Faggots and Fruit of Thy Loins

[Dr. Dan]

I don't think we should be using words like f*****. I am a heterosexual, but what gay people do in private is none of my business, or anyone else's.

if gays were private about what they do, then I would agree. But way too many come out and are "proud" to be gay..making it not private anymore..so let the rebuking of homosexuality continue.

The gays that I know aren't any more "proud" to be gay anymore than the rest of us are proud to be hetero.

I am not suggesting that every homosexual is proud. Some are private about what they do..and I'm personally cool with that...especially if they can be cool wtih how I feel about it.

I'm talking about "gay" pride...not privacy.

[Dr. Dan]

With my own personal experiences, I have known a few people who were gay. They all said the same thing, that they never elected to be this way. This is just the feelings that they experience. This is something that they needed to struggle with for a very long before realizing that they were in fact gay. This is still something they need to struggle with. It's not like they just woke up one day and decided to be rebellious and said, "Hey, ya know what? I think I'll be gay!" Anyone who does something like that or decides to experiment with homosexuality isn't truly gay.

I think it's important to differentiate between homosexual feelings and behavior. There are a good number of people who by no choice of their own, have homosexual feelings. But because of the religious, cultural, and societal pressures, they choose not to follow through with homosexual behavior. On the other hand, there are heterosexuals who experiment with homosexuality. But that in itself doesn't make them homosexual.

I often wonder what the solution is for gays. If they stay true to their feelings and have romantic relations with someone from their same gender, then they are "leading a disgusting lifestyle." However, if they deny their true feelings and end up having romantic relations and marrying someone of their opposite gender, then eventually, their homosexual feelings are going to compromise the relationship where the marriage will eventually come to an end. At that point, they would be accused of "breaking up the family unit." So what's the solution for them? Just stay in the closet for their entire lives and have no romantic relations?

I'm not trying to sound like Tonicali here and would see no point in trying to ask these questions or have these debates with Chaim since he views homosexuality as being equivalent to having sex with cows. I mean, really! It's one thing to be against it for religious purposes. But equating it with cows? There's no way you can have any type of rational debate when someone thinks like this!

Daniel, I do not disagree with you on this.  I, too, have known a few homosexuals and all wonderful people otherwise.  If one decides to do act on a certain sexual behavior in the privacy of their home, it is not up to me to rebuke such behavior.  When one even acts in that way confides in me, I do have a right to rebuke it if i disagree with it, but they are entitled to my compassion as well.

But you have those, whether by choice or no choice go announcing what they like to do in the privacy of their home and are proud of it.  That, to me, is messed up! An openly proud homosexual is doing an evil thing.

So then I suppose it's better for them to be closed and ashamed about this.

Not closed, but private about it...they can confide in good friends and family.  Good friends and family shoudl state how they truely feel, but be compassionate and offer help.

IN my opinion, the right thing for a homosexual to do is find the right kind of help if he/she is capable of doing it...I understand it is near impossible to force oneself to be attracted to someone of the opposite sex, when in their mind, the same sex is more attractive. If it cannot be done, then they have the right to be private about what they do. Keep it themselves.

[ftf]

There are people that honestly believe that the walls talk to them (to take an extreme case) homosexuality is a mental illness, they should seek psychiatric help.

[Daniel]

I've jeard  of people who claim to be attracted to cows, horses, and even dogs, so what's the difference?

Bestiality is a fetish. Homosexuality is NOT a fetish! But as I stated before, anyone who equates homosexuality with cows cannot be rationally reasoned with on this issue.

Homosexual might as well be a fetish...We do not know for a fact if homosexuality is nature or nuture.  And even if someone were born with it, the wrong thing to do is say, "oh well, so be it." the Right thing to do is talk it out and figure out a way to fix it...

And just about everyone who has tried to "fix it" and go through these so called "conversion programs", trying and praying with all of their might to become hetero, just ends up failing miserably only to realize that their true feelings are there to remain and there's nothing they can do to remove them. Yes, they can choose to ignore their feelings and not follow through with the behavior. But the feelings can't be controlled or changed.

I think that the biggest case for homosexuality being natural is that there is a certain percentage in all of the animal kingdom that prefers to mate with their own gender. We as human, are animals with the same baser instincts and urges. Also, Simon Levay at the Salk institute has done autopsies on the brains of homosexuals and found that the part of the hypothalamus that controls sexual urges is either significantly smaller than those from heterosexual brains or that part is missing altogether. Now I know you won't agree with this and consider this just some liberal hogwash. But that's what I discovered with my research when I was in college.

[Daniel]

There are people that honestly believe that the walls talk to them (to take an extreme case) homosexuality is a mental illness, they should seek psychiatric help.

Again, it's an extremely faulty comparison.

A psychologist doesn't consider homosexuality a mental illness, but would consider homophobia to be a mental illness. If a homosexual would go to a licensed therapist, he/she wouldn't try to treat the homosexuality as a mental illness. But if you were to go an express how you find homosexuality repugnant and evil, the therapist would ask a lot of questions and try to peel away all of the psychological layers and to and delve into why you have an issue with this.

[Dissenter]

My father once told me that since homosexuality was a big part of the Greek culture, Judaism then needed to condemn homosexuality in order to make themselves different. But then again, he's just a leftist reconstructionist. So what does he know?

Not much, apparently.

Before their classical period, the Greeks had no public use for homosexuality. Neither Homer nor Hesiod, the first two great Greek poets, mention it with approbation. Later attempts to turn Achilles and Patroclus into lovers instead of friends were mocked by Greek historians like Xenophon.

The Jewish laws against homosexuality were instituted long before Greece's classical period. The Jews felt no urge to outdo the Greeks. In fact, it is doubtful that the early Jews had more than a vague idea of who the Greeks were.

Why homosexuality became acceptable in classical Greece is debatable, but one plausible theory holds that when the Greeks ran out of places to colonize, on the Black Sea and elsewhere, they were forced to institute a system of arranged marriages which gave young men no female outlet for their sexual urges. Girls were confined until they were married, and no man wed until he was thirty, when he had earned enough from Greece's limited economy to buy a wife. In many Third World countries, where a similar system is in place, 90% of the young men have homosexual contacts.

By the way, even the classical Greeks, the ones most "open" to homosexuality, despised what we now call passive homosexuals, men who allow themselves to be penetrated.

[ftf]

There are people that honestly believe that the walls talk to them (to take an extreme case) homosexuality is a mental illness, they should seek psychiatric help.

Again, it's an extremely faulty comparison.

A psychologist doesn't consider homosexuality a mental illness, but would consider homophobia to be a mental illness. If a homosexual would go to a licensed therapist, he/she wouldn't try to treat the homosexuality as a mental illness. But if you were to go an express how you find homosexuality repugnant and evil, the therapist would ask a lot of questions and try to peel away all of the psychological layers and to and delve into why you have an issue with this.

True, the left is taking over, satan is gaining more and more influence in this world.

[Daniel]

My father once told me that since homosexuality was a big part of the

By the way, even the classical Greeks, the ones most "open" to homosexuality, despised what we now call passive homosexuals, men who allow themselves to be penetrated.

Um, if passivity is defined as "allowing to be penetrated" then that would mean that all women are passive participants 

[Dissenter]

A psychologist doesn't consider homosexuality a mental illness, but would consider homophobia to be a mental illness.

Translation: It's not abnormal to have abnormal sex, but it is abnormal to think that abnormal sex is abnormal.

Which is why all psychologists need to be on couches themselves, and why you, Daniel, need to join them there.

[Daniel]

There are people that honestly believe that the walls talk to them (to take an extreme case) homosexuality is a mental illness, they should seek psychiatric help.

Again, it's an extremely faulty comparison.

A psychologist doesn't consider homosexuality a mental illness, but would consider homophobia to be a mental illness. If a homosexual would go to a licensed therapist, he/she wouldn't try to treat the homosexuality as a mental illness. But if you were to go an express how you find homosexuality repugnant and evil, the therapist would ask a lot of questions and try to peel away all of the psychological layers and to and delve into why you have an issue with this.

True, the left is taking over, satan is gaining more and more influence in this world.

Oh, I think you give Satan just way too much credit! I for one don't believe Satan even exists. But if by chance he does, wouldn't it be nice to think that the creators of South Park got it right and that he's having a homosexual relationship with Saddam Hussein right now?  Oh, but then again, the work or the South Park creators can also be deemed the work of Satan.

[Daniel]

A psychologist doesn't consider homosexuality a mental illness, but would consider homophobia to be a mental illness.

Translation: It's not abnormal to have abnormal sex, but it is abnormal to think that abnormal sex is abnormal.

Which is why all psychologists need to be on couches themselves, and why you, Daniel, need to join them there.

Hey, how do you know I'm not already joining them? But keep in mind, I'm not a homosexual. Nor do I support them. I just don't demonize them. I guess I need to sit on the couch and say, "Gee doc, ya know, I just can't get myself to despise homosexuality! Do ya think you could help me, doc?"

[Dissenter]

Um, if passivity is defined as "allowing to be penetrated" then that would mean that all women are passive participants 

Um, I've got a news flash for you, Daniel. Women aren't men.

Something else which your father may have confused you about.

By the way, how do your poor, disadvantaged, black and Hispanic students view homosexuals?

[Daniel]

A psychologist doesn't consider homosexuality a mental illness, but would consider homophobia to be a mental illness.

Translation: It's not abnormal to have abnormal sex, but it is abnormal to think that abnormal sex is abnormal.

You're translation assumes facts not in evidence. I could just as easily translate your translation into: It's not abnormal to have homosexual sex. But it is abnormal to think that this is abnormal sex.

[ftf]

God clearly states in the bible that homosexuality is an abomination, he does not say that you have to hate the people, and I would not say that either, but homosexual activity is evil. It is an illness.

[Dissenter]

It's not abnormal to have homosexual sex. But it is abnormal to think that this is abnormal sex.

Daniel, you're even worse off than the lexically challenged Tonicali.

At least he had the brains to smell a rat when he saw two men exploring each other's Hershey highways with their membra virile.

[Dr. Dan]

And just about everyone who has tried to "fix it" and go through these so called "conversion programs", trying and praying with all of their might to become hetero, just ends up failing miserably only to realize that their true feelings are there to remain and there's nothing they can do to remove them. Yes, they can choose to ignore their feelings and not follow through with the behavior. But the feelings can't be controlled or changed.
[/quote]

Guess what? those methods don't work. Time to find other ways!  Not just give up!  Unfortunately many psychologists are lazy and liberal today...Ignoring the problem will not help it go away.



[/quote]
I think that the biggest case for homosexuality being natural is that there is a certain percentage in all of the animal kingdom that prefers to mate with their own gender. We as human, are animals with the same baser instincts and urges. Also, Simon Levay at the Salk institute has done autopsies on the brains of homosexuals and found that the part of the hypothalamus that controls sexual urges is either significantly smaller than those from heterosexual brains or that part is missing altogether. Now I know you won't agree with this and consider this just some liberal hogwash. But that's what I discovered with my research when I was in college.
[/quote]

1. What may seem as animal homosexuality is simply animals showing dominance over the other. Not gay sex between animals. That's a farce.

2. Me may be animals..but we also have souls which allow us to control certain desires.  We have this prefrontal lobe which allows us to judge and to control behavior not acceptable to society and allow us to follow laws.  Animals do not have this prefrontal lobe so they mate whenever they want, they eat whenever they want, they sleep whenever they want, etc.

3. It remains to be seen about homosexual brains and heterosexual brains. My understanding of reserach like that was that it was the brains of an AIDS infected person that happened to be a homosexual versus the control.  Secondly, it's not the smallness or the largeness of one's brains which qualify behavior.  It is the neuron synapses and connections of the brain.  We know that as one gets older and they live a certain way through nature or nurture, the connections and quality of their synapses become a certain way. And for all we know, studyign these qualities in  humans in INCONCLUSIVE at this point.

4. While we are on the subject of the development of the brain...we know that as fetuses and maybe really young infants, neurons are growing and perhaps multiplying.  As we get older, we start losing brain cells, but at the same time as we learn, the connections of our neurons become more quality. And as we practice doing the same things over and over again, these connections become stronger and stronger.  So let's say we take a life long scientist, like you and I, as we study biology and chemistry, those synapses in our brain become stronger and stronger in relation to those subjects (in a complicated way of course). But if we chose to ignore the music side, well, at an older age, it would be hard to learn how to play a musical instrument like someone who has been playing for years as a profession. What we know about our synapses is that if you dont' use it, we lose it.  Therefore, a homosexual genetic or not who is constantly practicing it and thinking about it may form these synapses and strengthen them over time.. It doesn't mean he is born with it and that it is only natural and Gd made him that way.

Sorry, buddy...

[Dr. Dan]

There are people that honestly believe that the walls talk to them (to take an extreme case) homosexuality is a mental illness, they should seek psychiatric help.

Again, it's an extremely faulty comparison.

A psychologist doesn't consider homosexuality a mental illness, but would consider homophobia to be a mental illness. If a homosexual would go to a licensed therapist, he/she wouldn't try to treat the homosexuality as a mental illness. But if you were to go an express how you find homosexuality repugnant and evil, the therapist would ask a lot of questions and try to peel away all of the psychological layers and to and delve into why you have an issue with this.

True, the left is taking over, satan is gaining more and more influence in this world.

Oh, I think you give Satan just way too much credit! I for one don't believe Satan even exists. But if by chance he does, wouldn't it be nice to think that the creators of South Park got it right and that he's having a homosexual relationship with Saddam Hussein right now?  Oh, but then again, the work or the South Park creators can also be deemed the work of Satan.

And as Cartmen woudl say, "You will respect my authorita!"

[Daniel]

4. While we are on the subject of the development of the brain...we know that as fetuses and maybe really young infants, neurons are growing and perhaps multiplying.  As we get older, we start losing brain cells, but at the same time as we learn, the connections of our neurons become more quality. And as we practice doing the same things over and over again, these connections become stronger and stronger.  So let's say we take a life long scientist, like you and I, as we study biology and chemistry, those synapses in our brain become stronger and stronger in relation to those subjects (in a complicated way of course). But if we chose to ignore the music side, well, at an older age, it would be hard to learn how to play a musical instrument like someone who has been playing for years as a profession. What we know about our synapses is that if you dont' use it, we lose it.  Therefore, a homosexual genetic or not who is constantly practicing it and thinking about it may form these synapses and strengthen them over time.. It doesn't mean he is born with it and that it is only natural and Gd made him that way.

Sorry, buddy...


[/quote]

That's a very interesting theory and reminds me a great deal of Albert Ellis's take on homosexuality. He believes that homosexuality is a result of habitual behavior and that one can become heterosexual merely by habitually engaging in heterosexual behavior. I agree with just about about everything Albert Ellis says. But this is the one area that I disagree with Ellis or at the very least am quite sceptical about this. My suspicion is that it's the other way around with you, that you would agree with his views on homosexuality, but would disagree with him in all other areas and consider him to be the great Satan of modern psychology, right?

[Daniel]

It's not abnormal to have homosexual sex. But it is abnormal to think that this is abnormal sex.

Daniel, you're even worse off than the lexically challenged Tonicali.

At least he had the brains to smell a rat when he saw two men exploring each other's Hershey highways with their membra virile.

Exploring each other's Hershey highways with their membra virile! Now that's funny! So poetic!

[Dr. Dan]

4. While we are on the subject of the development of the brain...we know that as fetuses and maybe really young infants, neurons are growing and perhaps multiplying.  As we get older, we start losing brain cells, but at the same time as we learn, the connections of our neurons become more quality. And as we practice doing the same things over and over again, these connections become stronger and stronger.  So let's say we take a life long scientist, like you and I, as we study biology and chemistry, those synapses in our brain become stronger and stronger in relation to those subjects (in a complicated way of course). But if we chose to ignore the music side, well, at an older age, it would be hard to learn how to play a musical instrument like someone who has been playing for years as a profession. What we know about our synapses is that if you dont' use it, we lose it.  Therefore, a homosexual genetic or not who is constantly practicing it and thinking about it may form these synapses and strengthen them over time.. It doesn't mean he is born with it and that it is only natural and Gd made him that way.

Sorry, buddy...

That's a very interesting theory and reminds me a great deal of Albert Ellis's take on homosexuality. He believes that homosexuality is a result of habitual behavior and that one can become heterosexual merely by habitually engaging in heterosexual behavior. I agree with just about about everything Albert Ellis says. But this is the one area that I disagree with Ellis or at the very least am quite sceptical about this. My suspicion is that it's the other way around with you, that you would agree with his views on homosexuality, but would disagree with him in all other areas and consider him to be the great Satan of modern psychology, right?
[/quote]

Daniel, I think you are getting me mixed with another dannycookie57   I'm on the same page as you, but I'm coming from the right side...you are on the left side.  I'm not all the way to the right like the majority of people on this forum.

Don't know Ellis..don't know anything about him. I don't know if one habitually engages in homosexuality or heterosexuality will go either way.  I do believe that MANY, but not all, homosexual men are that way because they are truely attracted to masculinity.  And that many heterosexual men are attracted to femininity.  However, that is also irrelevant.  Something in one's life must have given gratificatoin to that person to perpetually be attracted to masculinity or femininity.  However, the arguement stands on whether young boys who eventually become homosexual later on in life were never interested in females and from teh beginning were interested in males.  That's why, in my mind, it is inconclusive if this is something someone is born with or if it is society/Skinnerism that has resulted in some becoming homosexual...Nature vs nurture.

However, whichever it may be, once one figures out the cause, it can be prevented. Giving up on it like what many psychologists seem to do is the wrong thing to do, in my opinion.

[Matthias Corvinus]

I'm not so sure you were censored for criticizing the Muslims as much as it was for using the term "throwing them into raw sewage." I wonder what would happen if anyone were to write something like, "throw all the Zionists into raw sewage." There's a chance this still might be censored. But I'm not sure. Perhaps it would be something to experiment with and see what happens.

I didn't say that anyone should be thrown into raw sewage. I said that the Palestinian Authority WAS throwing gay people into raw sewage, for being gay. Indybay.org apparently didn't want it known to its readership that the Palestinian Authority (which they obviously support) was treating gay people in this manner.

[Bannedfan]

Daniel, even Tonycali has learned homosexuality is an abomination. Why are you so insistent upon arguing a pro-gay viewpoint? Nobody here is saying "gas all the queers" or anything comparable. What is your beef? This is a right-wing Judeo-Christian organization. It's not like you didn't expect anti-homosexuality viewpoints coming in.

[Allen-T]

Um, if passivity is defined as "allowing to be penetrated" then that would mean that all women are passive participants 

Um, I've got a news flash for you, Daniel. Women aren't men.

Something else which your father may have confused you about.

By the way, how do your poor, disadvantaged, black and Hispanic students view homosexuals?

Probably on their PSP2's it's quite common now, I work with animals that watch porn at work on them.

[Bannedfan]

BTW, Muslims do not oppose homosexual relations (the vast majority of the men, at least, engage in it)--they only believe it is wrong to be the effeminate homosexual in these encounters.

[Dr. Dan]

Daniel, even Tonycali has learned homosexuality is an abomination. Why are you so insistent upon arguing a pro-gay viewpoint? Nobody here is saying "gas all the queers" or anything comparable. What is your beef? This is a right-wing Judeo-Christian organization. It's not like you didn't expect anti-homosexuality viewpoints coming in.

chaimfan, let him argue...