Shalom

[muman613]

Og was a fallen angel in the story of Noah
but in human flesh.

Where do you learn this? I have learned about Og but nobody has said anything about him being an angel. He certainly was a giant...

[muman613]

Regarding the discussion of Og in relation to Noah:

http://www.pardes.org.il/online_learning/weekly-talmud/2008-08-07.php

World of Our Sages: Giants of Old

By Rabbi Levi Cooper

August 07, 2008

Giants were part of the landscape from the earliest biblical times (see Genesis 4:6). These mighty men who once struck fear in the hearts of people suffered two great defeats. Their first rout was at the hands of Chedorlaomer, during the war of the four kings against the five kings (see Genesis 14:5).

In this famous battle, Lot was taken captive - a move that would prove to be fatal for the heretofore triumphant four kings, for one person managed to escape and bring the news of Lot's capture to his uncle Abraham. Abraham quickly entered the fray to rescue his nephew. With his force, Abraham subdued the four kings, freeing Lot and regaining much property that had been plundered by them.

Who was the refugee who brought the news to Abraham and thus turned the tide of the war? The commentators noted the use of the definite article - the survivor - and sought to identify who this news courier was. Some commentators suggested that it was a refugee from the very battle in which Lot was seized. Another suggested that it was a solitary survivor from Lot's camp (Shadal, 19th century, Italy).

Our sages, however, looked further afield for the identity of this news bearer: Who was the ultimate survivor in biblical lore? During the deluge, as all life was being wiped out except for Noah and his ark, Og managed to climb onto one of the ladders on the outside of the ark. As he clung on, he swore to Noah and to his sons to be their slave forever. In exchange, Noah bored a small hole in the ark and each day he would proffer food to the giant, who thus weathered the storm (Pirkei DeRabbi Eliezer 23). Though not included in the ark, Og managed to survive the flood in this manner and for that feat he was known as the survivor (B. Nidda 61a). The survivor who brought the news to Abraham was the famous refugee, Og.

According to one opinion among the sages, Og was driven by shadowy motives: He hoped that Abraham would fall in battle and he could marry the beautiful Sarah (Devarim Rabba 1:25). Whatever his motive, Og who had survived the flood, had now survived the onslaught of the four kings.

Og's survival resolve was shown once more when the fearsome giants were vanquished a second time, this time by the Ammonites (see Deuteronomy 2:20-21).

In this context, Og's magnitude is described in terms of his cradle, which measured nine forearms long and four forearms wide - at least 4.5 meters by 2 meters, perhaps even more depending on whether Og's forearms served as the yardstick. The cradle was not made of wood but of iron so that it could hold this colossal baby's weight (Deuteronomy 3:11).

Maimonides (12th century, Cairo) sought to extrapolate from the size of the cot just how big Baby Og was: A person generally makes his bed a third longer than his height, assumed Maimonides. Thus Og must have measured six cubits in height; an average height of a person, notes Maimonides, is three cubits. Baby Og was therefore double the height of an average person. This huge cot was displayed in the capital city Rabat Bnei Ammon and served as a reminder of victory for the Ammonites who bested the giants (Ramban, 13th century, Spain-Eretz Yisrael). Og for his part moved north and settled in Bashan.

Despite Og's endurance, our sages describe the lead up to his eventual downfall. When the Jewish people reached the area of Edrei on the east bank of the Jordan River, Moses announced: "We camp here tonight, and tomorrow we conquer the city" (Devarim Rabba 1:24).

Early the following morning they set out, but the landscape had changed. Moses looked up and saw Og sitting on the wall of the city with his feet reaching the ground. Not understanding what he saw, Moses wondered: "What's going on, did they build another wall overnight?" The Almighty explained: "Moses, what you see is none other than Og." Moses was frightened, "Do not fear, Moses," reassured the Almighty, "For he will fall before you."

Og saw that the entire camp of Israel was three parasangs square: "I will uproot a mountain of such size and throw it on the entire camp and kill them all," planned the giant (B. Berachot 54b). Og found such a piece of land, picked it up and held it aloft as he planned to bury the Jewish people. The Almighty sent ants which began to bore holes in the uprooted mountain, and clumps of earth began to rain on Og's head. Og tried valiantly to brush the earth off, but his teeth grew, extending downward and locking his head in position.

Og demise was not far. Moses - himself no pipsqueak - was 10 cubits tall. He took an axe with a 10-cubit handle, and he jumped 10 cubits into the air. He reached up and with the axe 30 cubits above the ground he struck Og - in the heel! The blow to the tender "Og's heel" - as perhaps we should call it in our tradition - was sufficient and the giant came crashing down.

What is the legacy of this giant? In days of old, people would surely stare with amazement at the size of Og's cradle. This cradle, however, is no more. The Talmud rules that whoever sees the rock with which Og had planned to crush the Jewish people must recite a blessing praising G-d for miraculous salvation (B. Berachot 54a). We barely recall Og's tenacious ability to survive and the only memento of his exploits was a rock that we can no longer identify.

Alas, the giants of old who so capture our imagination are but a distant memory, alive today only in aggada. Though, perhaps, giants are not only gauged by the measurements of their cradle or the height of their heel or the size of the mountains they uproot.

[Chai]

Og was a fallen angel in the story of Noah
but in human flesh.

Where do you learn this? I have learned about Og but nobody has said anything about him being an angel. He certainly was a giant...

in yeshiva its also in bereshit in noah ill ook it up..btw massa still did nit give us that talmud quote

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "btw massa still did nit give us that talmud quote "

I started to post it, but then remembered that like Kabalah, it is reserved for an exclusive elite which has already fulfilled all the preliminary studies.

And "you guys" clearly don't cut the mustard!             

But regarding OG, he wrote many books during his lifetime.

His family name was Mandino.


                                                 

[muman613]

Og was a fallen angel in the story of Noah
but in human flesh.

Where do you learn this? I have learned about Og but nobody has said anything about him being an angel. He certainly was a giant...

in yeshiva its also in bereshit in noah ill ook it up..btw massa still did nit give us that talmud quote

I did not see anything in Noah {The Torah portion} concerning Og. The discussion of Og occurs in the Midrash... And the discussion I have seen say that he was a Giant, born from a flesh-and-blood mother {hence the discussion of the size of his crib, etc.}...

PS: I found a mention that Sichons father may have been an angel... http://www.globalyeshiva.com/forum/topics/og-melech-habashan?commentId=727216%3AComment%3A34009

Rashi on Genesis 14:13 Parasha Lech Lecha {This weeks portion}

13. And the fugitive came and he told Abram the Hebrew, and he was living in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, the brother of Eshkol and the brother of Aner, who were Abram's confederates.

And the fugitive came: According to its simple meaning, this was Og, who escaped from the battle, and that is what is referred to in (Deut. 3:11): “Only Og survived from the rest of the Rephaim.” And that is the meaning of “survived,” that Amraphel and his allies did not kill him when they smote the Rephaim in Ashteroth-karnaim [Midrash Tanchuma (Chukkath 25)]. The Midrash Gen. Rabbah [explains]: This is Og, who escaped from the Generation of the Flood, and this is the meaning of “from the rest of the Rephaim,” as it is said: (above 6: 4):“The Nephilim were on the earth, etc.” And he [Og] intended that Abram should be killed and he would marry Sarah (Gen. Rabbah 42:8).

[Chai]

Re:  "btw massa still did nit give us that talmud quote "

I started to post it, but then remembered that like Kabalah, it is reserved for an exclusive elite which has already fulfilled all the preliminary studies.

And "you guys" clearly don't cut the mustard!             

But regarding OG, he wrote many books during his lifetime.

His family name was Mandino.


                                                 

Sigh , indeed nothing worse than an arrogant ignoramus. Or more annoying.
I know some greats site for Massa

http://www.hagshama.org.il/en/

http://www.zionistarchives.org.il/za/pMain.aspx

 

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "Sigh , indeed nothing worse than an arrogant ignoramus. Or more annoying. "



Thanks!

I learned from the very best teachers; all right here on the JTF Forum!     

[Chai]

People like you Massa are worse than Hitler. You pretend to be for Kahansim, but all you care about is killing Arabs. That's not what Rabbi Kahane stood for , rather the only excuse one has to drive Arabs out is the Torah. It seems yours is some twisted Jewish pride.

Indeed you are very smart and great at twisting our religion in the name of being concerned and Im sure you fool many people as you are a good thinker , its a shame you use your tongue like snake.

The worst kind of person Is one that considers religious Jew a holier than thou  person , and you are one of them Massa , I used to think like you so I know what you are thinking.

You slander your own religion and you pat yourself on the back for being so smart , meanwhile other people look at you and think "he cant even respect his own religion what does he think of us"?

Ive seen your writing, a person like you can bring many people back to Judaism

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "I know some greats site for Massa
http://www.hagshama.org.il/en/
http://www.zionistarchives.org.il/za/pMain.aspx "

You're a day late and a shekel short.

I've thoroughly read both of those websites several years ago.

[Chai]

Re:  "I know some greats site for Massa
http://www.hagshama.org.il/en/
http://www.zionistarchives.org.il/za/pMain.aspx "

You're a day late and a shekel short.

I've thoroughly read both of those websites several years ago.

Im not surprised.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Chai:  "People like you Massa are worse than Hitler. You pretend to be for Kahansim, but all you care about is killing Arab. Thats not what Rabbi Kahane stood for , rather the only excuse one has to drive Arabs out is the Torah. It seems yours is some twisted Jewish pride.
Indeed you are very smart and great at twisting our religion in the name of being concerned and im sure you fool many people as you are a good speaker , its a shame you use your tongue as a snake.
The worst kind of person Is one that considereds a religious Jew a holier than thou  person , and you are one of them Massa , I used to think like you so I know what you are thinking.
You slander your own religion and you pat yourself on the back for being so smart , meanwhile other people look at you and think "he cant respect his own religion what does he think of us"?
Ive seen your writing, a person like you can bring many people back to Judaism "

In fact, Chai, I am attempting to bring Jews back to Judaism, and I am trying to do so by asking the very difficult questions which, when unanswered, drive Jews away from Judaism.

If all there is to Judaism is answer every serious questioner with "Read this commentary right here!" or "Here is what Rashi says about it and since he knows more than anyone you must accept it!" etc. etc .... then there is very little appeal for a modern day Jew, because you've got Miley Cyrus and Lady GaGa to compete with, and I assure you that whatever else they are offering it is most definitely NOT boring.

Jews who've been living since 1948 and are raised as secular Jews are not about to revert to life as it was exactly two thousand years ago, if for no other reason than too much history and 'too much water has passed under the bridge since then'.

A Jew today can not even observe all of the mitzvot, because some of them are specifically for Temple worship!

If your vision of Judaism is something which has all the answers for life two thousand years ago but none for today, then you're not going to attract any secular Jews to Judaism.

All my life I've heard Jews whine about the endless persecutions in Europe, in Russia, under the Ottomans, and under the Caliphate, and how their holy places and books were burned and destroyed by those insistent on their culture and faith being supreme above all.

How we Jews have complained of our cruel treatment, and rightly so.

Yet some Jews on the forum are adamant that they will show the exact disrespect and barbarous treatment to every one in the world once they get to rule Eretz Yisrael? -

Some here call for demolishing holy sites of Christians and ending the religious practices of those who live peaceably with us and help us?

I'm certain I won't be able to stop you should you succeed in gaining the power to do such things, but you can rest assured that the Jew will be viewed by the entire world as the worst hypocrite in all of history, let alone the worst vandal and villain.

It will be nothing compared to the howls of protest when the Taliban, claiming their religious supremacy above all, demolished the ancient Buddhist shrines in Afghanistan considered of great historic importance to the nation of Afghanistan.

Now ... if Moshiach appears and leads the entire world in destroying all which he refuses to tolerate, that's a different thing altogether.

But until that day arrives, any semblance of an Eretz Yisrael is going to require international trade relations and tourism in order to survive.

Are people here not aware of the problems which have arisen in the State of Israel as a result of the ultra devout communities whose men consider their only role in life to be sitting and studying and davening all day in Yeshiva?

Great thing to do, but it certainly won't maintain a viable modern nation any more than the same behaviors did so in the ghettos of Eastern Europe.

And having a large ghetto in the Middle East ready for Moshiach doesn't necessarily mean that Moshiach's arrival is going to be on the same time schedule as some are anticipating.

And if that is the case, then what?

And, while on this subject, I am also trying to force all the "great, brave Kahanists" here to realize that unless they are capable of gaining power in Eretz Yisrael and keeping it, and more importantly:  have the capabilities and experience ready to govern and rule over a population - accounting, medical care, agriculture, manufacturing, public sanitation, military, justice, media, communications, etc. ... then all the "rah rah rah" bluster about throwing Arabs out is just so much BS.

It's BS I applaud and agree with, but that alone won't free the Jewish Land for the Jewish People, let alone keep it safe and well governed.

As for calling me whatever names you choose, have at it!

I could care less.

You can't insult me.

You want to know why?

Because I'm already insulted just knowing that you're here on the forum!     

[muman613]

Shame on you for comparing the GREAT JEWISH TRADITION with Mily Cirus and Eminem... What is wrong with you!!!

[muman613]

Maybe Massuh is 'possessed by demons' and he needs a little exorcism..

[Chai]

Chai:  "People like you Massa are worse than Hitler. You pretend to be for Kahansim, but all you care about is killing Arab. Thats not what Rabbi Kahane stood for , rather the only excuse one has to drive Arabs out is the Torah. It seems yours is some twisted Jewish pride.
Indeed you are very smart and great at twisting our religion in the name of being concerned and im sure you fool many people as you are a good speaker , its a shame you use your tongue as a snake.
The worst kind of person Is one that considereds a religious Jew a holier than thou  person , and you are one of them Massa , I used to think like you so I know what you are thinking.
You slander your own religion and you pat yourself on the back for being so smart , meanwhile other people look at you and think "he cant respect his own religion what does he think of us"?
Ive seen your writing, a person like you can bring many people back to Judaism "

In fact, Chai, I am attempting to bring Jews back to Judaism, and I am trying to do so by asking the very difficult questions which, when unanswered, drive Jews away from Judaism.

If all there is to Judaism is answer every serious questioner with "Read this commentary right here!" or "Here is what Rashi says about it and since he knows more than anyone you must accept it!" etc. etc .... then there is very little appeal for a modern day Jew, because you've got Miley Cyrus and Lady GaGa to compete with, and I assure you that whatever else they are offering it is most definitely NOT boring.

Jews who've been living since 1948 and are raised as secular Jews are not about to revert to life as it was exactly two thousand years ago, if for no other reason than too much history and 'too much water has passed under the bridge since then'.

A Jew today can not even observe all of the mitzvot, because some of them are specifically for Temple worship!

If your vision of Judaism is something which has all the answers for life two thousand years ago but none for today, then you're not going to attract any secular Jews to Judaism.

All my life I've heard Jews whine about the endless persecutions in Europe, in Russia, under the Ottomans, and under the Caliphate, and how their holy places and books were burned and destroyed by those insistent on their culture and faith being supreme above all.

How we Jews have complained of our cruel treatment, and rightly so.

Yet some Jews on the forum are adamant that they will show the exact disrespect and barbarous treatment to every one in the world once they get to rule Eretz Yisrael? -

Some here call for demolishing holy sites of Christians and ending the religious practices of those who live peaceably with us and help us?

I'm certain I won't be able to stop you should you succeed in gaining the power to do such things, but you can rest assured that the Jew will be viewed by the entire world as the worst hypocrite in all of history, let alone the worst vandal and villain.

It will be nothing compared to the howls of protest when the Taliban, claiming their religious supremacy above all, demolished the ancient Buddhist shrines in Afghanistan considered of great historic importance to the nation of Afghanistan.

Now ... if Moshiach appears and leads the entire world in destroying all which he refuses to tolerate, that's a different thing altogether.

But until that day arrives, any semblance of an Eretz Yisrael is going to require international trade relations and tourism in order to survive.

Are people here not aware of the problems which have arisen in the State of Israel as a result of the ultra devout communities whose men consider their only role in life to be sitting and studying and davening all day in Yeshiva?

Great thing to do, but it certainly won't maintain a viable modern nation any more than the same behaviors did so in the ghettos of Eastern Europe.

And having a large ghetto in the Middle East ready for Moshiach doesn't necessarily mean that Moshiach's arrival is going to be on the same time schedule as some are anticipating.

And if that is the case, then what?

And, while on this subject, I am also trying to force all the "great, brave Kahanists" here to realize that unless they are capable of gaining power in Eretz Yisrael and keeping it, and more importantly:  have the capabilities and experience ready to govern and rule over a population - accounting, medical care, agriculture, manufacturing, public sanitation, military, justice, media, communications, etc. ... then all the "rah rah rah" bluster about throwing Arabs out is just so much BS.

It's BS I applaud and agree with, but that alone won't free the Jewish Land for the Jewish People, let alone keep it safe and well governed.

As for calling me whatever names you choose, have at it!

I could care less.

You can't insult me.

You want to know why?

Because I'm already insulted just knowing that you're here on the forum!     

Depite you being offended I am here , I am glad you are because you voice an opposition and give me a chance to reply to what you say or else this would be one big robot forum. I respect you that unlike other people you actually respond and I also love your humor , but I think your thinking is very dangerous.

When you say fact, Chai, "I am attempting to bring Jews back to Judaism, and I am trying to do so by asking the very difficult questions which, when unanswered, drive Jews away from Judaism.

If all there is to Judaism is answer every serious questioner with "Read this commentary right here!" or "Here is what Rashi says about it and since he knows more than anyone you must accept it!" etc. etc"

Is not what im saying. Ive said this a million times A Jew form a secular background that even keeps a simple mitzva is like Moses to me , the last thing I want to be is a holier then thou Jew that does not consider religious Jews as Yehusim. believe it or not a lot of your comments do shake my shcemas on G-d and Judaism because I do listen to what you say.

When I said dangerous before I meant comments like this;

"Some here call for demolishing holy sites of Christians and ending the religious practices of those who live peaceably with us and help us?

I'm certain I won't be able to stop you should you succeed in gaining the power to do such things, but you can rest assured that the Jew will be viewed by the entire world as the worst hypocrite in all of history, let alone the worst vandal and villain.

It will be nothing compared to the howls of protest when the Taliban, claiming their religious supremacy above all, demolished the ancient Buddhist shrines in Afghanistan considered of great historic importance to the nation of Afghanistan.

Now ... if Moshiach appears and leads the entire world in destroying all which he refuses to tolerate, that's a different thing altogether.

But until that day arrives, any semblance of an Eretz Yisrael is going to require international trade relations and tourism in order to survive.

Are people here not aware of the problems which have arisen in the State of Israel as a result of the ultra devout communities whose men consider their only role in life to be sitting and studying and davening all day in Yeshiva"

you are thinking of those that have a corrupted form of Judaism and give religion a bad name. They dont represent me!

1. Why are you focusing on something that only has to do with the end of times when it comes to Churches in Israel? Indoors people do whatever they want even in the time of King Solomon. Let me tell you something If we get to the point that you are so against The moshaish has to come or something is fishy. I for one want to see its all true. I do have my doubts oh Judaism 0.0000000001 % and im honest with it.

2. Moses did not sit and learn Torah all day , he was a warrior , a man of love  a prince and a leader as well as all the prophets after or most.

3. I may think the things you say are very wrong but Dont stop questioning I agree, But I feel you go to far with some ideas.

Religious Zionists have a different philosophy than Charadim  and I think you confuse the two.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

People like you Massa are worse than Hitler. 

Wtf ? 

[Chai]

With the Shalom acshav people at least you know what you are getting. Its deplorable to be under the guise of Khanisim when your are just a secular zionist.

If you are a secular Zionist then G-d bless you but don't pretend that you are something you are not

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

With the Shalom acshav people at least you know what you are getting. Its deplorable to be under the guise of Khanisim when your are just a secular zionist.

If you are a secular Zionist then G-d bless you but don't pretend that you are something you are not

Look, I don't know what massuh "is" but suppose for a second that you're right.   Pretending- sure, that's bad and all but.....    Hitler?

[Chai]

Well if he is a secular Zionist no , but if he parades  around calling him himself a Kahanist and spewing these ideas?? are you kidding me?? YES!! lol thats so dangerous and corrupting!

[Muck DeFuslims]

Its deplorable to be under the guise of Khanisim when your are just a secular zionist.

If you are a secular Zionist then G-d bless you but don't pretend that you are something you are not

I don't think the Rav would consider non-observant Jews that endorsed his political agenda to be 'deplorable' nor do I believe he would have rejected their support because they're 'just' secular zionists.

He might not have considered them Kahanists in the purest sense, but I don't think he would have rejected them or dismissed them as 'pretenders'.

No, I think he would have welcomed their support and hoped that one day they would more closely conform to all aspects of Kahanism.

He was wise enough and practical enough to understand that Israeli society could not and would not be transformed overnight, and that a proper addressing of Israel's most dire problems through Kahanist action would require the endorsement of it's Jewish citizenry, observant and secular alike.

But you're entitled to your own opinion and definition of what exactly constitutes being a Kahanist.

[Chai]

Its deplorable to be under the guise of Khanisim when your are just a secular zionist.

If you are a secular Zionist then G-d bless you but don't pretend that you are something you are not

I don't think the Rav would consider non-observant Jews that endorsed his political agenda to be 'deplorable' nor do I believe he would have rejected their support because they're 'just' secular zionists.

He might not have considered them Kahanists in the purest sense, but I don't think he would have rejected them or dismissed them as 'pretenders'.

No, I think he would have welcomed their support and hoped that one day they would more closely conform to all aspects of Kahanism.

He was wise enough and practical enough to understand that Israeli society could not and would not be transformed overnight, and that a proper addressing of Israel's most dire problems through Kahanist action would require the endorsement of it's Jewish citizenry, observant and secular alike.

But you're entitled to your own opinion and definition of what exactly constitutes being a Kahanist.

+1

I agree with this, but Massa is way past this. He crosses that line.

[Lisa]

OK people.  What's going on here? 

I haven't had a chance to go through this entire thread since I've been feeling sick as a dog.  (Also, it's 3:30 a.m., and I can't sleep.)

Anyway, Massuh and Chai you guys are both good members.  So please just stop with the name calling. 

I'll write more later. 

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

Why are people here engaging in personal insults once again? There is no reason and no excuse for these personal insults. Please make your points without personally attacking the individual that you disagree with.