Enough with the Catholic Bashing

[Aces High]

Let me say once again, we need to differentiate between the Roman Catholic Church, and individual Catholics.  We have wonderful Catholic members like Bullcat3, CJD, Masterwolf, ItalianZionist, and Vito, who have been with us from the very beginning.  I met CJD, Bullcat3, and Italian Zionist and Vito several times.  They're all very pro-Israel and pro JTF.  And they're moderators here except for Italian Zionist.  These are not the Mel and Hutton Gibson type of Catholics. 

So if people here don't like the RCC, fine.  But I don't want Masterwolf, CJD, Bullcat3, Italian Zionist and Vito to feel unwelcome here. 

Lisa makes the most sense.  The Chrisian members here are good people, and the Pope on the other hand.... well I'll bite my tongue.

[Sox7]

Nobody is bashing Catholics here. We are bashing a religious institution and hierarchy, the head of which is the Pope. There's a difference there. Most of 1 billion+ Catholics have done nothing unusually wrong and would be shocked at what their Popes have done and do. But their leadership has done bad things, and their leadership cannot be ignored. The Pope says that he is G-d's representative on earth and good Catholics must believe that.

Anyway, I'm done with this issue.

A word of my advice to my Jewish friends: know your friends AND your enemies. The Pope may play a game of friendship to Israel, but the Vatican recognized Israel only in 1993, 45 years after its founding. In contrast, they recognized neo-Nazi Croatia in 1992, less then a year after its declaration of independence (and while a war was still raging). That says it all.

The only protector of the Jewish people can be God. All other nations are friends on an individual but not a group basis. Some have been more decent to the Jews, others less so. Friendship can exist on an individual basis.

But Israel should not repeat the mistakes of the past, e.g. building alliances with gentile powers like Egypt or Assyria in an effort to obtain military protection. The Vatican is a Gentile world power and an incredibly powerful one at that. The small land area of Vatican City belies the fact that it wields tremendous power in the hearts of hundreds of millions of Catholics and that it is in some ways a continuation of the Roman Empire.

[Lisa]

Nobody is bashing Catholics here. We are bashing a religious institution and hierarchy, the head of which is the Pope. There's a difference there. Most of 1 billion+ Catholics have done nothing unusually wrong and would be shocked at what their Popes have done and do. But their leadership has done bad things, and their leadership cannot be ignored. The Pope says that he is G-d's representative on earth and good Catholics must believe that.

In terms of the Pope being G-d's representative on earth, doesn't that just mean he has the final say on how some religious doctrine is interpreted?  I don't know.  I'm Jewish. 

[muman613]

Let me say now that I apologize to anyone who offended. It is not my intention to offend anyone concerning their faith.

I always say that having some faith is better than having no faith at all. I do not intend to diminish anyones faith in G-d. My only intention for not forgiving the church is because I want to remember the pain we suffered for remaining true to Hashem, this is the suffering which the prophets referred to as Hashems Suffering servant.

I have absolute faith that as we move closer to the age of Messiah that the truth of Hashem will become clearer as the darkness is removed from this world. All the righteous nations of the world have a place in this world and the world to come, those who rise against the nation of Jews will be removed from the world. There is a belief that this time is near. I would like for all mankind to work together to usher in the era of peace and understanding.

I know that there are many non-Jewish righteous gentiles. I see them and listen to them every day. I have nothing against the Catholic members here and I have never heard anything negative from them.

[Sox7]

Nobody is bashing Catholics here. We are bashing a religious institution and hierarchy, the head of which is the Pope. There's a difference there. Most of 1 billion+ Catholics have done nothing unusually wrong and would be shocked at what their Popes have done and do. But their leadership has done bad things, and their leadership cannot be ignored. The Pope says that he is G-d's representative on earth and good Catholics must believe that.

In terms of the Pope being G-d's representative on earth, doesn't that just mean he has the final say on how some religious doctrine is interpreted?  I don't know.  I'm Jewish. 

Pontifex means bridge. It means that the Pope is a bridge between man and G-d. The Pope is supposed to be Christ's representative on earth, i.e. "The Vicar of Christ." Anything he pronounces while sitting in the Papal throne, which is actually NOT in St. Peter's Basilica but rather in St. John Lateran, is 100% "truth." And all faithful Catholics must believe it.



This sort of concept does not exist in other branches of Christianity. Protestants do not worship Luther (thank G-d, he was an antisemite) or Calvin or any reformer. What they say is irrelevant unless it is scripturally based. Orthodox Patriarchs cannot introduce new doctrines at will - it comes from consensus and ecumenical councils. Only Catholicism invests almost total power in the hands of one sinful human being - the Pope. Such a Pope can call up a crusade, inquisition, war, etc. whenever he likes.

This book is very interesting because it documents how Pope Pius X was pushing Austria-Hungary into initiating WWI: http://www.amazon.com/Yugoslav-Auschwitz-Vatican-Croatian-Massacre/dp/0879757523/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1290805643&sr=8-3

If my posts are horrible, feel free to delete, but I think Jews do themselves no service by deluding themselves into thinking that everything has changed in Rome.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

What are you guys morons?! eclactus the great is Ben Mizrahi.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Huh?

You are going to Kiddush yet you have no faith in the Torah? What kind of liberal hypocrite Jew are you?

Wonderful, hating your fellow Jew because he doesn't hate all Catholics.

Ben Mizrahi is a Neo-Nazi untermensch, not a Jew.

[TruthSpreader]

What are you guys morons?! eclactus the great is Ben Mizrahi.

Is he really? He played us like a fiddle.

[Shlomo]

Yes, the inquisitions were a horrible tragedy never to be forgotten, but if you are comparing our Catholic members to these horrible Jew killers, I don't know what to say. How does that help anything? Really?

Like I thought we were all here for the same purpose. To try and make the world a better place. And this is what we do when we have a death cult attempting to take over and Iran with nuclear missiles? Where are the priorities?

I thought we were trying to save people's lives and make a difference but as far as I can tell here, this is all about ego and who's right? Well, it's wrong.

And embarrassing and hurting the people who do as much as they can to help save the Jewish people is stupid. I hope you guys can talk a step back and look at the long term for our organization. Please use wisdom and common sense.

[Dr. Dan]

What are you guys morons?! eclactus the great is Ben Mizrahi.

Really?

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

What are you guys morons?! eclactus the great is Ben Mizrahi.

Really?

Compare their writing styles.

Also, Ben Mizrahi יש"ו was obsessed with parrots (at least he was in the Hebrew forum) - Eclectus (not eclactus) is a parrot species.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

As far as Catholics:

There are righteous, including those who sincerely support Jews and Israel amongst all nations, most religions, and races.  People of differing religions are going to disagree on theology and that's fine as long as it is with respect and on a different forum.  In this forum we are supposed to put those differences aside and fight for a common goal and RESPECT one another.

There are religions and nations which have persecuted and killed Jews.  Come to think of it, I don't know of a single nation or religion that hasn't persecuted the Jews sometime in history.  I mean the world watched while 6 million plus Jews perished..and till this day the vast majority haven't learned their lesson and that includes the Popes of Rome and many self-hating erev rav Jewish leaders.

What is JTF about?  It's about all decent righteous Jews and Gentiles pointing out and fighting against the evil leaders in the world Jew or Gentile, Pope, Imam, or so-called "Rabbi".  I'm not trying to be politically correct, but this is what we are.  A network of peoples working together.

So if someone here needs to bash the evil deeds of what the Church has done, he needs to be sensitive in adding that not all people of that faith hold the values of those evil deeds...Just like when Chaim does when he talks about blacks...He makes sure to mention that it isn't the genetics of the person that makes him evil, but his behavior.  I only think it's all the  more appropriate to follow Chaim's example.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Yes, the inquisitions were a horrible tragedy never to be forgotten, but if you are comparing our Catholic members to these horrible Jew killers, I don't know what to say. How does that help anything? Really?

Like I thought we were all here for the same purpose. To try and make the world a better place. And this is what we do when we have a death cult attempting to take over and Iran with nuclear missiles? Where are the priorities?

I thought we were trying to save people's lives and make a difference but as far as I can tell here, this is all about ego and who's right? Well, it's wrong.

And embarrassing and hurting the people who do as much as they can to help save the Jewish people is stupid. I hope you guys can talk a step back and look at the long term for our organization. Please use wisdom and common sense.

Shlomo, I started this by making a few threads that were critical of the pope caving in on the issue of condoms for faggots and black Africans in order to appease the AIDS lobby. I did not mean, however, to attack Catholics as individuals, or even the church itself other than on that issue.

[Dr. Dan]

What are you guys morons?! eclactus the great is Ben Mizrahi.

Really?

Compare their writing styles.

Also, Ben Mizrahi יש"ו was obsessed with parrots (at least he was in the Hebrew forum) - Eclectus (not eclactus) is a parrot species.

If it is that nazi arse, he fooled me really well. I didn't know he was obsessed with parrots.

[Boyana]

No one should attack Catholic members. But Ruby, the Pope and his Vatican clique are enemies to me. End of story. If my stance is unacceptable, I will leave JTF.

I will follow you .

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I will follow you .

Nobody said you have to love the Catholic Church.

[TruthSpreader]

What are you guys morons?! eclactus the great is Ben Mizrahi.

Really?

Compare their writing styles.

Also, Ben Mizrahi יש"ו was obsessed with parrots (at least he was in the Hebrew forum) - Eclectus (not eclactus) is a parrot species.

If it is that nazi arse, he fooled me really well. I didn't know he was obsessed with parrots.

Same here. I didn't know he had an obsession with parrots.

[JTFenthusiast2]

I'm with you Muman.  The Catholic church is no friend to the Jewish people

hey long time no see!!!  Was wondering about you and where you have been.

Thank you Dr. Dan.  This means a lot to me

[Rubystars]

Neither Chaim nor JTF has ever given a pass to the RCC on its historical or current wrongs against Jews or others. Everyone acknowledges things like the Inquisition were evil. We also have major differences of opinion with the current pope and I think this is fine to discuss.

However, JTF does have a policy against bashing of Catholics because we have Catholic members and allies who don't believe anything bad against Jews. Many individual Catholic people who have not joined yet would make wonderful JTFers, but most self-respecting people don't join a forum where they will be attacked and dragged through the mud. Most Catholics I've met have been very decent, conservative, and moral people who deserve to be respected.

I find it sad that Muman and others show absolutely no respect for Chaim's wishes on this matter. It's Chaim's message board, I don't see why you can't follow what he has said numerous times in the past. Policy that if followed would cause many more members to join has been broken time and time again and this hurts our cause.

[WestCoastJTF]

Pontifex means bridge. It means that the Pope is a bridge between man and G-d. The Pope is supposed to be Christ's representative on earth, i.e. "The Vicar of Christ." Anything he pronounces while sitting in the Papal throne, which is actually NOT in St. Peter's Basilica but rather in St. John Lateran, is 100% "truth." And all faithful Catholics must believe it.

This sort of concept does not exist in other branches of Christianity. Protestants do not worship Luther (thank G-d, he was an antisemite) or Calvin or any reformer. What they say is irrelevant unless it is scripturally based. Orthodox Patriarchs cannot introduce new doctrines at will - it comes from consensus and ecumenical councils. Only Catholicism invests almost total power in the hands of one sinful human being - the Pope. Such a Pope can call up a crusade, inquisition, war, etc. whenever he likes.

This is completely false.

The doctrine of infallibility you refer to has nothing to do with a physical chair. 

The theology behind ex cathedra is that God will not lead His church into error.  Hence, the Pope cannot err when he teaches fundamental church doctrine.  This has only been done twice in history, and in both cases they were fairly obscure points of theology (the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary).  In both cases, it followed several centuries of theological discussion, there was overwhelming consensus among bishops and the general community, etc.

It does not mean that he is personally infallible, that he can't sin, that he can't make mistakes, that he can't make errors when teaching or writing, etc.  It's a very rarely used doctrine and is typically blown completely out of proportion by anti-Catholic critics.

This doctrine has zero to do with any temporal powers of the Pope - your statement about calling up a war whenever he wishes.

BTW, you mention scripture in Christianity.  Catholics believe that scripture is simply a snapshot of tradition taken at an early point in time.  Catholics afford weight to both scripture, tradition, and theology.  So does the Orthodox church.  Protestants afford sole weight to scripture.  It is a significant difference.

The historical artifact (the chair) you refer to does actually reside in St. Peter's - I've seen it myself.  It's mounted on a wall overlooking one of the altars.  Medieval people believed it was the actual chair upon which St. Peter sat and taught, but no modern Catholic believes that to be actually true.  St. John Lateran is the Pope's parish in Rome, when he acts in his capacity as Bishop of Rome.

BTW, regarding infallibility...there is actually something that is similar in Judaism.  If there is a point of debate and there is intense study, research, and discussion by rabbinic scholars, God may actually adjust reality to make their conclusions true.  I'm paraphrasing from an Ask JTF question from some time ago.

[muman613]

Neither Chaim nor JTF has ever given a pass to the RCC on its historical or current wrongs against Jews or others. Everyone acknowledges things like the Inquisition were evil. We also have major differences of opinion with the current pope and I think this is fine to discuss.

However, JTF does have a policy against bashing of Catholics because we have Catholic members and allies who don't believe anything bad against Jews. Many individual Catholic people who have not joined yet would make wonderful JTFers, but most self-respecting people don't join a forum where they will be attacked and dragged through the mud. Most Catholics I've met have been very decent, conservative, and moral people who deserve to be respected.

I find it sad that Muman and others show absolutely no respect for Chaim's wishes on this matter. It's Chaim's message board, I don't see why you can't follow what he has said numerous times in the past. Policy that if followed would cause many more members to join has been broken time and time again and this hurts our cause.

I said nothing against any Catholic members, nor any Catholics. And I said nothing other than the fact I would never ever forgive the Church. What does that have to do with Catholic bashing? I don't think I owe the Church an apology.

[Rubystars]

Of course you don't owe the church an apology. On the other hand I think we need to be judicious in how we approach these problems. We should never give a pass to any evil behavior, but we should also keep in mind we are trying to attract people to JTF, and so we should try to make the board look as attractive as possible to all who agree with our basic beliefs.

[muman613]

Of course you don't owe the church an apology. On the other hand I think we need to be judicious in how we approach these problems. We should never give a pass to any evil behavior, but we should also keep in mind we are trying to attract people to JTF, and so we should try to make the board look as attractive as possible to all who agree with our basic beliefs.

Yes, I agree... I have said over and over that it was not my intention to offend individual members of the faith. But from my Jewish perspective there is a long way to go before I accept that Church. I have friends who are Catholics and there is no problem with them. I do not seek differences with them.

[Rubystars]

Of course you don't owe the church an apology. On the other hand I think we need to be judicious in how we approach these problems. We should never give a pass to any evil behavior, but we should also keep in mind we are trying to attract people to JTF, and so we should try to make the board look as attractive as possible to all who agree with our basic beliefs.

Yes, I agree... I have said over and over that it was not my intention to offend individual members of the faith. But from my Jewish perspective there is a long way to go before I accept that Church. I have friends who are Catholics and there is no problem with them. I do not seek differences with them.

You have to keep in mind that a lot of times it's the perception that counts, not just the intention. Right now we are going to be in the fight of our lives, not against the RCC, but against Obama, Islam, and the New World Order agenda. Nobody is asking you to accept the RCC. We just want Catholic individuals to be respected and made to feel welcomed here. This means that sometimes even though we must discuss things that happened in the past or are happening currently, we should do so with a sensitivity toward their feelings. 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Huh?

You are going to Kiddush yet you have no faith in the Torah? What kind of liberal hypocrite Jew are you?

You realize that JTF goes down for Shabbat because Jews are not allowed to use electricity on Shabbat, right? Do you drive on Shabbat? I would hope that you respect the Shabbat as a good Jew does...


This is not a game... History has a tendency to repeat itself. Remember that Essau hates Jacob and try to understand the pattern of History.

The Jewish peoples savior does not come from Zoroastoria, Hindu, or Christian hands.... It will come when Moshiach comes and leads the world in the revelation of Hashems hand in the world...

Oh,great.I am a secular so i must be a liberal.So let me tell you,i ahe homos,i ahte afro americans and sub saharans,i hate muslims and i believe democracy is wrong.Does that looking to you like liberalism? And yes,i am going to kiddush not for me but for my parrot,and i mean it seriously,it his one of his best chances to have superb food and to get outside the house for a couple of hours.I do not drive in shabbat but not our of respect but out of the fact i does not have a driving license.

You bring a parrot to kiddush?   Now that's interesting!