Author Topic: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel  (Read 1837 times)

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Offline elsasdream

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Offline mord

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2010, 01:43:30 PM »
What do you guys think of this?

http://www.jewishideas.org/blog/conversion-crisis-must-be-resolved-now
I agree but some modern orthodox Jews don't convert according to Halacha.I won't mention names but i think some of you know these Rabbis names
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2010, 01:50:05 PM »
What do you guys think of this?

http://www.jewishideas.org/blog/conversion-crisis-must-be-resolved-now
I agree but some modern orthodox Jews don't convert according to Halacha.I won't mention names but i think some of you know these Rabbis names

Really mord?

Some haredi rabbis don't convert jews according to halacha!   Do I need to name names mord? 

I think your swipe at the modern orthodox is uncalled for.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2010, 08:33:55 PM »
Really mord?

Some haredi rabbis don't convert jews according to halacha!   Do I need to name names mord? 

I think your swipe at the modern orthodox is uncalled for.
I don't know any of what you guys are talking about, but is it possible Mord is referring to Deformed or "Conservative" "conversions"?

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2010, 09:08:28 PM »
was the law of return changed recently?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2010, 10:37:15 PM »
Really mord?

Some haredi rabbis don't convert jews according to halacha!   Do I need to name names mord? 

I think your swipe at the modern orthodox is uncalled for.
I don't know any of what you guys are talking about, but is it possible Mord is referring to Deformed or "Conservative" "conversions"?

Why would someone becoming a modern orthodox Jew convert with a conservative or reform rabbi?   You'd  have to ask mord what he meant, if you want clarification, but I'm fairly confident I know what he meant.   

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2010, 04:19:43 AM »
What do you guys think of this?

http://www.jewishideas.org/blog/conversion-crisis-must-be-resolved-now

I enjoy some of the writers at Jewishideas.org...  this is a good article.  I'm hesitant about giving all the power to Israeli rabbis who do not even follow Halakcha when it comes to the Land of Israel belonging to Jews.  Any rabbi who is not an adamant supporter of the settlers is not in a position to be a posek [the ideal rabbi is a Kahanist, obviously].  At the same time I am hesitant to give all the power to all individual rabbis [and the lessor known Beit Dins they form] who turn even further away from Halakcha by becoming Leftists. -- Perhaps the solution is for many individual rabbis to have the power, but for the community to revoke Semicha from rabbis who stop following Halakcha and start with neo-Tikkun Olam Leftism/anti-Judaism?

Of course a convert who ends up living as a non-Jew returns to being a non-Jew, that is commonly understood and not something unique to Haredi, I know a Conservative rabbi who endorses this view.

Also, Israel is a successful country with many social programs.  It is advantageous to be an Israeli simply for that, and one needs to be Jewish to move to Israel quickly.
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline mord

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2010, 04:57:47 AM »
What do you guys think of this?

http://www.jewishideas.org/blog/conversion-crisis-must-be-resolved-now
I agree but some modern orthodox Jews don't convert according to Halacha.I won't mention names but i think some of you know these Rabbis names

Really mord?

Some haredi rabbis don't convert jews according to halacha!   Do I need to name names mord? 

I think your swipe at the modern orthodox is uncalled for.
Schneir Jr   just look at this guy with islamic terrorists enablers 

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/3713 





more on his escapades with women                http://www.google.com/search?q=Rabbi+Marc+Schneier&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&q=rabbi+marc+schneier+affair&aq=3&aqi=g4g-o1&aql=&oq=Rabbi+Marc+Schneier+&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=6e8733203d1b4e27
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 05:15:28 AM by mord »
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2010, 12:01:23 PM »
What do you guys think of this?

http://www.jewishideas.org/blog/conversion-crisis-must-be-resolved-now
I agree but some modern orthodox Jews don't convert according to Halacha.I won't mention names but i think some of you know these Rabbis names

Really mord?

Some haredi rabbis don't convert jews according to halacha!   Do I need to name names mord? 

I think your swipe at the modern orthodox is uncalled for.
Schneir Jr   just look at this guy with islamic terrorists enablers 

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/3713 





more on his escapades with women                http://www.google.com/search?q=Rabbi+Marc+Schneier&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&q=rabbi+marc+schneier+affair&aq=3&aqi=g4g-o1&aql=&oq=Rabbi+Marc+Schneier+&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=6e8733203d1b4e27

THAT'S NOT MODERN ORTHODOX!

MO does not refer to their place of worship as "temple!"

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2010, 05:47:35 PM »
So mord, anything to say?    Or just more BS which you haven't deleted yet.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2010, 06:20:02 PM »
So mord, anything to say?    Or just more BS which you haven't deleted yet.
Mord has always been one of the more moderate, easygoing, friendly members. I don't know exactly what this tiff is about but I haven't seen him ever be deliberately divisive. I can't see him being the type to make slaps at religious Jews. Why do you think he is doing this? He is probably referring to some leftist rabbi who has very offensive political views.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2010, 07:33:23 PM »
So mord, anything to say?    Or just more BS which you haven't deleted yet.
Mord has always been one of the more moderate, easygoing, friendly members. I don't know exactly what this tiff is about but I haven't seen him ever be deliberately divisive. I can't see him being the type to make slaps at religious Jews. Why do you think he is doing this? He is probably referring to some leftist rabbi who has very offensive political views.

DBF, you need to stop reading into things more than there actually is.  I have no problem with mord.  I DO have a problem with what he wrote in this thread.   And I'm trying to address it.   

Why do you perceive a disagreement as if I'm saying something negative about mord chas veshalom?

The problem is this specific thing he said which is basically motzi shem ra against a whole lot of converts and whole lot of modern orthodox rabbis.   I really think it's egregious.   The Torah says over and over again Do not oppress the convert and that we have to love the convert.    What he put in this thread cannot possibly fit with that, IMO.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2010, 07:34:52 PM »
What specifically does "Modern Orthodox" mean just for the record? I see that term from time to time but have never really seen a good definition at JTF.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2010, 07:47:54 PM »
What specifically does "Modern Orthodox" mean just for the record? I see that term from time to time but have never really seen a good definition at JTF.

Oh, it's a branch within Orthodox Jewry.   There's a variety of people who adhere to that basic framework (ie there's leftwing MO, centrist, rightwing MO etc), but it's basically a philosophy of combining Orthodox Judaism with secular education.   It was spearheaded by Rabbi Josef Ber Soloveitchik, the Rav of YU - Yeshiva University.       So this would be a group with a different philosophy than, say, the hasidim.  Or the Haredim.

The Israeli sector which coincides most directly with Modern Orthodox would be the "dati leumi," aka national religious.   The only difference is of course that dati leumi is more focused on zionism and nationalism in Judaism while MO is a galut-based group.  But they both try to combine secular and religious study, and believe in working for a living in society, culture is celebrated etc.    I think also the dati leumi is in general more strict than the Modern Orthodox but it's just my impression.   There's a lot of variation within both groups (like all groups).

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2010, 08:13:03 PM »
They sound like a reasonable group, so why do you think Mord has a problem with them, if indeed he actually does and you aren't misunderstanding?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2010, 08:15:12 PM »
They sound like a reasonable group, so why do you think Mord has a problem with them, if indeed he actually does and you aren't misunderstanding?

It seems he's repeating a slander that was made by "rabbis" including one who turned out to be a deviant.   So this "rabbi" was 'holier than thou" and ran an organization that made baseless accusations against modern orthodox Rabbis including revoking conversions they had done and making people convert again on flimsy premises...   This rabbi turned out to be a sexual deviant who was giving conversion on condition that sexual favors were performed...    His name is not worth mentioning here he's already been disgraced and everyone knows about this case.

But that's what makes the claim so ironic. 

In any case, there are ideological differences between haredim and modern orthodox, and it seems that sometimes leaders in these groups in some cases spread propaganda against their ideological opponents.   I believe mord is repeating a baseless slander propagated by certain haredi rabbis, one of which turned out to be a deviant!

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2010, 10:12:50 PM »
Mord doesn't seem to be one of those pro-Haredi types. If anything he strikes me as the type to be against them, at least in their extreme form. Aren't the Haredim frequently anti-Zionist?

Offline IsraelForever

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2010, 10:20:30 PM »
Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, the first Satmar Rebbe, in his book Vayoel Moshe, calls the creation of the Israeli state an "act of Satan", blames Zionism for the Holocaust and the greatest form of spiritual impurity in the entire world.  Many Orthodox, including many Hasidic groups, have adopted his approach.

The Agudat Israel is an international organization (with an Israeli association) of various Haredi groups, mainly from the Lithuanian yeshiva communities and Hasidic groups such as Ger and Belz. It initially adopted a stance of disregard for the State of Israel, motivated by pragmatism. They attempted to influence the politics of the State of Israel from within, by participating in national elections and sending their representatives to the Israeli Knesset, but still did not take full part in it by not serving in its military and not celebrating any of the State's official holidays. Today the organization has shifted over time to somewhat supportive of the state, although not officially recognizing itself as a pro-Zionist party. An example of this is the revolutionary Hesder legions in the I.D.F., which is a unit that combines religious studies and national service, designed specially for Haredi Jews. The Agudat Israel party in the Knesset is represented as United Torah Judaism, a collective party of Agudat Israel and Degel HaTorah. It tries to influence the Knesset with a pro-Judaism outlook, by mainly focusing on funding for Jewish education (yeshivas), exemption from military service for religious students, and trying to strengthen Israel's Jewish identity.


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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2010, 10:47:10 PM »
בס''ד

Marc Angel is a notorious self-hating traitor who supports Barack Hussein Osama, supported the Oslo surrender agreements, supports the surrender of Jewish land, and favors changing Torah Judaism to try to appease his Jew-hating friends.

This Judenrat swine wants to weaken the Orthodox Rabbinate in Israel so that black Muslims from the Sudan and every other Third World country can come into Israel and claim to be Jewish. If Marc Angel and his Conserved, Deformed and Reconstructed friends succeed, G-d forbid, the Conservative and Reformed movements will be allowed to perpetrate a spiritual holocaust in Israel as they have already done to American Jewry and the Jews in other nations of the Galut (Exile).

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2010, 11:25:28 PM »
בס''ד

Marc Angel is a notorious self-hating traitor who supports Barack Hussein Osama, supported the Oslo surrender agreements, supports the surrender of Jewish land, and favors changing Torah Judaism to try to appease his Jew-hating friends.

This Judenrat swine wants to weaken the Orthodox Rabbinate in Israel so that black Muslims from the Sudan and every other Third World country can come into Israel and claim to be Jewish. If Marc Angel and his Conserved, Deformed and Reconstructed friends succeed, G-d forbid, the Conservative and Reformed movements will be allowed to perpetrate a spiritual holocaust in Israel as they have already done to American Jewry and the Jews in other nations of the Galut (Exile).

Yikes.  I never even read the article since we got sidetracked in this thread.   Anyone trying to help conservative and reform gain a foothold in the land of Israel are traitors to Judaism.

Offline elsasdream

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Re: Conversion Crisis Must be resolved now - R. Marc Angel
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2010, 10:44:24 AM »
בס''ד

Marc Angel is a notorious self-hating traitor who supports Barack Hussein Osama, supported the Oslo surrender agreements, supports the surrender of Jewish land, and favors changing Torah Judaism to try to appease his Jew-hating friends.

This Judenrat swine wants to weaken the Orthodox Rabbinate in Israel so that black Muslims from the Sudan and every other Third World country can come into Israel and claim to be Jewish. If Marc Angel and his Conserved, Deformed and Reconstructed friends succeed, G-d forbid, the Conservative and Reformed movements will be allowed to perpetrate a spiritual holocaust in Israel as they have already done to American Jewry and the Jews in other nations of the Galut (Exile).

Disagreeing with him and disliking him is one thing but racial slurs and hate are something else all together. As a potential convert his article hits especially close to home for me. Rabbi Angel is a Modern Orthodox Rabbi and doesnt want to allow any non Halachic conversions he is merely railing against the Rabbinate that seems to be making up rules that conflate Halacha beyond the true letter of the law.

Again you do not have to agree with his politics but resorting to racial slurs makes you look like a petulant child not a rational thinking adult.