Author Topic: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory  (Read 16830 times)

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Offline muman613

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2010, 06:16:53 PM »
It's not MassuhDGoodName offering web links like the following, yet I am denounced as "worse than Hitler" (exact quote from "chai"'), and you, muman613, have the unrighteous chutzpah to take that person's side and ask them to please be patient with my "mocking the Jewish faith! " :

Major rabbi says non-Jews are donkeys, created to serve Jews  Just imagine the uproar if a conservative white minister were to say blacks were created to serve whites. The media would go to town. But when Israel’s former Chief Rabbi says non-Jews were created to serve Jews the media are conspicuosly quiet More ...

and this:

Gilad Atzmon: From Rabbi Yosef to Marx  In case the Goyim cannot find a purpose in their life, Israeli senior Sephardi Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is there to help them out More ...


Typical behavior of those who think they're "Holy men".

You've got serious "issues", Holy Man!  - like a "Messianic Complex", an obsession with "power", and proclaiming Zionism while always having a good excuse why you can't move to Israel.

Don't like what I write?

Of course not!

That's you deliberately provoked this confrontation in the first place.

Massuh,

Please consult with a therapist... You are not making sense. I simply posted some information which Tamar Yonah discussed on her radio show and you are getting all defensive. I really don't know what your problem is but I have almost had it with making excuses for you. Please wise up...

I do not know why you think I think I am 'Holier' than you. I learn, I research, I think, and I try to teach others. There is no sin in this. I have honestly said why I cannot make Aliyah at this time. I am not a hypocrite because I cannot make it to Eretz Yisroel at this time. I hope to inspire other Jews to want to make the step. Why do you have a problem with me concerning this?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2010, 06:18:00 PM »
Re:  "I really don't know what your problem is but I have almost had it with making excuses for you. Please wise up... "

You're a sneak, a liar, and a fraud, muman613, AND YOU KNOW IT!

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2010, 06:19:41 PM »
muman613,

You don't even scan a neo-Nazi website first, before putting the link on this forum?

And so you're going to purposely attack me for pointing it out?

It's easy to see how righteous you really are!

Offline muman613

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2010, 06:20:06 PM »
Re:  "I really don't know what your problem is but I have almost had it with making excuses for you. Please wise up... "

You're a sneak, a liar, and a fraud, muman613, AND YOU KNOW IT!

Are you really a Jew? Or do you just play one on TV?
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2010, 06:20:47 PM »
muman613,

You don't even scan a neo-Nazi website first, before putting the link on this forum?

And so you're going to purposely attack me for pointing it out?

It's easy to see how righteous you really are!

Massuh,

It was an innocent mistake and I have removed the link. But that is not your problem is it? You have a deep-seated jealousy of my faith...

PS: When did I attack you? I was defending you in the Torah Ideas section.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2010, 06:25:30 PM »
Q: Are Amerindian languages descended from Hebrew, Ancient Egyptian, Scandinavian or Celtic languages?


A: No. The people who claim this are trying to prove that American Indians arrived in the Americas very recently (see Could Native Americans be recent immigrants? and Are Native Americans a lost tribe of Israel?) I have seen many websites claiming to "prove" that Amerindian languages are descended from Semitic or Germanic languages. 90% of these websites are deliberately lying, making up nonexistant "Algonquian" words that resemble words from Semitic languages. A quick glance at a dictionary of the Amerindian language in question will reveal these websites for what they are. The other 10% are using linguistically unsound methods--searching two languages for any two vocabulary words that begin with the same letter, essentially, and presenting them as evidence. Using this method, English can be "proved" to descend from Japanese--English "mistake" sounds a little like Japanese "machigai". In fact, if you randomly generate some vocabulary with a computer program, you will be able to find a few words with surface resemblance to any language you want. Real linguistic analysis requires dozens of vocabulary relationships which are regular and predictable, as well as similarities in phonology and syntax, to show that one language is related to another. Here's a good website by a Welsh speaker explaining the substantial linguistic differences between Mandan and Welsh, for example, or a website by an Athabaskan linguist explaining the differences between Carrier and Celtic. No linguist has ever shown a relationship between any Amerindian language family and a Semitic, Germanic or Celtic language.

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2010, 06:28:55 PM »
Q: Are Native Americans a lost tribe of Israel, Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, or any other people mentioned in the Bible?

A: No. These Biblical events happened only a few thousand years ago. Native Americans were already here. Also, Middle Easterners are Caucasians. American Indians are Mongoloid. (Indians have epicanthic eye folds, like the Chinese do.) Amerindian languages do NOT show any relation to Semitic languages, this data was faked.

Q: Did a lost tribe of Israel sail to America and join the Indians, maybe?

A: It's doubtful. It would have been a long trip, and there's no evidence to suggest it. No Israelite ruins have been found, no oral histories of native peoples mention it, no Semitic art or technology infusions happened in the Americas, and there aren't any Israelite records of such a journey. When the Vikings landed ships on Newfoundland in the 11th century, there were fewer than 100 of them and they stayed there less than ten years, yet they still left behind identifiable Norse ruins, two Viking sagas, and mention of the event in the oral history of the Mi'kmaq Indians. A permanent settlement of more than a thousand Israelites would surely have left behind even more substantial remains, yet there are none.

Q: But aren't there special similarities between Aztec/Mayan culture and ancient Middle Eastern cultures, such as hieroglyphs, pyramids, symbology, traditional religions, and ethical laws like the Ten Commandments?

A: Well, no. First of all, there is no special similarity between Mesoamerican and Ancient Egyptian writing systems. "Hieroglyph" just means "arcane writing". You could as easily call Klingon writing "hieroglyphs" if you wanted to. None of the languages or writing systems of native America are related in any way to Semitic, Norse, or Celtic ones, and the websites we have seen claiming this have been deliberately lying by providing made-up Indian words to "prove" the similarity. A quick glance at an Indian dictionary is enough to prove that the writers of these websites are inventing their "evidence" from thin air--not behavior that lends much credence to their claims. See here for some further information about how to really determine linguistic relationships.

As for the rest, there is no more similarity between Native American and Ancient Egyptian civilizations than between any two ancient cultures. Traditional religions are particularly different. Most Native American traditional religions were animistic, unlike Middle Eastern religions. Some Central American cultures had pantheons of gods, as Egyptians (and Chinese, and Africans, and many other cultures) did, but these pantheons bore so little resemblance to the familiar Egyptian or Greek gods that it took European anthropologists centuries to even figure them out. Mayan and Egyptian pyramids were constructed so differently that modern anthropologists don't even class them as the same style of architecture, and the use of five- and six-sided stars in Mesoamerican decoration does not show a connection to Christianity and Judaism any more than the use of swastikas in ancient North American decoration shows a connection to Nazism. Stars and swastikas are common patterns that even children will doodle without being taught to. The best argument would be the one about ethical laws, for it is true that traditional Native American morality shares similarities to the Ten Commandments (not stealing, not murdering, and not committing adultery). However, it would be hard to envision an ancient society in which stealing, murdering, and adultery were encouraged. It is rather culturally imperialistic to say that such basic morality must have been learned from Egyptians, Israelites, or Christians. Perhaps it would be better, religiously, to say that the Creator made all human beings capable of understanding good and evil, no matter where they live. It certainly is more accurate anthropologically to observe that all human cultures developed such laws, and that one might as well say that the Chinese and Celts were lost tribes of Cherokee on this basis as that the American Indians were lost tribes of Israel.

Q: But I really, really want to believe that Native Americans are a lost tribe of Israel!

A: No one is stopping you, but using made-up vocabulary lists and implausible 'evidence' to prop up your beliefs is bad science and bad faith. If you want to believe, then believe; you shouldn't need evidence to have faith, and you certainly shouldn't need fake evidence.

I have been receiving quite a bit of profanity laced email from Mormons for showing that those word lists are not real Algonquian words. Please think before you hit the 'send' button: is cursing at people who don't tell lies to make it easier for you to believe things really the image of your church you want to be sending out?

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2010, 06:31:42 PM »
Re:  "PS: When did I attack you? I was defending you in the Torah Ideas section.

Like last night when I was denounced for being "worse than Hitler!" by chai?

Somehow you missed that I guess.

And now you say that  "I'm just jealous of your faith?"

My faith is the same as yours, and for that matter my faith was my faith while you were screwing up the best part of your life marrying out of the fold.

The purpose of Judaism is not merely to read commentary, daven all day, and try to do every single mitzvah without fail.

Those are all the means to the end.

What's in the heart and soul of any sincere uneducated village idiot, Jewish or not, who longs for and loves Ha'Shem, is received long before the empty repetitions of a Yeshiva master who practices every mitzvah and can quote each line in Talmud but has lost their humanity in the process.




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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2010, 06:32:40 PM »
WI,

If you read the original article there is discussion of King Solomons ships sailing great distances. This occured around the time of the second temple. It is certainly possible that these ships could have made the journey to North America. But again, I have no new information. I have just found this entire topic interesting.

As I said when I discussed this earlier... Only a true DNA genetic test will prove whether there is any semitic origin to the Cherokee tribe.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2010, 06:36:15 PM »
WI,

If you read the original article there is discussion of King Solomons ships sailing great distances. This occured around the time of the second temple. It is certainly possible that these ships could have made the journey to North America. But again, I have no new information. I have just found this entire topic interesting.

As I said when I discussed this earlier... Only a true DNA genetic test will prove whether there is any semitic origin to the Cherokee tribe.


phoenicians, maybe, south american indians are different looking than north american indians, so I won't rule it out, but i'm very skeptical. My girlfriends DNA Y chromosome is Q1a3a (can't be traced through female but through male relative). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q1a3a_%28Y-DNA%29

I'm a J2 which is Middle Eastern origin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_%28Y-DNA%29

And that Cherokee tribe in Missouri is fraudulent, their not recognized by any other Cherokee tribe, there are only two federally recognized tribes, one of them being in Ohio. The others are primarily white Europeans who lie about their ancestry and rejected by the federal tribes so made up their own. There are about 300 different fake tribes in different states.

Just do a search for them on powwows.com

Offline muman613

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2010, 06:39:28 PM »
Re:  "PS: When did I attack you? I was defending you in the Torah Ideas section.

Like last night when I was denounced for being "worse than Hitler!" by chai?

Somehow you missed that I guess.

And now you say that  "I'm just jealous of your faith?"

My faith is the same as yours, and for that matter my faith was my faith while you were screwing up the best part of your life marrying out of the fold.

The purpose of Judaism is not merely to read commentary, daven all day, and try to do every single mitzvah without fail.

Those are all the means to the end.

What's in the heart and soul of any sincere uneducated village idiot, Jewish or not, who longs for and loves Ha'Shem, is received long before the empty repetitions of a Yeshiva master who practices every mitzvah and can quote each line in Talmud but has lost their humanity in the process.





My acts of kindness speak for themselves. I treat all of Hashems creations with love and care. Those who love me and know me would vouch for my sincerity in love of doing mitzvot. And my problems in my marriage which occured before I did teshuva will always be a problem. I did not hide this 'dirty' secret. I try to make the best of my life considering the set-backs which have befallen me.

If you would like to discuss my trangressions we can do so in Private Messages because I have dealt with them and I do teshuva each day for these. But you are not my judge, only Hashem will judge me.

Even the most empty Jew is as full of mitzvot as a pomegranate.

Regarding what I wrote the other day... I deleted it shortly after posting it because I did not want to hurt your feelings. Unlike other posters here I do concern myself with the feelings of fellow Jews here at JTF. When I post something which may be taken the wrong way I regret it and try to fix it. What I posted in a knee-jerk reaction to your attacks on Chai was caused by a 'rush to judgement' {if you read my post which discusses Pirkie Avot on Judging I mentioned this one}... I apologize for what I wrote in that post.

 
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline JTFenthusiast2

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2010, 06:42:27 PM »
Hi White Israelite,

That was my point.  Jews typically do not have problems metabolizing alcohol, but Native Americans and many Asians do.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2010, 08:19:32 PM »
I think bashing people of other faiths, including Mormons, is a bad habit for us to get into.  I have known many Mormons and they knew I was Jewish, never tried to convert me, and were good people.  They didn't have 5 wives, they were decent hardworking people who were trying to do good in an often evil world

I don't have a problem with them if they did have 5 wives.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2010, 08:21:32 PM »
Cherokee are not descendant of Jews, my girlfriends half Cherokee half scottish and she looks Asian, she has mongoloid features and her eyes are slanted, very few Jews exhibit any mongoloid features with the exception of Jews of Turkic descent. 

That's anecdotal.

Quote
This is a stupid theory that only afrocentrists or mormons believe.

What is stupid about it?

Quote
Not to mention, even if Native Americans had any Jewish heritage, they wouldn't be Jewish halachically considering we don't consider a Jew someone by race, but by the mother.
  That's certainly true, so it's not really at issue.

Quote
The only exception to that are the Iquitos Jews of Peru.

Who are they?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2010, 08:23:10 PM »
It's not MassuhDGoodName offering web links like the following, yet I am denounced as "worse than Hitler" (exact quote from "chai"'), and you, muman613, have the unrighteous chutzpah to take that person's side and ask them to please be patient with my "mocking the Jewish faith! " :

Major rabbi says non-Jews are donkeys, created to serve Jews  Just imagine the uproar if a conservative white minister were to say blacks were created to serve whites. The media would go to town. But when Israel’s former Chief Rabbi says non-Jews were created to serve Jews the media are conspicuosly quiet More ...

and this:

Gilad Atzmon: From Rabbi Yosef to Marx  In case the Goyim cannot find a purpose in their life, Israeli senior Sephardi Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is there to help them out More ...


Typical behavior of those who think they're "Holy men".

You've got serious "issues", Holy Man!  - like a "Messianic Complex", an obsession with "power", and proclaiming Zionism while always having a good excuse why you can't move to Israel.

Don't like what I write?

Of course not!

That's you deliberately provoked this confrontation in the first place.

Is it possible Muman made an honest mistake?

Why does he have to be perfect because he's a religious Jew?   


Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2010, 08:33:06 PM »
I see there's a lot of controversy surrounding the stone, and Hibben cannot be trusted because of his prior fabrications.   Nonetheless, there's a lot of argument over this.

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2010, 08:50:39 PM »
Cherokee are not descendant of Jews, my girlfriends half Cherokee half scottish and she looks Asian, she has mongoloid features and her eyes are slanted, very few Jews exhibit any mongoloid features with the exception of Jews of Turkic descent. 

That's anecdotal.

Quote
This is a stupid theory that only afrocentrists or mormons believe.

What is stupid about it?

Quote
Not to mention, even if Native Americans had any Jewish heritage, they wouldn't be Jewish halachically considering we don't consider a Jew someone by race, but by the mother.
  That's certainly true, so it's not really at issue.

Quote
The only exception to that are the Iquitos Jews of Peru.

Who are they?


# Amazonian Jews are the mixed descendants of Moroccan Jewish communities in Belém, Santarém, Manaus, Iquitos, Tarapoto and many river villages in the Amazon basin in Brazil and Peru.

    * Iquitos Jews are the "accidental" descendants of mostly Moroccan Jewish traders and tappers who arrived in the Peruvian Amazon city of Iquitos during the rubber boom of the 1880s. Since their Jewish descent was patrilineal (Jewish traders had been all males who coupled up with local mestizo or Amerindian females), their Jewishness is not recognised according to halakha. An enduring casta system stemming from the colonial period has resulted in virtually no interaction between the Iquitos Jews and the small, mostly Ashkenazi Jewish, population concentrated in Lima (under 3,000) who are integrated into Lima's elite white minority. Thanks to efforts made by Israeli outreach programmes, some have formally returned to Judaism, made aliyah and now live in Israel.

# B'nai Moshe are converts to Judaism originally from Trujillo, Peru. They are also known as Inca Jews, a name derived from the fact that they can trace indigenous Amerindian descent, as most are mestizos (persons of both Spanish and Amerindian descent) though none with any known ancestors from other Jewish communities. Again, there is no interaction between Peru's small Ashkenazi population and the Inca Jews. At the neglect of the Ashkenazi community, the conversions were conducted under the auspices of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel. Most have made aliyah and now live in Israel, while a few hundred more of the same community are awaiting conversions.
# Veracruz Jews are a recently emergent community of Jews in Veracruz, Mexico. Whether they are gentile converts to Judaism or descendants of anusim returning to Judaism is speculative. Most claim they descend from anusim.




Offline JTFenthusiast2

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2010, 09:03:10 PM »
WI,

Do you know when and the circumstances surrounding the B'nai Moshe Jews

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2010, 09:22:30 PM »
WI,

Do you know when and the circumstances surrounding the B'nai Moshe Jews

The community was founded in 1966 by a local man of Trujillo named Villanueva, who faced great exclusion and prejudice in his native city as a result of his decision to convert from the Catholic Church to Judaism. Villanueva had visited Spain for a time, learning from the local Sephardic  community, and upon his return, taught around 500 disillusioned former Catholics in Trujillo about Judaism, igniting a spark which would ultimately lead to their conversion to Judaism and joining the Jewish people.

In 1985, Villanueva made contact with the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who sent Rabbi Myron Zuber to Peru to help with their formal conversions. In 1988, Zuber arrived in Peru and aided the converts in matters such as how to properly observe kashrut and Shabbat.

As a result of the Lima community's continuing reluctance, it was eventually decided that the B'nai Moshe could not reach their full potential in Peru, and decided that they make aliyah (emigration) to Israel once converted. A Beit Din initially performed formal conversions for about 300 members of the community in 1991, almost all of whom emigrated to Israel, who were followed by an additional 200 several years later. A community of around 30 B'nai Moshe moved to Lima at the same time, although they continued to face discrimination from the Ashkenazi community[2]. Another 84 were formally converted in 2001.

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2010, 09:23:20 PM »
Converting Inca Indians in Peru
By Rabbi Myron Zuber
It all began in 1966, in the Peruvian city of Trujillo, with a man called Villaneuva, a good Catholic who frequently attended church. It was customary for the people to sing a psalm en route to church. On that particular Sunday they were singing Psalm 121, "I will lift my eyes to the hills..." When he came to the fourth verse, "Behold, the Keeper of Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps," he began to ponder, why shouldn't he join that group of people who have 24-hour Divine supervision? Discussions with his priest could not reconcile his difficulties. After a period of time Villaneuva came to the conclusion that the Catholic Church could not satisfy his spiritual search; he decided to embrace Judaism.

However, in a staunchly Catholic country like Peru one cannot offhandedly dismiss the religion of the country and become Jewish without encountering severe obstacles. Villaneuva was excommunicated from the Church, which posted a sign proclaiming that no one could socialize with him or marry into his family. Villaneuva remained undaunted. The following week, more extreme measures were employed, and Villaneuva discovered that he had no electricity or plumbing. Still he refused to capitulate.

Villaneuva's children were afraid that the tension would erupt into physical blows so they encouraged their parents to go to Spain. While there, he studied Rambam and Abarbanel in Spanish and visited the small Jewish community in Madrid to acquire as much knowledge as possible. After six months, the furor dissipated and the parents returned to Peru.

In the interim, the priest was defrocked by the bishop for having failed to adequately guide his flock. Villaneuva wasted no time and immediately set about educating his contemporaries with his newfound knowledge. It did not take long for him to amass 500 people who also wished to convert to Judaism. Now he faced the problem of what to do with all these people who wished to become Jewish. The small Jewish community in Lima, composed of post-World War II refugees of Polish and Hungarian descent, callously looked down on the Inca Indians as social inferiors. If the Indians attended shul, the Lima Jews would intentionally exclude them; they gave no encouragement, no aliya, no honors. Nobody was receptive to them, nobody invited them to a home or helped them in any way. The Indians returned to their homes totally disheartened.

Villanueva tried to obtain Spanish siddurim and, not being cognizant of the correct dinim, constructed his own tephilin out of wood. (Incidentally, this unusual pair of tephilin, a labor of love and self sacrifice, is presently housed in the Museum of Jews of the Galuth in Israel.) For 20 years Villaneuva struggled single-handedly for the solution to his dilemma.

In 1985 he contacted the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and Lubavitch Rabbi Chadakov immediately got in touch with me since he said I was "proficient in the laws of ritual slaughter and adept at mingling with people." I agreed to travel to Peru to aid these Inca Indians in their quest to become Jewish and immediately enrolled in intensive Spanish studies.

I arrived in Peru in 1988 and discovered that the people were genuinely committed. They davened every day, but, due to the scarcity of tephilin, Villaneuva wore the tephilin first, and after his turn a big line formed and people took five-minute turns using the tephilin.

On Shabbos the entire community got together at long tables for a meal of fish and vegetables. There is an obvious absence of meat or poultry in these people's diet because nobody there knows how to properly slaughter an animal according to Jewish law. Trujillo is 11 hours from Lima, so transporting kosher meat in this hot climate would not be feasible. The women baked their own challah and participants are generally optimistic and jovial.

The Jews in Lima displayed unwarranted prejudice in their refusal to allow these people to use their mikva. Therefore the people in Trujillo use the ocean as a mikva, and the Jews of Cajamarca, further inland, use a nearby waterfall.

Although I was most interested in instructing the congregation about practical matters such as kashrut or Shabbat, they were especially interested in more esoteric concepts such as gilgul (reincarnation) and Mashiach. These people were extremely self-sacrificing. They constantly thought about being Jewish and were prepared to offer all their possessions in order to practice Judaism properly. For example, one woman sold all her jewelry at the market in order to obtain money to pay for tephilin for her son on his bar mitzvah. The woman's husband, who usually finds work only two days a week, traveled to Ecuador to work in the mines so he could obtain enough money to purchase a new suit for the child and a new dress for his wife.

Villaneuva traveled to Lima in order to have a bris. The mohel was more lenient than other Jews there; he felt that if these people sincerely wanted to become Jewish he would not stand in their way.

The people would gather around a table each Sunday to discuss the Sidra and Villaneuva would lead the discussion. One time during the Sidra discussion a person interrupted to comment that he was having car trouble. Villaneuva immediately stopped the trivial side issue and insisted that a table was comparable to an altar; therefore, only holy ideas could be expounded in its presence. On another occasion it was discovered that a man had profaned the Shabbos. Villaneuva immediately excommunicated him despite the man's tears and protest.

The situation came to a head. What would become of these people? It was not possible for them to achieve their potential as Jews if they continued to live in these isolated conditions. The community decided that they would have to relocate either to the United States or Israel.

Villaneuva opted for Israel and everyone agreed to abide by his proposal. He was extremely respected in the community and his advice was always taken.

A Bais Din from Eretz Yisrael came to Peru and converted many of these people. Then two groups of approximately 380 people emigrated to Israel and settled in Elon Moreh, on the West Bank. Most were young people, the older ones being only 43 years of age. They rapidly integrated into Israeli society, far more successfully than the Russian or Ethiopian Jews. Some Inca Indians joined the Israeli army while others found jobs and became productive members of society. They managed to merge into Israeli mainstream society and settled down to a relatively comfortable lifestyle.

After this mass exodus took place, I was under the false impression that there was nothing left of Inca Jewry in Peru. A small number of individuals had chosen to remain because of their jobs. Others voluntarily chose to stay because they felt incapable of starting over and relocating to a foreign country. In no time at all, more people became interested in the Jewish phenomenon and soon there were 200 people who joined the group of committed Jews.

A neighborhood of about 30 Jewish Inca Indians also grew in Lima, and they experienced difficulty with the other Jews of Lima. One problem was that the excellent school established by the Jewish community refused to register a seven-year-old child of a Jewish Incan mother, saying the tuition was too expensive (the mother thought the real reason was that they were prejudiced against her Indian status). The school had accepted two Catholic girls, children of the vice president of the country, and hired a Catholic teacher to provide them with religious instruction. I was extremely upset that the Jewish school was more prepared to provide for Catholic hierarchy than for their own Jewish brethren, who happened to be Indians. I approached the staff of the school and was adamant until they finally relented and admitted the Incan child.

The Lima Jews do not permit the Inca Jews to enter their synagogue, even though the Incans were converted by a Bais Din of Israel.

One day I was approached by a group of women in Trujillo who wished to speak with me privately about nidah (family purity). I was embarrassed by the subject matter and relatively unfamiliar with the intricate details. I decided to suggest that in the future a husband and wife team should visit the Inca Indian Jews, so the woman would be available to discuss matters pertaining to women.

On Shabbos the children sang beautifully, songs they already knew, and other smiros I taught them. Each week somebody would come to the community as a curious observer. One week a man by the name of Serna, a professor of French at the University of Trujillo, came. Extremely impressed by the melodious singing, he suggested the youngsters sing on public television. The children were extremely excited at the possibility and I instructed them regarding the occasion. However Valderama, Villaneuva's successor, refused to allow this. He did not think it a good idea for the Jewish community to be in the limelight; that this would promote antagonism and foster ill feeling.

Before my departure, I helped the group organize shiurim on the weekly Torah portion. I was happy to note that these people are thinking individuals able to figure out resolutions to questions. I invited them to call me collect if they ever encountered questions they were unable to resolve.

I encouraged them to sing and dance, and advised them to incorporate their Indian melodies to Hebrew songs. I taped a beautiful Indian melody used to sing Psalm 121, "I lift up my eyes to the mountains." I did not want them to abandon their culture, but to merge it and make it a part of their new-found Judaism. I encouraged them to dance Indian dances for Yiddishkeit enhancement. Trujillo had a community of 180 when I left.

I traveled to the small community in Cajamarca to make my farewells and planned to stay only a few days. The people were disappointed and asked me what it would take for me to stay. I replied that they only numbered eight, not enough for a minyan. However, if two additional people would agree to have themselves circumcised, I would remain. Two people immediately agreed to this proposal and traveled to Lima to have the operation performed. I extended my stay. The community of Cajamarca eventually plans to go to Israel but the Israeli government wishes to verify their commitment to Judaism. If they are still Jewish after a two-year waiting period Israel will accept them.

Each Incan Jew has taken a new Jewish name to augment his Jewish identity. However, many still retain their Spanish names. One man, ironically, is called Jesus, and it is amusing to comment that Jesus read the Torah portion nicely today. It takes a while to make a total switch from the old Spanish names to the new unfamiliar Jewish names.

Villaneuva changed his name to Tzidkiyahu and is revered as a prophet and leader in Israel. His presence commands respect. Valderama, his successor, longed for a sefer Torah for his shul. He approached the shul in Lima with his request but the Jews refused to give him anything, even though there are a large number of sifrei Torah decomposing in the basement of the Lima shul. I opened one at random and was shocked to witness the escape of numerous cockroaches. The sefer Torah is permitted to house repulsive insects but is forbidden to the Inca Indian Jews.

Undaunted, Valderama set about making his own sefer Torah. Unfamiliar with the dinim entailed in writing a sefer Torah, he proceeded to painstakingly photocopy each page from the Chumash on to parchment. He then sewed the pieces of parchment together to form a Torah scroll. An Israeli museum requested this sefer Torah for purposes of display because they were impressed with this effort.

I always tried to be accommodating and flexible in trying to merge the two cultures. When a congregant asked if he should sit shiva for his Catholic mother, I compromised by telling him that he could sit for one day. Another asked if he should continue placing fresh flowers on his mother's grave. I responded that since flowers are expensive it is more productive to convert this expenditure into tzedakah and give charity in her honor. I sympathize with these people and tried to satisfy their old ties so long as it did not interfere in their Jewish affiliation.

I have been back in the States for a few years now. I remain in telephone contact with my friends in Peru, and my wife visits twice a year to help the women. I spend much of my time speaking about these courageous Jewish Incans, trying to raise donations for their many needs.



Offline Chai

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2010, 04:53:45 AM »
It's not MassuhDGoodName offering web links like the following, yet I am denounced as "worse than Hitler" (exact quote from "chai"'), and you, muman613, have the unrighteous chutzpah to take that person's side and ask them to please be patient with my "mocking the Jewish faith! " :

Major rabbi says non-Jews are donkeys, created to serve Jews  Just imagine the uproar if a conservative white minister were to say blacks were created to serve whites. The media would go to town. But when Israel’s former Chief Rabbi says non-Jews were created to serve Jews the media are conspicuosly quiet More ...

and this:

Gilad Atzmon: From Rabbi Yosef to Marx  In case the Goyim cannot find a purpose in their life, Israeli senior Sephardi Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is there to help them out More ...


Typical behavior of those who think they're "Holy men".

You've got serious "issues", Holy Man!  - like a "Messianic Complex", an obsession with "power", and proclaiming Zionism while always having a good excuse why you can't move to Israel.

Don't like what I write?

Of course not!

That's you deliberately provoked this confrontation in the first place.

 Im loving what you are writing and laughing all the way.


I think you have dementia, I was using the Roseta stone to learn Hebrew better, but now it looks like I have to go to the  Ha-ulpan at Macon Avi (its not cheap). In a few days Im off to Israel because I convinced my friend to go there, so he may fall in love with it ) I will be taking pics of Rav Kahanes site on Nov the 5th and hanging it on my wall. Then Im looking at a Grad schools there and interviews you bum. And Yea im proud of Making this Alia process so I will brag because Ive earned it. If that makes me a "holy man" was it? so be it!

Im a Jew who is going home and wants it to be a JEWISH state. Sue me. Ive volunteered my life for this country now its time to do it for my home.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 05:18:42 AM by Chai »

Offline Chai

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2010, 05:05:59 AM »
Re:  "PS: When did I attack you? I was defending you in the Torah Ideas section.

Like last night when I was denounced for being "worse than Hitler!" by chai?

Somehow you missed that I guess.

And now you say that  "I'm just jealous of your faith?"

My faith is the same as yours, and for that matter my faith was my faith while you were screwing up the best part of your life marrying out of the fold.

The purpose of Judaism is not merely to read commentary, daven all day, and try to do every single mitzvah without fail.

Those are all the means to the end.

What's in the heart and soul of any sincere uneducated village idiot, Jewish or not, who longs for and loves Ha'Shem, is received long before the empty repetitions of a Yeshiva master who practices every mitzvah and can quote each line in Talmud but has lost their humanity in the process.





Your right calling you worse then Hitler was a compliment.... for you.
But you insanity speaks volumes, so much so I dont think I even need to resort to name calling.
"My faith is the same as yours" HAH  :::D

"The purpose of Judaism is not merely to read commentary, daven all day, and try to do every single mitzvah without fail.

Those are all the means to the end".

Good ol often wrong Massa, you er as usual,  The purpose of Judaism is dont do onto other what you dont want to be done to you ( except snakes like Massa who people need to stand up to lol) the rest is commentary go read it!

"The go read it" part is conveniently forgotten for some and being good to man  by others  and all by Massa LOL

My goodness you have such contempt for Judaism Go find the answers that you are bothered by if you are so smart instead of formulating negative things about this faith you think is Judaism you keep criticize. Be upset at people that dont preach what they practice not at the of G-d.

If you dont like the way I represent Judaism then be upset at me not the faith , but its easy to just get upset at the faith at a whole , Stop being bitter you will die young.

Ive asked questions here regarding my faith being shaken but I listen to the other side.

I have tolerance for your Hellenistic wild lifestyle you claim to brag about in your ask post ,G-d bless you, Ive done it too, but dont criticize real Judaism for what its not , I will defend it.

One sad note , my gf just said to me that massa and I  have more in common about the faith than we would like to admit. That made my night.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 05:23:22 AM by Chai »

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2010, 06:37:35 AM »
Most of those so called Cherokee that claim Jewish descent generally look like this


Offline Rubystars

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2010, 09:53:57 AM »
That has to be one of the funniest pictures I've ever seen, WI. It's sad that he is so self-hating about being white that he has to identify with something that's either 1% of his heritage or not there at all. For some reason a lot of Scottish-American families were somehow convinced they had Indian blood due to "high cheekbones".

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Tamar Yonah Supports Jewish American Indian Theory
« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2010, 10:29:41 AM »
Re:  "Your right calling you worse then Hitler was a compliment.... for you.
But you insanity speaks volumes, so much so I dont think I even need to resort to name calling.
"My faith is the same as yours" HAH  rotflmao!

"The purpose of Judaism is not merely to read commentary, daven all day, and try to do every single mitzvah without fail.

Those are all the means to the end".

Good ol often wrong Massa, you er as usual,  The purpose of Judaism is dont do onto other what you dont want to be done to you ( except snakes like Massa who people need to stand up to lol) the rest is commentary go read it!

"The go read it" part is conveniently forgotten for some and being good to man  by others  and all by Massa LOL

My goodness you have such contempt for Judaism Go find the answers that you are bothered by if you are so smart instead of formulating negative things about this faith you think is Judaism you keep criticize. Be upset at people that dont preach what they practice not at the of G-d.

If you dont like the way I represent Judaism then be upset at me not the faith , but its easy to just get upset at the faith at a whole , Stop being bitter you will die young.

Ive asked questions here regarding my faith being shaken but I listen to the other side.

I have tolerance for your Hellenistic wild lifestyle you claim to brag about in your ask post ,G-d bless you, Ive done it too, but dont criticize real Judaism for what its not , I will defend it.

One sad note , my gf just said to me that massa and I  have more in common about the faith than we would like to admit. That made my night.


YOU'RE A SLIMEY KIKE MAMZER, CHAI.

F_C_k you!

PIECE OF C-k SUCKING SCHEISSE, ALONG WITH YOUR MOTHER!