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Talmud permits rape of three year old girls

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edu:
Not for the benefit of Miso who is waging a demagogic attack on the Talmud, but for the benefit of innocent bystanders, who may be swayed by his comments I make the following statement.
1] The Talmud does not always deal with the question of how should one act ideally. The Talmud often deals the question, what do we do when people acted in the way that they weren't supposed to have acted, what is the status of that individual? So for example, let's say  a Jewish baby girl, had relations with a gentile {something that no rabbi would obviously permit if he had the power to decide things}. Is she now permitted later in life to marry a descendant of Aharon {Aaron} or not? One view, which Miso brought above, holds that it depends on the age of the girl, when she had relations, with the Gentile. If she let's say was 2 at the time, she has the legal-halachic status of "virgin" according to one viewpoint.
2] The Talmud, Kiddushin 81b states that it is forbidden to marry one's daughter off as a young girl until she grows up and says, in so and so, I am interested in marrying.
The commentaries, do discuss that there were some emergency situations where it was permitted to marry a young girl. For example, in some Muslim countries the Muslims had a rule, that unmarried Jewish orphans could be forcefully converted to Islam. So to save Jewish orphans from Islam they would quickly marry off these orphans to Jewish men.
Another example, in a situation where the Talmud felt there was a high danger of a young girl becoming a prostitute or subject to other abuse, they in some situations allowed an orphan for example, to get married as the "lesser of evils".

Kahane-Was-Right BT:

--- Quote from: edu on November 29, 2010, 12:26:25 PM ---
2] The Talmud, Kiddushin 81b states that it is forbidden to marry one's daughter off as a young girl until she grows up and says, in so and so, I am interested in marrying. 
--- End quote ---

Wow, I did not know that.  Thanks for your reply.

This guy Miso is an obvious loon with an axe to grind, but you actually summed it up pretty well in a simple way without getting overly technical.  Kol Hakavod.   I agree with all that you wrote here.   Regarding the emergency situations, I have a friend who is a Kordi Jew (Kurdish) and his grandmothers married at age 13 in Iran because if they did not marry them off at that young age, the Muslims would have kidnapped them.   

muman613:
Kiddushin 81b has some difficult to understand parts. Of course these can further be misunderstood, but let us try to understand them:

Here is the Gemera which edu mentions:

Kiddushin 81b:


--- Quote ---.
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A MAN MAY BE ALONE WITH HIS MOTHER. Rab Judah said in R. Assi's name: A man may be alone with his sister, and dwell with his mother and daughter [alone]. When he stated it in Samuel's presence, he said: One may not be alone with any person interdicted in the Torah, [and] even with an animal. We learnt: A MAN MAY BE ALONE WITH HIS MOTHER AND His DAUGHTER, AND HE MAY SLEEP WITH THEM IN IMMEDIATE BODILY CONTACT, — this refutes Samuel? — Samuel can answer you: And on your view, [how explain] what was taught:

‘[As regards] a sister, a mother-in-law, and all other forbidden relations of the Torah, one may be alone with them only when there are witnesses’, thus, only in the presence of witnesses, but not otherwise? But [you must say] it is [a controversy of] Tannaim. For it was taught: R. Meir said: Guard me from my daughter; R. Tarfon said: Guard me from my daughter-in-law. But a certain disciple scoffed at him. Said R. Abbahu on the authority of R. Hanina b. Gamaliel, ‘It did not take
long19 before that disciple offended through his mother-in-law.’ ‘Even with an animal.’ Abaye cleared them from the whole field.20 R. Shesheth had them put on the other side of the bridge. R. Hanan of Nehardea visited R. Kahana at Pum Nehara.21 Seeing him sitting and studying while an animal stood before him, he said to him, ‘Do you not agree, "even with
an animal"?’ ‘I was thoughtless,’ he replied.22

Raba said: A man may be alone with two yebamoth,23 two co-wives, a woman and her mother-in-law, a woman and her mother-in-law's daughter, a woman and her husband's daughter,24 and with a woman and a child who knows the meaning of intercourse but will not yield herself thereto.25

WHEN THEY GROW UP, SHE MUST SLEEP IN HER GARMENT, etc. What is the age?26 Said R. Ada son of R. ‘Azza in R. Assi's name: For a girl, nine years and a day; for a boy, twelve years and a day. Others state: for a girl, twelve years and a day; for a boy, thirteen years and a day.27 And in both cases they must be, ‘breasts fashioned and thine hair was grown.’28 Rafram b. Papa said in R. Hisda's name: This was taught only of one [a girl] who is not shy of standing nude before him [her father]; but if she is shy of standing nude before him, it is forbidden [for them to sleep in bodily contact]. What is the reason? Temptation stirs29 her.30

R. Aha b. Abba31 visited R. Hisda, his son-in-law, and took his granddaughter and sat her on his lap. Said he to him, ‘Do you not know that she is betrothed?’ ‘Then you have violated Rab's [dictum].’ For Raba Judah said in Rab's name-others state, R. Eleazar [said] — One may not betroth his daughter while she is a minor, [but must wait] until she grows up and says: ‘I want So-and-so.’ ‘But you too have transgressed Samuel's [ruling], for Samuel said: One must not handle32 a woman. ‘I agree with Samuel's other [dictum],’ he retorted. For Samuel said,


--- End quote ---

This Gemera mainly deals with the idea of Yichud {Separation}

http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/The%20Yichud%20Prohibition%20-%20Part%201.htm


--- Quote ---Introduction
It is quite challenging to abide by the Yichud restrictions.  This prohibition restricts a man and a woman from being secluded unless they are married or very close relatives.  Abiding by this Halacha is, however, an essential component in maintaining a Torah lifestyle and Kedushat Yisrael (the holiness of the Jewish People).  In this issue and the next, we will discuss the parameters of this prohibition and how we abide by this prohibition in the modern context.

The Source of the Prohibition

The Gemara (Kiddushin 80b) notes that the Torah (Devarim 13:7) hints at the prohibition for a man and a woman to be secluded unless they are married or very close relatives.  The Rishonim debate whether this is a Torah level or a rabbinic level prohibition.  For a list of these Rishonim, see the Encyclopedia Talmudit 23:634-635.  The Bait Shmuel (Even Haezer 22:1) cites this debate but does not decide which view is accepted.  The Aruch Hashulchan (E.H. 22:2), however, rules that it is a Torah level prohibition.  The Gemara (Sanhedrin 21b) that states that Yichud is a Torah level prohibition appears to clearly support this view (though one could argue that the Gemara means that there is a basis for this prohibition in the Torah).  Rav Yitzchak Elchanan Spektor (Teshuvot Ein Yitzchak 1: E.H.8:4) notes, however, that even those Rishonim who believe that this prohibition is only rabbinic in nature agree that it is a very stringent prohibition, especially since this is a restriction that predates the time of David Hamelech and has a basis in the Torah.
The original Torah prohibition includes only a man’s seclusion with a woman defined as an “Erva” in the Torah, such as a married Jewish woman.  David Hamelech added the prohibition to engage in Yichud with an unmarried Jewish woman (Sanhedrin 21).  Later, Shammai and Hillel prohibited seclusion even with a non-Jewish woman (Avoda Zara 36b).  The Acharonim debate whether an unmarried woman who is a Nidda is included in the original prohibition or is part of the decree of King David (see Teshuvot Tzitz Eliezer 6:40:8:8 for a discussion of the issue).  The Aruch Hashulchan (E.H. 22:1) rules that that type of woman is included in the original prohibition.  The Mishna Berura (75:17) seems to agree.
--- End quote ---

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