Israeli High Court: Keep Torturing Yigal Amir

[Dr. Dan]

You put words in my mouth and you called me naive. I find that to be insulting. You have drawn outlandish conclusions calling me a supporter of communism over Torah law. You put words in my mouth suggesting that I supported the torture of yigal amir. You already made up your mind and drew conclusions which are quite harsh to fellow compadre. I'm not supposed to feel insulted?!  What you had dine is the very thing shabak does. they put words in the mouths of Jewish heroes in order to entrap them.

Aw that's a shame.  You try to insult a veteran member. You're lucky I'm a nice guy and don't insult you back.

I respect those who give up their lives to save the Jewish people. I know the least I can do us work hard in my profession and donate to this cause.

Ron when you grow older I hope you understand the definition of respect. What you are doing is attempting to entrap me. This is what shabak does to the heroic Jews.

Come on Dr. Dan, where did I tell you to break the law? we were simply discussing the outcomes and morals of illegal actions. I didn't tell you to go and shoot traitors.

And I did not insult you (at least I didn't intend to). But your last sentence was as insulting as calling me a Nazi.

[Dr. Dan]

If ones thinks Judaism opposes assasination, he must oppose killing Arab Nazis. The problem is that he doesn't think so, he just believes in State Worship (Fascism) which gives the prime minister of Israel the sanctity under which he's allowed to do everything, including mass expulsion and murder of Jews, and the extermination of the Jewish people. But between Fascism and Judaism there is no connection.

When did I say believe in state worship and facism?  Putting words in my mouth like shabak does.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

You put words in my mouth and you called me naive. I find that to be insulting. You have drawn outlandish conclusions calling me a supporter of communism over Torah law. You put words in my mouth suggesting that I supported the torture of yigal amir.

You don't support the imprisonment of Yigal?

  Rabin wasn't going to Yigal Amir and kill him, that's why it's different..and because he broke the law, he had to get jail..but now he should be free.

Because this is what I understood from your own words.

  You already made up your mind and drew conclusions which are quite harsh to fellow compadre. I'm not supposed to feel insulted?!  What you had dine is the very thing shabak does. they put words in the mouths of Jewish heroes in order to entrap them.

I simply responded to what you said. You justified Amir's imprisonment because he did something illegal according to Bolshevik law. So I never responded to words I "put in your mouth", I simply replied what you yourself put in your mouth.

And Shabak doesn't portray Jewish heroes as law-abiders. They mostly convince Jews to do illegal actions, and sometimes convince Jews to submit to Bolshevik law through deception (e.g Yesha council and "Rabbis" such as Aviner during expulsions).

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

When did I say believe in state worship and facism? 

You said an enemy and traitor of the Jewish people must not be killed just because he is a head of State - in other words, the prime minister of Israel is given sanctity under which he's allowed to do everything, including mass expulsion and murder of Jews, and the extermination of the Jewish people. Only Fascism gives sanctity to the state and its institutions. Hence my post.

[muman613]

Does any Jew have the 'right' to kill anyone he wants because he thinks the other is a rodef? I really don't think so. According to my understanding of the related laws, according to the story of Pinchas, we are not permitted to kill anyone at any time.

I believe in order to kill another Jew it is necessary to have the Sanhedrin find the offended guilty and a death sentence passed. In the case of a Rodef, as in the case of Pinchas, Pinchas was completely justified according to the Halacha.

But Judaism also has a number of commandments concerning respecting the Jewish king, not speaking badly about the Jewish courts and judges, etc.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1088917/jewish/Chapter-One.htm

Halacha 7

What is implied? If the rodef was warned and continues to pursue his intended victim, even though he did not acknowledge the warning, since he continues his pursuit he should be killed.

If it is possible to save the pursued by damaging one of the limbs of the rodef, one should. Thus, if one can strike him with an arrow, a stone or a sword, and cut off his hand, break his leg, blind him or in another way prevent him from achieving his objective, one should do so.

If there is no way to be precise in one's aim and save the person being pursued without killing the rodef, one should kill him, even though he has not yet killed his victim. This is implied by Deuteronomy 25:11-12, which states: "If a man is fighting with his brother, and the wife of one... grabs the attacker by his private parts, you must cut off her hand; you may not show pity."

Halacha 8

There is no difference whether she grabs "his private parts" or any other organ that imperils his life. Similarly, the rodef may be a man or a woman. The intent of the verse is that whenever a person intends to strike a colleague with a blow that could kill him, the pursued should be saved by "cutting off the hand" of the rodef. If this cannot be done, the victim should be saved by taking the rodef's life, as the verse continues: "you may not show pity."

Halacha 9

This, indeed, is one of the negative mitzvot - not to take pity on the life of a rodef.

On this basis, our Sages ruled that when complications arise and a pregnant woman cannot give birth, it is permitted to abort the fetus in her womb, whether with a knife or with drugs. For the fetus is considered a rodef of its mother.

If the head of the fetus emerges, it should not be touched, because one life should not be sacrificed for another. Although the mother may die, this is the nature of the world.

Halacha 10

The laws of a rodef apply whether a person is pursuing a colleague with the intent of killing him, or a maiden that had been consecrated with the intent of raping her, as reflected by Deuteronomy 22:26, which establishes an equation between murder and rape, stating: "Just as when a man arises against his colleague and kills him, so too, is this matter i.e., the rape of a consecrated maiden."

The same principle is reflected by another verse within the passage, which states (Ibid.:27): "The consecrated maiden cried out, but there was no one to save her." Implied is that if there is someone who can save her, he must do so, using all means including taking the life of the pursuer.
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Halacha 13

When a person could prevent a murder or a rape by maiming the rodef's limbs, but did not take the trouble and instead saved the victim by killing the rodef, he is regarded as one who shed blood and is liable for death. Nevertheless, he should not be executed by the court.
Halacha 14

Whenever a person can save another person's life, but he fails to do so, he transgresses a negative commandment, as Leviticus 19:16 states: "Do not stand idly by while your brother's blood is at stake."

Similarly, this commandment applies when a person sees a colleague drowning at sea or being attacked by robbers or a wild animal, and he can save him himself or can hire others to save him. Similarly, it applies when he hears gentiles or mosrim conspiring to harm a colleague or planning a snare for him, and he does not inform him and notify him of the danger.46

And it applies when a person knows of a gentile or a man of force who has a complaint against a colleague, and he can appease the aggressor on behalf of his colleague, but he fails to do so. And similarly, in all analogous instances, a person who fails to act transgresses the commandment: "Do not stand idly by while your brother's blood is at stake."

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1088917/jewish/Chapter-One.htm

[muman613]

Interesting discussion of the concept of Rodef in regards to the case of Baruch Goldstein...


http://www.torah.org/learning/issues/goldstein.html

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Doctor, why do you put the Communist-state's "laws" above the Torah's laws?   

He doesn't. Did you read what he was really saying?

In any case, a big, fat F-you to the people of Israel for agreeing with this abomination.

[Dr. Dan]

Yigal Amir has been prisoned.  That's a punishment set for by Israel.  What Amir did was a good thing.  But because he broke the law and got caught by killing a head of state, he had to be put in jail.  He is a hero because he sacrificed his life for the Israelis.  But he got caught, he has to do time in jail and now I think he should be free.  I think the world and all Israelis and Jews should thank him for what he did, but they didn't.  In an ideal world this is what I would have wanted.  He get a hero's welcome and never be put in jail.  But since that's not the case, he's in jail.  He has been punished by Israel.  And I think his punishment is enough and he should be free.  If Yigal Amir ran away and came to my house I would hide him and not turn him in.  If I knew anything of his whereabouts, I would deny I knew anything.  Outright lie.

So no, he did not deserve punishment, but since he did get punished already, it's time to let him go.

You put words in my mouth and you called me naive. I find that to be insulting. You have drawn outlandish conclusions calling me a supporter of communism over Torah law. You put words in my mouth suggesting that I supported the torture of yigal amir.

You don't support the imprisonment of Yigal?

  Rabin wasn't going to Yigal Amir and kill him, that's why it's different..and because he broke the law, he had to get jail..but now he should be free.

Because this is what I understood from your own words.

  You already made up your mind and drew conclusions which are quite harsh to fellow compadre. I'm not supposed to feel insulted?!  What you had dine is the very thing shabak does. they put words in the mouths of Jewish heroes in order to entrap them.

I simply responded to what you said. You justified Amir's imprisonment because he did something illegal according to Bolshevik law. So I never responded to words I "put in your mouth", I simply replied what you yourself put in your mouth.

And Shabak doesn't portray Jewish heroes as law-abiders. They mostly convince Jews to do illegal actions, and sometimes convince Jews to submit to Bolshevik law through deception (e.g Yesha council and "Rabbis" such as Aviner during expulsions).

[Dr. Dan]

When did I say believe in state worship and facism? 

You said an enemy and traitor of the Jewish people must not be killed just because he is a head of State - in other words, the prime minister of Israel is given sanctity under which he's allowed to do everything, including mass expulsion and murder of Jews, and the extermination of the Jewish people. Only Fascism gives sanctity to the state and its institutions. Hence my post.

Here's the issue...what if it was the other way around? Let's you, Ron, was the righteous prime minister and an evil Jew felt you were evil and assassinated you?  But justified it that it was due to his sick version of Torah justice?  Let's say he thought that your desire to provoke wars was going to kill Jews and he killed you for that reason?  Is that ok?  Of course not.  The point is that there are certain laws to keep peace in society...The Torah teaches that as well.

I would never encourage physical murder of a Jew.  I would be happy if an evil Jew was killed.  I would protect that righteous person who saved lives to kill an enemy even if it was illegal for him to pursue the law "in his own hands".

The law of the land in Israel is not to murder the head of state.  It's there for a reason. If Kahane was prime minister, I would hope leftist would follow the same law and pursue protests instead of his assassination.  So Yigal Amir broke what you call a Facist rule. Fine. He went to jail.  Now he should be free because what he did wasn't bad.  He took the law into his own hands. I support that.  But he got caught. He had to go to jail. Now he should be free. 

I think it is very reasonable to have laws that prohibit assassinating an elected Israeli Jewish prime minister.  But if there is an evil one that puts Jewish lives in danger, I wouldn't sanction his physical murder personally.  I might pray he dies of cancer or a bus hit him and let Gd do the justice.  But if someone else does it, I'll be happy too. And that person finds me and wants me to hide him, I will.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Read between the lines folks. Dr. Dan is not condemning the hero Yigal Amir in any way.

[Dr. Dan]

Read between the lines folks. Dr. Dan is not condemning the hero Yigal Amir in any way.

DBF, thanks.  I know I'm more soft spoken on this issue because to be honest, I'm not really sure if Yigal Amir did the right thing, entrapt or not.  That's not to say that I'm unhappy that Rabin is no longer alive.

If JTF weren't a law abiding organization, I would have a tough time being here.  The reason why I have been so comfortable being a HUGE supporter of this movement for the past 4 years is because we are law abiding and want to take control in legal ways.

Now if things were to get out of hand in Israel or the US that warrented JDL tactics, I wouldn't participate in those actions, but would still applaud them.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

When did I say believe in state worship and facism? 

You said an enemy and traitor of the Jewish people must not be killed just because he is a head of State - in other words, the prime minister of Israel is given sanctity under which he's allowed to do everything, including mass expulsion and murder of Jews, and the extermination of the Jewish people. Only Fascism gives sanctity to the state and its institutions. Hence my post.

It may be that what concerns Dr. Dan (and others who probably are reading and agree with him) is that this logic would cause almost every current Israeli politician to be assassinated in the streets (and/or for attempts to be made on them), if enough people adopted this logic - because of their current agenda and policies.   So this logic is naturally considered dangerous.   

Perhaps many don't realize that aside from assigning extra security detail, and enacting certain draconian measures to keep the populace at bay, there would be drastic political repercussions in reaction to an atmosphere such as that.   The type of reactions (read:  concessions, major policy changes) which were induced by certain well known arab militia groups we are all (too) familiar with.

So, these concerns (about the danger of the above logic) while rational and decent concerns from the perspective of any civilized western denizen interested in maintaining the status quo of law and order and comfortable living, may in fact be a hindrance to the goals of the Jewish people in the extreme case and emergency situation that Am Yisrael finds itself in.

I think that is food for thought for all people participating in this thread.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

When did I say believe in state worship and facism? 

You said an enemy and traitor of the Jewish people must not be killed just because he is a head of State - in other words, the prime minister of Israel is given sanctity under which he's allowed to do everything, including mass expulsion and murder of Jews, and the extermination of the Jewish people. Only Fascism gives sanctity to the state and its institutions. Hence my post.

Here's the issue...what if it was the other way around? Let's [say] you, Ron, was the righteous prime minister and an evil Jew felt you were evil and assassinated you?  But justified it that it was due to his sick version of Torah justice?  Let's say he thought that your desire to provoke wars was going to kill Jews and he killed you for that reason?  Is that ok?  Of course not. 

 

Dr. Dan that's a great point - I'm glad you raised that.  That was something that occurred to me as well over the course of this thread but I didn't give it enough consideration.   How do we deal with something like that if someone or someones are breeding a sense of lawlessness into society and the tables get turned on the righteous people?

[Dr. Dan]

When did I say believe in state worship and facism? 

You said an enemy and traitor of the Jewish people must not be killed just because he is a head of State - in other words, the prime minister of Israel is given sanctity under which he's allowed to do everything, including mass expulsion and murder of Jews, and the extermination of the Jewish people. Only Fascism gives sanctity to the state and its institutions. Hence my post.

It may be that what concerns Dr. Dan (and others who probably are reading and agree with him) is that this logic would cause almost every current Israeli politician to be assassinated in the streets (and/or for attempts to be made on them), if enough people adopted this logic - because of their current agenda and policies.   So this logic is naturally considered dangerous.   

Perhaps many don't realize that aside from assigning extra security detail, and enacting certain draconian measures to keep the populace at bay, there would be drastic political repercussions in reaction to an atmosphere such as that.   The type of reactions (read:  concessions, major policy changes) which were induced by certain well known arab militia groups we are all (too) familiar with.

So, these concerns (about the danger of the above logic) while rational and decent concerns from the perspective of any civilized western denizen interested in maintaining the status quo of law and order and comfortable living, may in fact be a hindrance to the goals of the Jewish people in the extreme case and emergency situation that Am Yisrael finds itself in.

I think that is food for thought for all people participating in this thread.

I should have majored in English. Thanks for the elaborate explanation.

[Dr. Dan]

My wife told me of a Jewish observance called tzom gadalia or something like that. He was a Jewish king assassinated by another Jew for trying to "work out a deal with the Romans to 'help the Jews'" 

Perhaps the Torah law states that we should not take allies from another nation and trust amalek. This one Jew thought this king was putting other Jews in danger and assassinated him. The net result was the that the rabbis made an observance out. If this is inaccurate please correct me.

Some Jews likened Rabin's assassination to tzom gadalia. Rabin was no gadalia however I can understand the frustration of most reasonable Israelis who meant well and observe the assassination as a bad thing for Israeli history. Can someone drunk this claim?  I put it on the next askjtf.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

When did I say believe in state worship and facism? 

You said an enemy and traitor of the Jewish people must not be killed just because he is a head of State - in other words, the prime minister of Israel is given sanctity under which he's allowed to do everything, including mass expulsion and murder of Jews, and the extermination of the Jewish people. Only Fascism gives sanctity to the state and its institutions. Hence my post.

It may be that what concerns Dr. Dan (and others who probably are reading and agree with him) is that this logic would cause almost every current Israeli politician to be assassinated in the streets (and/or for attempts to be made on them), if enough people adopted this logic - because of their current agenda and policies.   So this logic is naturally considered dangerous.   

Perhaps many don't realize that aside from assigning extra security detail, and enacting certain draconian measures to keep the populace at bay, there would be drastic political repercussions in reaction to an atmosphere such as that.   The type of reactions (read:  concessions, major policy changes) which were induced by certain well known arab militia groups we are all (too) familiar with.

So, these concerns (about the danger of the above logic) while rational and decent concerns from the perspective of any civilized western denizen interested in maintaining the status quo of law and order and comfortable living, may in fact be a hindrance to the goals of the Jewish people in the extreme case and emergency situation that Am Yisrael finds itself in.

I think that is food for thought for all people participating in this thread.

I should have majored in English. Thanks for the elaborate explanation.

I'm trying to be discreet with my language

We are law-abiding afterall

[Secularbeliever]

One nationalist noted that after Rabin's assassination the anti Oslo demonstrations lost their secular participants.  Amir caused pro nationalist Jews to be marginalized.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Does any Jew have the 'right' to kill anyone he wants because he thinks the other is a rodef? I really don't think so. According to my understanding of the related laws, according to the story of Pinchas, we are not permitted to kill anyone at any time.

I believe in order to kill another Jew it is necessary to have the Sanhedrin find the offended guilty and a death sentence passed. In the case of a Rodef, as in the case of Pinchas, Pinchas was completely justified according to the Halacha.

Muman don't twist the Torah. Pinchas killed Zimri after NOBODY listened to him. He killed "he who he wanted to kill" because he "thought Zimri was a Rodef". He literally "took the law to his hands" and was eternally blessed by Hashem for that. And you think we should wait until the Sanhedrin in order to kill Rodfim then don't be a hypocrite and don't support the killing of Arabs who are Rodfim.

There is an obligation to kill a Rodef (Masechet Shabbat, Daf 15;  Rabeinu Asher's responsa Klal 17 for example) and Moser (Rambam, Halchot Chovel U'Mazzik Chapter 8 Halacha 10) even when the court no longer metes out capital punishment (in other words, he who comes to slay you, slay him first is relevant even when the court no longer metes out capital punishment) and Rabin was both.

[Secularbeliever]

As a moral matter it is not right for Jews to settle their differences by killing each other.  If we do enough of that we will not have many people left (we are few enough in numbers now) and we will devolve into Arabs and other third worlders who settle everything with murder.  If it is correct to murder Rabin then what about the Supreme Court, the media leftists etc.  And then what about the hundreds of thousands of Israeli eltists who support these institutions and then what about the millions who say they oppose them but when push comes to shove don't.

As a practical matter, the Rabin murder was a negative for the nationalists.  It marginalized the pro settler and nationalist Jews.  Non kippah wearing protesters disappeared from anti-Oslo protests.  Oslo has been set in stone as a part of Israel's policy.  I don't care how many self serving quotes are offered up by Clinton or any of his staff, the only reason that the savages are not currently in legal control (they are practically speaking in physical control in many aspects) of Judea, Samaria, the Golan and Jerusalem is because they have been too stupid to take it when offered.  Whether it is Rabin, Peres, Nethanyahu, Barak, Sharon or Nethanyahu the policy has largely remained the same.  Israel will give these areas away to any Arab who will take them.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

As a moral matter it is not right for Jews to settle their differences by killing each other.  If we do enough of that we will not have many people left (we are few enough in numbers now) and we will devolve into Arabs and other third worlders who settle everything with murder.  If it is correct to murder Rabin then what about the Supreme Court, the media leftists etc. 

  Not to mention the pedophiles and rapists.  There would be a lot of blood flowing.    But a lot of people saved too.