Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea

Why did G-d Grant the Magicians of Pharoah a small amount of power?

<< < (2/4) > >>

muman613:

This discussion talks about this question a little..

http://www.vbm-torah.org/pesach/pes68-mtmachshava.htm

I.          Be-Yad Chazaka - The Pivotal Role of the Plague of "Dever"

The Hagadda cites a pasuk from Shemot perek 9 which quotes the Egyptian sorcerers as attributing the plague to the "hand of G-d."  This phraseology affirms the association between the plague of dever and the phrase "yad chazaka" (strong hand).  What is less obvious is the spotlighting of dever as opposed to the other nine makkot.  Why does the pasuk in Ki Tavo specifically underscore the plague of dever? Interestingly, the midrash in Shemot Rabba parasha 10 cites R. Yehoshua ben Levi, who asserts that every plague was accompanied by dever, further affirming an influential role for the plague of dever.  What makes this plague "stand out" from the others and why is this special motif captured by the phrase "yad Hashem?"

In truth, attacking the animal herds of Egypt was not merely an assault on a chief economic asset.  Since the Egyptians worshipped their animals, it was an offensive against the Egyptian deity as part of Hashem's continuing demonstration of the futility of Egyptian theology.  Hashem had promised Moshe (Shemot 12) "I will indict the Egyptian gods" and ultimately Egyptian animals would be slaughtered as pascal offerings on the night of deliverance.  In this respect, dever is an early forerunner of the korban pesach and deserves special notice.

Beyond the direct comment upon the specific Egyptian form of animal worship, dever may provide an overall statement about monotheism and an unknowable G-d.  In addition to discrediting animal worship, Ha-Kadosh Barukh Hu wanted to debunk paganism in general and display monotheism as a truer alternative.  A tenet of monotheism is the belief in an invisible G-d which cannot be seen and whose essence is in no way physical or human-like.  The plague of dever was the only plague which was completely "invisible."  During each plague, the catalyst was visible and palpable (frogs, blood, wild animals, boils, etc.), but the microbe that infected and ravaged the Egyptian herds was not discernable to the human eye.  In this respect, dever was a perfect lesson to the Egyptians regarding an invisible world.  The plague is referred to as the "hand of G-d" because it educated the Egyptians that G-d has no discernable elements; his hand is UNSEEN and UNKNOWABLE.  Associating dever with the "hand of G-d" illustrates a unique message encapsulated in the heart of this plague.

In truth, this message was already initiated during the plague of kinim/lice.  Although the lice were visible, they were too small to truly discern naturally; they heralded the evolution of a completely invisible plague of death.  Already at this early stage, the Egyptian magicians struggled to reproduce this event and referred to it as "the finger of G-d."  As Rashi reminds us, their magic was ineffective regarding items smaller than barley seeds.  Their magical pagan rites were anchored in a visible and material world; as the plagues diminished in size, their magic failed.  Ultimately, the hand of G-d as experienced through dever reminded the Egyptians that G-d has no hand, nor even any fingers.

If kinim presaged dever, the plague of Bechorot succeeded it.  Each produced absolute death and not mere suffering, and in each instance the cause of death was invisible.    The final pasuk in the Torah alludes to "u-le-chol ha-yad ha-chazakah u-le-chol ha-morah ha-gadol…" Chazal (in the Sifrei) interpret this second iteration of "yad chazaka" as a reference to makat bechorot.  Both dever and bechorot deal death to the Egyptians in an unseen fashion and each reinforces the notion of a non-physical G-d.  The same phrase - yad chazaka – which encapsulates dever in parashat Ki Tavo describes bechorot in the final pasuk of the Torah.  

Kahane-Was-Right BT:

--- Quote from: muman613 on December 28, 2010, 04:43:45 PM ---
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on December 28, 2010, 04:24:30 PM ---Good question, edu.

I should think about this more (and I don't remember the rashi there), but I think it would have something to do with showing everyone (Jews and Egyptians included - although a much more difficult belief for the Egyptians to swallow) that all powers, even the magic that Egyptian magicians were performing, ultimately comes from Hashem.  He created the world with a certain natural mechanism through which nature can be manipulated ("magic" or whatever other means - today it's genetic engineering and such), and He is also able to manipulate it Himself outside of nature.   The subsequent plagues which magicians cannot replicate drive that point home to show that ultimately all the plagues had the same Source.    This is a powerful teaching about how to relate to nature to always see it as manifestation of Hashem's will.

The Egyptian society was steeped in idol worship and magical craft was considered some kind of expert discipline.   It would be most difficult for them to accept that those magicians have no special powers, and this point is illustrated to them with the plagues.

It is still difficult to understand precisely what the 'magic' was, just how effective it was (or what kind of actual "power" it had), given the Rambam's assertion that there is no such thing as magic!   I'm not completely sure how he understood these verses.  

--- End quote ---

This is what I said when I posted above that the sorcerers were able to duplicate the 1st two plagues so that the Egyptians could see that it was the finger of Hashem...



--- End quote ---

Oh.  Well good, then.

I wasn't sure what you had meant by that.   But I gave my opinion which maybe is in line with yours anyway.  But with the way you phrase it, one could ask a kashiya:   Ie, if G-d simply wanted to prove that the plagues were the finger of Hashem, so they'd be sure it wasn't magic (which, by the way, is different from what I said above!), then why have the first two easily replicable by egyptian magicians?  Why not just have all 10 as plagues which the egyptian magicians try and fail to replicate?  That would drive the point home even stronger that these plagues are not magic but are from Hashem, if all 10 are something that no one can produce or reproduce.  
But if you agree with what I said above, I think that is the reason to have the first two replicable by magic - to show that magic and any power of manipulation on earth is from the same Source as the natural disaster and great destruction which no one can possibly design or create except G-d.


Btw, I want to elaborate on something from before which may be a chiddush of sorts -   The first two plagues are specifically about reproduction of G-d's wonders. (The magicians reproduced the plague phenomena).   This is a message for us today, modern man, when we see that scientists can take the DNA structure that G-d designed and they "found" and then use it as a template to create new organisms by tweaking it and adjusting to the target genes (also adopting G-d's template for existing genes) they desire to produce proteins out of in the organism.  We know from the story of the plagues in Egypt that this is only one level of creation and one level of manipulation of nature which has been granted to us.  But there is a higher level of creation and manipulation of the world/nature at which G-d operates, which man CANNOT reach, and this is represented to us in the next 8 plagues.   So let no one tell you that creation of new organisms defeats the idea of G-d's existence.  (similarly don't believe that they created organisms "from scratch" because that hasn't happened either - they used an existing template).

muman613:
Yes, I understand what you are saying. You are asking why did Hashem not allow them to reproduce any of the plagues and they would have also understood that it was the finger of Hashem.

That is a good question. But I think it may work like this {this is my own understanding}...

I have learned that Hashem is the reason the Hebrews descended into bondage in Egypt. It was part and parcel with the promise Hashem made to Abraham at the covenant of the parts, when he said that your descendants would be oppressed strangers in a strange land. Hashem decreed this for the Children of Israel as a sort of crucible in which to strengthen the people.

But the Egyptians mistook this decree to mean that they should overly oppress the Jews, and throwing babies into the Nile and bathing in their blood was a little too much for Hashem to bear. The deal was that the Jews were supposed to be strangers in a strange land, and oppressed with labor, but the genocide was over the line.

Hashem wanted to bring the plagues on Egypt. Even before Moses went down to Egypt to tell Pharoah 'Let my people go!' Hashem told Moses that he would harden Pharaohs heart. This was essential in order for Hashem to bring the plagues on Egypt. If they relented after the 1st couple of plagues it would have been written off as a coincidence and the Jews would be oppressed even more. Hashem allowed the 1st two plagues to be reproduced by the sorcerers in order for them to ignore them. Meanwhile the people of Egypt and of the world would also count these 2 plagues against Egypt. Today we have people who want to explain all ten plagues as just flukes of nature.

I must say I don't agree with you concerning doing embryonic experiments. Are you trying to imply that scientists today are like sorcerers? The sorcerers believed in false dieties and refuted the existence of a Ribbono Shel Olam. Their magic was in the name of their rams and goats which they worshiped. I would hope that scientists are not compared to these heretics and wicked men.


--- Quote ---Parasha Shemot Chapter 4

21. The Lord said to Moses, "When you go to return to Egypt, see all the signs that I have placed in your hand and perform them before Pharaoh, but I will strengthen his heart, and he will not send out the people.
--- End quote ---

muman613:
Another aspect of what I understand {which is only a little} is this:

Eventually the whole showdown became a contest between Moses and Pharoah. Eventually Pharoah was just being stubborn even though he knew he was wrong. In Pharaohs mind Pharaoh was the master and G-d of Egypt. The plagues came down on Egypt because the people believed that Pharaoh was a G-d.... But some Egyptians eventually did come to know Hashem, those who kept their animals inside on the days of pestilence and the days of hail.

/* once again please change P*a*r*a*s*h*a to p*a*r*s*h*a to get around that pesky filter */

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/fleisher/chamisha/

--- Quote ---Rashi on verse 10 clearly states that the plague of pestilence only struck those animals that were in the fields. The Ramban and Rabbeinu Bachyei say that pestilence affected the cattle even if they were brought into the Egyptians' homes. The reason the verse says "in the field" is because cattle are commonly found in the field, "dibeir hakosuv b'ho'veh." They bring a proof for this. It says (9:6) that "all" the livestock died. Rashi in 9:10 and 14:7 says that only the cattle left in the field were affected. The Ohr Hachaim Hakodosh says that "all" in verse 6 refers to all that were left in the field.

A strong indication to the opinion of the Ramban and Rabbeinu Bachyei is that the Torah goes to some length and detail by the plague of hail to instruct the Egyptians to bring their cattle to their homes to be spared the devastation of the hail, and here, by Devver, just mentions "which are in the field." If we are to learn one from the other, it should be elaborated upon EARLIER, and have the latter learn from the earlier.

The Rivo, Paanei'ach Rozo, and the Sifsei Chachomim answer according to Rashi that it is common to have pestilence kill herds of cattle. The slightest indication that their cattle could be saved is sufficient to bring the Egyptians to compliance. Not so by the plague of hail. It is very unusual to have such a severe hail storm that would kill all the cattle. This necessitates elaboration. Another indication that the Egyptians were more eager to comply by pestilence is that Rashi 9:10 says that those who feared the word of Hashem took their cattle out of the fields. These were the animals that were left over, of which many were killed during the plague of hail. If only the animals of those who feared the word of Hashem survived, these same people would place their cattle out of harm's way again during the hail. Yet we find that cattle were left in the fields (9:21,25). This shows that more people were persuaded to seek shelter for their cattle during the pestilence than during the hail.

Another possible answer to the elaboration of shelter regarding hail, and only a mention of "that are in the field" regarding pestilence might be derived from an insight brought in the K'hilas Yitzchok. He says that the only shelter afforded during the hail storm was the HOMES of the Egyptians. The verse (9:19) says clearly that the people and animals had to be brought into their HOMES. This is retribution in kind, "midoh k'neged midoh," for the Egyptians forcing the bnei Yisroel to remain away from home at night and to stay with the cattle in barns. Hashem wanted to bring about this punishment during the plague of hail. During the plague of pestilence the verse says "cattle which are in the FIELD" will be smitten. This does not indicate that they need to be brought into the HOMES to be saved. Even if brought into BARNS, the animals are no longer "in the field" and are safe. Therefore it is sufficient to just mention "in the field" by pestilence. To be out of harm's way from hail required specifically bringing the people and the animals into the Egyptians HOMES, hence the elaboration.
--- End quote ---

http://www.ascentofsafed.com/cgi-bin/ascent.cgi?Name=j1462Plagues

muman613:
It is late here but I just came across the latest Temple Talk from Israel National News with Rabbi Chaim Richman {of the Temple Institute}.

It has to do with the ideas which I just brought up..

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/2763

Audio: Get Ready for the 10 Plagues: "You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet "
12/28/2010 9:11:00 PM - A7 Radio's "Temple Talk" with Temple Talk



Some people couldn't see or feel G-d's presence even if He came out and hit them over the head. Pharaoh, the absolute monarch of Egypt, is one of these people. In fact, it will take ten heavy hits to knock some recognition into Pharaoh's head and his heart. Moses has been chosen to be the messenger, although he feels highly under-qualified. G-d, however, is determined that Moses will be the man who delivers Israel.

Rabbi Richman and Yitzchak Reuven express their sadness at the passing of Vendyl Jones, a passionate and compassionate spiritual giant of our generation. May his memory be for a blessing.

This week from the TEMPLE INSTITUTE:
.
.
.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page