Prophecies then we need to stand up for Judaism.

[Irish Zionist]

Listen,

I don't believe that this thread should become a Jew vs. Christian thing. I just want to say that it is  very sad that the Jewish state will invite foreigners to worship a non-Jewish G-d. I dont really mind what Christians do, they have many many states in which to worship. Christians have been good to Jews in the last century and that is a good thing... But I would wish that Christians have some respect for their Jewish brothers and sisters and respect the sanctity of the land. While it is true many Jews living in the land are completely secular and bring the level of Eretz Yisroel down these Jews can still do teshuva. A part of the problem when the state brings in foreign worship is that it may lead its Jewish citizens to go off the path and follow other G-ds. When Jews do this they are GARUNTEED to be thrown off the land. The Torah says point blank that the land will vomit out the Jewish inhabitants once they worship other gods... This is THE WORST sin a Jew can do, especially in the land of Israel..

http://www.tzemachdovid.org/thepracticaltorah/acharei.shtml

Well said Muman

[TheCoon]

Ruby, they just don't get it and simply don't ever want to.

Plz explain what you mean by that.

See here's what's up. I'm not saying those who continually bash Christianity are bad people. I understand you have your religious beliefs and many of them deny the teachings of Christianity. That's fine. But what really gets to me is the comparisons of Christianity to islam or the many ancient pagan religions that existed in the Levant before the modern age. For instance, when muman makes a quotation like:

We believe very strongly that Israel is the Jewish state and should only honor Hashem and not any other religion in the land. I can bring you quotes from Torah which very strongly demonstrate what happens to the Jewish people when they follow the gods of others...

No Jew is being forced in any way to believe anything Christian-related. Which other gods is he talking about? He's talking about pagan deities like Ba'al, Mamon, etc. It just shows an utter lack of respect to us as Christians who love Israel and Jews. Israel is holy to us as well and unlike the muslims, we don't want to steamroll it, kill all the Jews and make it part of some caliphate. So stop comparing us to wild-eyed ishmaelite savages or pagans. Can you understand how offensive it is to have your religion compared to islam or paganism?

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "Israel is a Jewish state with Jewish Laws "

Incorrect.

The State of Israel is a state with no constitution, and a legal system hodgepodge of Ottoman Turkish Law, British Law, and whoever knows what else; much of which finds itself judged inside a military style court of justice.

The Israeli Supreme Court is more often than not only obsessed with making sure any laws not meeting the standards of the EU are null and void, and regularly rules against any and all laws which might protect Jews from terror attack.

It might rightly be said that in the modern State of Israel the secular law structure actually discriminates against Jews and Judaism.

[wonga66]

Bibi has often offered incense on the Altar of Democracy. So much so, that should Israel's population become 49% Jewish and 51% Arab, he would indubitably say that Israel is no longer a Jewish State, it is an Arab state!

Professor Eidelberg www.foundation1.org shows that whilst Judaism can be somewhat compatible with Classical Democracy, it is incompatible with modern Normative Democracy, whence the title of his book "Demophrenia" cf schizophrenia ie Israeli governments, in attempting to reconcile the unreconcilable, has made it and its populace literally mentally ill