Author Topic: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements  (Read 1381 times)

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Offline Spiraling Leopard

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Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« on: December 19, 2010, 04:41:20 PM »
http://www.danielpipes.org/9182/wikileaks-arab-leaders

Pouring Cold Water on WikiLeaks

Of all the WikiLeaks revelations, the most captivating may be learning that several Arab leaders have urged the U.S. government to attack Iranian nuclear facilities. Most notoriously, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia called on Washington to "cut off the head of the snake." According to nearly universal consensus, these statements unmask the real policies of Saudi and other politicians.

But is that necessarily so? There are two reasons for doubts.

First, as Lee Smith astutely notes, the Arabs could merely be telling Americans what they think the latter want to hear: "We know what the Arabs tell diplomats and journalists about Iran," he writes, "but we don't know what they really think about their Persian neighbor." Their appeals could be part of a process of diplomacy, which involves mirroring one's allies' fears and desires as one's own. Thus, when Saudis claim Iranians are their mortal enemies, Americans tend uncritically to accept this commonality of interests; Smith maintains, however, that "the words the Saudis utter to American diplomats are not intended to provide us with a transparent window into royal thinking but to manipulate us into serving the interests of the House of Saud." How do we know they are telling the truth just because we like what they are saying?

Gamal Abdel Nasser, Egyptian strongman, excelled at deception.
Second, how do we judge the discrepancy between what Arab leaders tell Western interlocutors sotto voce and what they roar to their masses? Looking at patterns from the 1930s onwards, I noted in a 1993 survey that whispers matter less than shouts: "Public pronouncements count more than private communications. Neither provides an infallible guide, for politicians lie in both public and private, but the former predict actions better than the latter."

The Arab-Israeli conflict, for example, would have ended long ago if one believes confidences told to Westerners. Take the example of Gamal Abdel Nasser, Egypt's strongman from 1952 to 1970 and arguably the politician who most made Israel into the abiding obsession of Middle Eastern politics.

According to Miles Copeland, a CIA operative who liaised with Abdel Nasser, the latter considered the Palestine issue "unimportant." In public, however, Abdel Nasser relentlessly forwarded an anti-Zionist agenda, riding it to become the most powerful Arab leader of his era. His confidences to Copeland, in other words, proved completely misleading.

The same pattern applied to specifics. He spoke in private to Western diplomats about a readiness to negotiate with Israel; but addressing the world, he rejected the very existence of the Jewish state as well as any compromise with it. After the 1967 war, for example, Abdel Nasser secretly signaled to Americans a willingness to sign a non-belligerency accord with Israel "with all its consequences" while publicly rejecting negotiations and insisting that "That which was taken by force will be regained by force." The public statement, as usual, defined his actual policies.

Not only did Abdel Nasser's shouts offer a far more accurate guide to his actions than his whispers, but he tacitly admitted as much, telling John F. Kennedy that "some Arab politicians were making harsh statements concerning Palestine publicly and then contacting the American government to alleviate their harshness by saying that their statements were meant for local Arab consumption." Thus did Abdel Nasser precisely describe his own behavior.

As did Yasir Arafat, the Palestinian leader.
Contrarily, when speaking privately not to Westerners but to their own, Arab leaders do sometimes reveal the truth. Memorably, the Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat publicly signed the 1993 Oslo Accords recognizing Israel but he expressed his real intentions in private when he appealed to Muslims in a South African mosque "to come and to fight and to start the jihad to liberate Jerusalem."

It's intuitive to privilege the confidential over the overt and the private over the public. However, Middle East politics repeatedly shows that one does better reading press releases and listening to speeches than relying on diplomatic cables. Confidential views may be more heartfelt but, as Dalia Dassa Kaye of the Rand Corporation notes, "what Arab leaders say to U.S. officials and what they might do may not always track." The masses hear policies; high-ranking Westerners hear seduction.

This rule of thumb explains why distant observers often see what nearby diplomats and journalists miss. It also raises doubts about the utility of the WikiLeaks data dump. In the end, it may distract us more than clarify what we know about Arab policies.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2010, 05:00:17 PM »
Of course Daniel pipes wants exclusive "credibility" for telling us about arab diplomats and what the world really needs, since he wants to feel free to advocate more gaza expulsion type events and be cheered on by his loyal fans.   He wants to discredit wikileaks or interpreting information form ACTUAL diplomatic cables so that he can still have authoritative "opinions" about diplomatic matters no matter how discredited he already has become.

Offline Secularbeliever

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Re: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2010, 06:00:06 PM »
Of course Daniel pipes wants exclusive "credibility" for telling us about arab diplomats and what the world really needs, since he wants to feel free to advocate more gaza expulsion type events and be cheered on by his loyal fans.   He wants to discredit wikileaks or interpreting information form ACTUAL diplomatic cables so that he can still have authoritative "opinions" about diplomatic matters no matter how discredited he already has become.

As best I can remember Pipes opposed the expulsion from Gush Katif.
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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2010, 07:31:03 PM »
Of course Daniel pipes wants exclusive "credibility" for telling us about arab diplomats and what the world really needs, since he wants to feel free to advocate more gaza expulsion type events and be cheered on by his loyal fans.   He wants to discredit wikileaks or interpreting information form ACTUAL diplomatic cables so that he can still have authoritative "opinions" about diplomatic matters no matter how discredited he already has become.

As best I can remember Pipes opposed the expulsion from Gush Katif.

Did he?

Maybe my memory is failing me.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 07:46:20 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Secularbeliever

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Re: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2010, 09:26:33 PM »
http://www.danielpipes.org/2498/ariel-sharons-folly

New York Sun
April 5, 2005

With the passage last week of a budget bill in Israel, the government of Ariel Sharon appears to be ready to remove more than 8,000 Israelis living in Gaza with force, if necessary.

In addition to the legal dubiousness of this step and its historically unprecedented nature (challenge to the reader: name another democracy that has forcibly removed thousands its own citizens from their lawful homes), the planned withdrawal of all Israeli installations from Gaza amounts to an act of monumental political folly.

It also comes as an astounding surprise. After the Oslo round of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations (1993-2001) ended in disaster, many Israelis looked back on Oslo's faulty assumptions, their own naïveté, and resolved not to repeat that bitter experience. Israelis awoke from the delusion that giving the Palestinians land, money, and arms in return for airy-fairy and fraudulent promises would lessen Palestinian hostility. They realized that, to the contrary, this imbalance enhanced Palestinian rejection of the very existence of the Jewish state.

By early 2001, a divided Israeli electorate had largely re-unified. When Mr. Sharon became prime minister in February 2001, a wiser leadership had apparently taken over in Jerusalem, one that recognized the need for Israel to return to toughness and deterrence.

These optimistic expectations were indeed fulfilled for nearly three years, 2001-03. Mr. Sharon engaged in a quite masterful double diplomacy in which he simultaneously showed a cheery face (toward the American government and his leftist coalition partners) and a tough one (toward his Likud constituents and the Palestinians). The purposefulness and underlying consistency of his premiership from the start impressed many observers, including this one; I assessed Sharon's record to be "a virtuoso performance of quietly tough actions mixed with voluble concessions."

Mr. Sharon decisively won re-election in January 2003 over Amram Mitzna, a Labor opponent who advocated an Oslo-style unilateral retreat from Gaza. Mr. Sharon unambiguously condemned this idea back then: "A unilateral withdrawal is not a recipe for peace. It is a recipe for war." After winning the election, his talks in February 2003 about forming a coalition government with Mr. Mitzna failed because Mr. Sharon so heavily emphasized the "strategic importance" of Israelis living in Gaza.

By December 2003, however, Mr. Sharon himself endorsed Mr. Mitzna's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. While he did so in a spirit very different from the prior Oslo diplomacy, his decision has the same two main characteristics.

First, because the decision to retreat from Gaza took place in the context of heightened violence against Israelis, it vindicates those Palestinian voices arguing for terrorism. The Gaza retreat is, in plain words, a military defeat. It follows on the ignominious Israeli abandonment of its positions and its allies in Lebanon in May 2000, a move which much eroded Arab respect for Israeli strength, with dire consequences. The Gaza withdrawal will almost certainly increase Palestinian reliance on terrorism.

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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2010, 09:40:14 PM »
Hm.   I always viewed pipes as someone who was a "road map" proponent, maybe I was wrong.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2010, 09:49:13 PM »
He's better than most Jewish "experts" on the ME but he's no Kahanist. He usually supports the "settlers" (oh how I hate that word), but has also gone out of his way to explain that not all Islam is bad, that there are moderate Muslims, etc.

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2010, 09:54:18 PM »
He usually supports the "settlers" (oh how I hate that word),

What's wrong with a Mitzvah to settle the Land? just because the Nazi Left says light is darkness doesn't mean it really is darkness.

And Daniel Pipes is an Arab pipe-sucking traitor who supports the Land of Israel becoming a death camp managed by the "poor moderate Arabs".

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2010, 09:55:59 PM »
He usually supports the "settlers" (oh how I hate that word),

What's wrong with a Mitzvah to settle the Land? just because the Nazi Left says light is darkness doesn't mean it really is darkness.

The word "Settlers" as used in English implies a non-permanence of residence.

Offline Secularbeliever

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Re: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2010, 09:56:17 PM »
He's better than most Jewish "experts" on the ME but he's no Kahanist. He usually supports the "settlers" (oh how I hate that word), but has also gone out of his way to explain that not all Islam is bad, that there are moderate Muslims, etc.

Exactly.  He is probably in a class similar to Caroline Glick, Steven Plaut, David Hornik etc.  These people oppose concessions to the Arabs on largely practical grounds.  I think the ideological and practical arguments converge more than most of us would think.
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Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2010, 10:17:06 PM »
He usually supports the "settlers" (oh how I hate that word),

What's wrong with a Mitzvah to settle the Land? just because the Nazi Left says light is darkness doesn't mean it really is darkness.

The word "Settlers" as used in English implies a non-permanence of residence.

It does the same in Hebrew today, just like "blotting out the Amalekites" implies Nazi-like behavior, "Conquest" implies Colonialism, etc. But these are still Holy Torah words/phrases which it and our Holy Sources use (let's take Ba'Midbar 33:54 as an example). Why curse them? Since when the Nazi Left has a monopoly over the meanings of  words and especially Holy Words? If G-d consideres is to be Light, who are we to dare to call it Darkness?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2010, 10:39:43 PM »
He usually supports the "settlers" (oh how I hate that word),

What's wrong with a Mitzvah to settle the Land? just because the Nazi Left says light is darkness doesn't mean it really is darkness.

The word "Settlers" as used in English implies a non-permanence of residence.

It does the same in Hebrew today, just like "blotting out the Amalekites" implies Nazi-like behavior, "Conquest" implies Colonialism, etc. But these are still Holy Torah words/phrases which it and our Holy Sources use (let's take Ba'Midbar 33:54 as an example). Why curse them? Since when the Nazi Left has a monopoly over the meanings of  words and especially Holy Words? If G-d consideres is to be Light, who are we to dare to call it Darkness?

I really don't understand your analogies.    

I am NOT saying that "settling" a land is a negative implication because society views it that Jews shouldn't go and settle.  If I had said that your response might have made sense.


I'm saying that the TERM in English - Settler - implies a temporary sojourner rather than a permanent presence and that is why people call them settlers.  
It's not saying "Settlers" Ha , Ha, they are morally wrong to go and settle,
it's saying  "Settlers" a word which shows they don't belong there because their presence is temporary only until the point where we kick them out.    Big difference.  

They are settling the land of Israel, but once they are already there, they are there to stay!   They're simply residents now.  Not people the goyim can transfer and throw around.



Btw, I don't know what you mean when you say why curse them?  Why curse whom?

Offline Secularbeliever

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Re: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2010, 10:43:11 PM »
whatever the specific derivation of the word, when people use the term settler it is not a compliment.
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Re: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2010, 10:45:27 PM »
whatever the specific derivation of the word, when people use the term settler it is not a compliment.

Isn't it better than Squatter?

 :'(
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Secularbeliever

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Re: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2010, 11:04:38 PM »
whatever the specific derivation of the word, when people use the term settler it is not a compliment.

Isn't it better than Squatter?

 :'(

Not the way it is used by the State Department, Israeli left and Obama.  Nobody uses the term squatters.
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Re: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2010, 11:05:38 PM »
He usually supports the "settlers" (oh how I hate that word),

What's wrong with a Mitzvah to settle the Land? just because the Nazi Left says light is darkness doesn't mean it really is darkness.

And Daniel Pipes is an Arab pipe-sucking traitor who supports the Land of Israel becoming a death camp managed by the "poor moderate Arabs".

And where has he said this?
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Re: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2010, 01:34:12 AM »
If he talks about "moderate Arabs" and says that Israel can negotiate with them, then he is spreading poisonous lies. And, if he says "settler" (which is obviously a very negative term, at least in the modern English usage), he is conceding the groundwork of the whole issue to the enemy, just as he is when he refers to Arabs as "Palestinians".

Offline Secularbeliever

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Re: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2010, 11:13:44 AM »
If he talks about "moderate Arabs" and says that Israel can negotiate with them, then he is spreading poisonous lies. And, if he says "settler" (which is obviously a very negative term, at least in the modern English usage), he is conceding the groundwork of the whole issue to the enemy, just as he is when he refers to Arabs as "Palestinians".

I don't have an issue with disagreeing with people but I think it is counterproductive to curse people who are better and more in agreement with us than 95%.of Jews in Israel or the USA.  I would also want more than an "if" as the basis for calling someone vile names.
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Re: Daniel Pipes take on the wikileaked saudi statements
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2010, 11:42:18 AM »
If he talks about "moderate Arabs" and says that Israel can negotiate with them, then he is spreading poisonous lies. And, if he says "settler" (which is obviously a very negative term, at least in the modern English usage), he is conceding the groundwork of the whole issue to the enemy, just as he is when he refers to Arabs as "Palestinians".

I don't have an issue with disagreeing with people but I think it is counterproductive to curse people who are better and more in agreement with us than 95%.of Jews in Israel or the USA.  I would also want more than an "if" as the basis for calling someone vile names.

He is a big donor to Geert Wilders legal defense. He deserves credit for that. And let's facet it, Kahanists are terrible at raising money.