What is Holodomor? Soviet Genocide!

[muman613]

While looking through the wikileaks documents I came across a discussion between Israeli FM Lieberman and a Russian FM by the name of Lavrov.... In that discussion the Russian FM asked Lieberman that Israel not recognize a thing called 'Holodomor'. I had never heard of it before {at least referred to by this name}.

Well, of course it is relevant to me... It turns out Holodomor is Ukrainian for "death by hunger". It is the name given to the Genocide carried out by the Soviets against the Ukrainians during the second world war (Spring 1932-1933). During this man-made famine between 8-10 million died.

What caught my attention was that the 1st place that this famine hit was in my families origin, in the city of Uman.

WikiLeak which refers to Holodomor : http://cablegate.wikileaks.org/cable/2009/06/09MOSCOW1488.html

¶13. (C) Lavrov raised Russian concern with "historical  revisionism" regarding the Soviet Era and Second World War,  which, he said, was particularly acute in Eastern Europe but  was also present in Israel.  He cited Israel's official  recognition of the Holodomor, the 1930s famine that occurred  in Ukraine.  Lieberman explained that by recognizing this  tragedy, Israel had not said Russia was guilty of causing it,  nor that it was an act of genocide.

WikiPedia discussing Holodomor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Conservative estimates of the total number of deaths within Soviet Ukraine in 1933 go as low as 2.6 million.[5][not in citation given] Although some claims account for up to 10 million fatalities or more, others, including agencies in Ukraine,[6] agree that the death toll of the famine was under 8 million[citation needed]. However, the demographic deficit caused by unborn or unrecorded births allows for total net losses to be as high as 10 million.
.
.
.
The first reports of mass malnutrition and deaths from starvation emerged from two urban areas of Uman, reported in January 1933 by the Vinnytsya and Kiev  oblasts. By mid-January 1933 there were reports about mass “difficulties” with food in urban areas, which had been undersupplied through the rationing system, and deaths from starvation among people who were withdrawn from the rationing supply. This was to comply with the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine Decree December 1932. By the beginning of February 1933, according to reports from local authorities and Ukrainian GPU, the most affected area was Dnipropetrovsk Oblast, which also suffered from epidemics of typhus and malaria. Odessa and Kiev oblasts were second and third, respectively. By mid-March, most reports originated from Kiev Oblast.

[mord]

Yes it appears to be Stalins Bolshevik genocide of Ukrainians   








http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Wow, never knew about that.   So the Soviets engineered a holocaust of their own.   Interesting.

[Sox7]

This was not an ethnic genocide. Besides Ukrainians, it affected Russians, Russian-speaking Ukrainians, and also Kazakhs. This map shows the death tolls and you can see that nationalistic western Ukraine is less affected than more pro-Russian eastern Ukraine and the Donbas region.

The reason Ukraine was hardest hit was because it was the breadbasket of the Russian Empire and later the Soviet Union.

It was targeted at a socioeconomic class of people rather than an ethnic group, and there is some debate as to how intentional it was.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Kazakhstan

From 1929 to 1934, during the period when Soviet leader Joseph Stalin was trying to collectivize agriculture, Kazakhstan endured repeated famines, similar to the Holodomor[2] in Ukraine, for which it may have provided a model,[3] because peasants had slaughtered their livestock in protest against Soviet agricultural policy.[4] In that period, over a million Kazakhs[5] and 80 percent of the republic's livestock died. Thousands more Kazakhs tried to escape to China, although most starved in the attempt. Conquest says that the application of party theory to the Kazakhs, and to a lesser extent to the other nomad peoples, amounted economically to the imposition by force of an untried stereotype on a functioning social order, with disastrous results. And in human terms it meant death and suffering proportionally even greater than in the Ukraine [6]

[muman613]

http://www.day.kiev.ua/151228/

Why did Stalin exterminate the Ukrainians?
By Stanislav KULCHYTSKY, Ph.D. (History)

[Secularbeliever]

It was targeted at a socioeconomic class of people rather than an ethnic group, and there is some debate as to how intentional it was or not.<<

My understanding was that it was Stalin's punishment for the resistance to collectivization of farms.  I seemed to remember many Kossacks died in that famine.

[cjd]

http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/mdzikovs/golod.html
The Great Famine in Ukraine

Ubelievably emaciated bodies on the streets. All food taken away. People, all of the same nationality, dying horrible slow death from starvation. No one knows the exact number of dead, but the estimates range between 4 and 10 million victims. Does this sound familiar? Something like that happened during World War II to Jews. This horrible crime was called "Holocaust", and is rightly recognised and remembered as one of the worst atrocities of the war, directed at eliminating a nation.

But something like that happened earlier. In 1932-1933, Stalin was dissatisfied with Ukraine. People didn't want to give up their individual property in favour of collective farms. So a "solution" was found. All food was taken away from villages, by force. People trying to hide even small amounts of food were arrested and sent to labour camps. Trains were monitored so that peasants could not leave. 7 million dead is probably a good guess, though no one will know for sure. In Ukraine, these years are known as "Holodomor" - "slow killing by starvation". It has been called a Ukrainian Holocaust, a genocide.

This is a story as told to me by my grandmother, who was a survivor of Holodomor. "The hunger was horrible. There was nothing to eat, and it was a bad crop year, so you could not even find mushrooms or berries in the forest. Hunger is the worst at first, but after a while something happens, and it feels like you don't want to eat anymore, even if you desperately need it. We had nothing to eat. We gathered some of the things we owned and walked/hitchhiked with my elder sister to Moscow region. We exchanged it for flour and walked back". That was around 900 km distance. My grandmother was 14 at a time, and that trip saved their lives.

The story continues. "One day an old man came near our house. He was so very thin. He begged for some food. Our mother took pity on him. She told him to eat only a little, because if you eat too much too fast, your stomach will seize and you may die. But he was so hungry, he could not stop, and he got sick and died quickly."

The people who survived joined the collective farms the next year. In many areas in the eastern Ukraine the population was so decimated that many new people had to be moved in, mostly from Russia, and that region remains primarily Russian speaking to this day.

Regretfully, this crime of Stalin regime is much less known abroad. Recently, Ukraine commemorated the victims, and started a campain to get the artificial famine 1932-33 internationally recognised as a genocide.
These sites give more history and statistics about Holodomor.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Are you serious you've never heard about it? primary issue regarding Communist genodicalism. Anyway I couldn't care less about Nazi Cossacks who murdered Jews like ants before and at the time of the Nazis.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Are you serious you've never heard about it? primary issue regarding Communist genodicalism. Anyway I couldn't care less about Nazi Cossacks who murdered Jews like ants before and at the time of the Nazis.

I've really never once heard the term "holodomor"  - they don't teach it in American schools I guess...

And yeah, I knew there was murder, but enforced mass starvation through engineered famine? I don't know I guess they just didn't teach it!

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

On second thought, I'd think there's some church music there, so I won't post it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Thanks for the link.   

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Yes, many Ukrainians and Russians were Nazis, but Stalin (ys) didn't murder them in an act of righteous judgment. Stalin was a Jew-butchering Nazi himself. Of course the Nazis that were slowly starved to death in the Holodomor got everything they deserved.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Yes, many Ukrainians and Russians were Nazis, but Stalin (ys) didn't murder them in an act of righteous judgment. Stalin was a Jew-butchering Nazi himself. Of course the Nazis that were slowly starved to death in the Holodomor got everything they deserved.

All were. maybe less than 0.1% weren't.

And yes, Stalin was a well-known Nazi just like all Commies are.

[muman613]

I just thank Hashem that my family left Uman in the late 1890-1900s about 30 years before this came down...

Both sides of my family would have been wiped out in this period... My mothers side from Poland, my fathers from Ukraine...

[IsraelForever]

Of course, I knew all about this.  I certainly hope that "Babi Yar" rings a bell with most of you.  Anyway, I was in Barnes and Noble yesterday looking over books in the "New Non-Fiction" section and there's a new book out about this very thing.  Sorry, but I don't remember the name of the book.  I'll go back tomorrow or the next day and get the name.

[Zelhar]

The Holodomore certainly qualifies as a genocide by my book. It was basically a continuation of the Soviet policy of planned extermination by famine of independent farmers in Russia in the 1920s (when the Ukraine was independent country out of the Soviet reach).

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

All were. maybe less than 0.1% weren't.

The Soviet genocide targeted Russians/Ukrainians that were suspected of being anti-Communist, or of being middle-class. Soviet Jews, and those Soviet Gentiles that weren't anti-Semites, were disproportionately likely to be both. I can guarantee you that thousands of Jews were murdered in the Holodomor. Also what about minorities such as the Mennonites, who like Jews were persecuted horribly by all sides and had nothing to do with Bolshevism or pogroms?

[mord]

All were. maybe less than 0.1% weren't.

The Soviet genocide targeted Russians/Ukrainians that were suspected of being anti-Communist, or of being middle-class. Soviet Jews, and those Soviet Gentiles that weren't anti-Semites, were disproportionately likely to be both. I can guarantee you that thousands of Jews were murdered in the Holodomor. Also what about minorities such as the Mennonites, who like Jews were persecuted horribly by all sides and had nothing to do with Bolshevism or pogroms?

This is true and Stalin that Stalinist pig had plans to murder all the Jews.Ithink just before he died that bastard alcholic

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

The Soviet genocide targeted Russians/Ukrainians that were suspected of being anti-Communist, or of being middle-class. Soviet Jews, and those Soviet Gentiles that weren't anti-Semites, were disproportionately likely to be both. I can guarantee you that thousands of Jews were murdered in the Holodomor.

What are you illitereate? I agreed that Stalin was a Nazi pig - my own grand-grandfather was murdered by Stalin because he was Jewish in 1942.

During his reign in the Soviet Union, millions of Jews were murdered physically (including the ones he sent to the gas chambers during his alliance with Nazi Germany, the Jews of Poland he sent to the German gas chambers, the Jews in the German-occupied Soviet lands he let the Germans to butcher, the Jewish Holocaust survivors he sent to Gulags and thus to death, etc etc etc) and the number of the Jews he succeeded in murdering spiritually is beyond statistics, because it influences us to this day. Stalin, months before his death, planned to round up the entire Soviet Jewry using civilian Cossack pogroms and slaughter us all. Thank G-d, that untermensch CommuNazi goblin died before he suceeded.


Commie NKVD butchers greet Nazi SS murderers
during transfer of Polish Jews to Germans

But I couldn't care less about the Nazi Russians (Belorussians included), Ukranians, Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estnonians and Muslims that Nazi wiped out. Communism was only the start of their punishment for what they have done to the Jews.

Also what about minorities such as the Mennonites, who like Jews were persecuted horribly by all sides and had nothing to do with Bolshevism or pogroms?

These Nazis joined the Nazi soldiers when they conquered the Ukraine and ran away when they were smashed back by the Red Army in 1943-1944.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

No, I acknowledged what you wrote Ron about Stalin. I agree that lots of these people were Nazis, although I don't think the percentage was as high as for Arabs and the like.

[Secularbeliever]

All were. maybe less than 0.1% weren't.

The Soviet genocide targeted Russians/Ukrainians that were suspected of being anti-Communist, or of being middle-class. Soviet Jews, and those Soviet Gentiles that weren't anti-Semites, were disproportionately likely to be both. I can guarantee you that thousands of Jews were murdered in the Holodomor. Also what about minorities such as the Mennonites, who like Jews were persecuted horribly by all sides and had nothing to do with Bolshevism or pogroms?
That was known as the Doctors Plot.  They were going to blame Jewish Doctors for trying to poison Stalin and send all the Jews to Siberia.  Thank G-d Stalin died before the plan got off the ground.

This is true and Stalin that Stalinist pig had plans to murder all the Jews.Ithink just before he died that bastard alcholic

[Sox7]

Lots of poisonous stuff here. Nobody can justify Ukrainian antisemitism and pogroms by Cossacks in the days of Khmelnytsky or the more recent ones in the 19th and 20th centuries. But it's pretty sick to somehow use this ugly history to justify the deaths of millions of people (yes, children among them) who had nothing to do with pogroms. Do you really not feel any pity for these (deliberately) starved children?

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

What is this Jihad you're waging for the nation that has murdered more Jews than Islam and Rome combined?

The Ukranian nation has celeberated on Jewish blood for centuries and murdered millions. You say they're not responsible? let them prove that! because of the Holocaust they have been comitting against Jews THEY should prove their innocence and not the other way around. Same goes with Germany. Both nations prove to always remain the same Nazi monsters every generation. WHY would anybody who's not a sworn Nazi have pitty for these monsters?

The Holodomor was really nothing compared to what the Ukranian nation deserves and will get in the World to Come.

[Sox7]

What is this Jihad you're waging for the nation that has murdered more Jews than Islam and Rome combined?

The Ukranian nation has celeberated on Jewish blood for centuries and murdered millions. You say they're not responsible? let them prove that! because of the Holocaust they have been comitting against Jews THEY should prove their innocence and not the other way around. Same goes with Germany. Both nations prove to always remain the same Nazi monsters every generation. WHY would anybody who's not a sworn Nazi have pitty for these monsters?

The Holodomor was really nothing compared to what the Ukranian nation deserves and will get in the World to Come.

You have no human love in you. Do you think those toddlers were engaged in pogroms?

Btw, if you think random Ukrainian or German children deserve suffering and death because of what their ancestors may have done, then I am done with you. You're the only Nazi here. It's the Nazis who won in your case, because they managed to make a Jew like you, who supposedly upholds "Thou shalt not kill", into someone lusting for the deaths of thousands of children of his enemies.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Children do grow up to be adults eventually.   

If there was a huge disease epidemic in gaza right now (or famine to make it a closer parallel) and 80% of the population of arabs there died off, I wouldn't feel bad for them at all and I would be glad to see an evil enemy nation dying off.   Would you feel bad for them?   And of course children wouldn't be immune, nor would adults, to such an epidemic.
I think Ron is basically speaking along the same lines with Ukrainians.   Yeah, sucks for individuals, but the rotten deeds of their fathers and countrymen brought about their destruction as the only way to fix society.   I understand that line of thinking.