Warning To Adam613

[Zvulun Ben Moshe]

I have always said to my female friends that almost all men, consciously or subconsciously, recognize one rule: "Try to seduce every woman. If you don't succeed, marry her!"

If it's bad for women to engage in pre-marital sex, then why is it acceptable for men to attempt to seduce every woman?

That is a good question.

The question is great, bullcat.

Seduction is a terrible thing, but women who have honor will never be seduced, and those women will receive ultimate respect even by the worst players.

[Zvulun Ben Moshe]

Yacov,

Is there any way you could reduce the size of your signature?

[Zvulun Ben Moshe]

Thanks, man.

[nessuno]

Young woman are getting the message that this liberated behavior is acceptable - it comes at them from all sides.
Men should send out the signals that they don't find it attractive. Trying to seduce them may not be that message.
I'm surprised that so many of you feel you can't find a nice girl - I didn't think a nice girl was so attractive to men these days.  
I have a young cousin who was also turned off by sexually liberated girls he was meeting in NYC.
He said he thought they were watching too many SEX IN THE CITY episodes.
 

[Daniel]

It is the fault of the feminists who wanted "sexual liberation". But the feminists don't really care about women's rights because they don't care if women are exploited for sex.

I think this is a mischaracterization of feminism.

[Zvulun Ben Moshe]

Young woman are getting the message that this liberated behavior is acceptable - it comes at them from all sides.
Men should send out the signals that they don't find it attractive. Trying to seduce them may not be that message.
I'm surprised that so many of you feel you can't find a nice girl - I didn't think a nice girl was so attractive to men these days.  
I have a young cousin who was also turned off by sexually liberated girls he was meeting in NYC.
He said he thought they were watching too many SEX IN THE CITY episodes.
 

Bullcat, seduction is evil. Attempts to seduce are not. I think, if a man is attracted to a girl, then any signs of amazement such as looking at her or starting a conversation may be considered attempts of seduction. However, a man does only 50% of the job. The other 50% is handled by the girl, and her actions will define the end result.

[nessuno]

Young woman are getting the message that this liberated behavior is acceptable - it comes at them from all sides.
Men should send out the signals that they don't find it attractive. Trying to seduce them may not be that message.
I'm surprised that so many of you feel you can't find a nice girl - I didn't think a nice girl was so attractive to men these days.  
I have a young cousin who was also turned off by sexually liberated girls he was meeting in NYC.
He said he thought they were watching too many SEX IN THE CITY episodes.
 

Bullcat, seduction is evil. Attempts to seduce are not. I think, if a man is attracted to a girl, then any signs of amazement such as looking at her or starting a conversation may be considered attempts of seduction. However, a man does only 50% of the job. The other 50% is handled by the girl, and her actions will define the end result.

I'm not really in disagreement with you.
A woman is responsible for her own actions.
Although I don't get the seduction is evil and attempts to seduce are not part.
Anyway - goodnight to you - Zvulun ben Moshe.

[Zvulun Ben Moshe]

Buenos noches, bullcat!

[Shlomo]

I think our spoiled culture has a lot to do with the relationship problems. Men and women are both guilty of trophy syndrome to cover up for the fact that they don't love themselves. A person cannot love him or herself if they do not respect themselves (through doing what's right and controlling one's self - not others). Love and respect go hand in hand.

Too many people are trying to cover up the fact that they don't like who they are by using another person as idolatry. I'm not saying that a wife or husband can't be deeply loved... I'm saying that we have to put G-d first. Adam and Eve taught us this lesson.

Given any choice, we can do 1 of 3 things. 1) What feels good now, 2) what looks good, or 3) what's right. The more this culture tries use "moral relativism", the worse they feel about who they are. A person who does what's right, loves and respects himself. A person who, to often, tries to convert "love from someone else" into "self love" (using ego) is not in control because other people's opinions of them control them.

You can ONLY love yourself by doing what's right. It's the only way. G-d's perfect design made it this way.

Also, everyone thinks we are supposed to be the same. We are FAR from being the same... and I think that's beautiful.

[cjd]

You make very good points here jeffguy.

[Zvulun Ben Moshe]

I think our spoiled culture has a lot to do with the relationship problems. Men and women are both guilty of trophy syndrome to cover up for the fact that they don't love themselves. A person cannot love him or herself if they do not respect themselves (through doing what's right and controlling one's self - not others). Love and respect go hand in hand.

Too many people are trying to cover up the fact that they don't like who they are by using another person as idolatry. I'm not saying that a wife or husband can't be deeply loved... I'm saying that we have to put G-d first. Adam and Eve taught us this lesson.

Given any choice, we can do 1 of 3 things. 1) What feels good now, 2) what looks good, or 3) what's right. The more this culture tries use "moral relativism", the worse they feel about who they are. A person who does what's right, loves and respects himself. A person who, to often, tries to convert "love from someone else" into "self love" (using ego) is not in control because other people's opinions of them control them.

You can ONLY love yourself by doing what's right. It's the only way. G-d's perfect design made it this way.

Also, everyone thinks we are supposed to be the same. We are FAR from being the same... and I think that's beautiful.

Jeffguy, the problem is that a lot of people by refusing the original law (Torah), try to find their own justifications about what is right and end up doing 1) What feels good now, and 2) what looks good.

[Lisa]

Lisa, acceptable by whom?

By that I mean telling men it's ok to seduce as many women as possible.  As the saying goes, "it takes two to tango."

[Zvulun Ben Moshe]

Lisa, acceptable by whom?

By that I mean telling men it's ok to seduce as many women as possible.  As the saying goes, "it takes two to tango."

Don't forget who leads in tango.

[jsullivan]

Scriabin, after reading your explanation, I agree with every word. In fact, I think almost everyone here now is agreeing with everything you are saying.

You thought we all disagree with you, and we all thought that we disagree with you, but now that you have explained yourself, we all find ourselves agreeing with you. Everything you are saying makes perfect sense.

This should prove to all of us that we should have the patience to fully explain things to our fellow JTFers. Getting angry and fighting with our fellow JTFers is foolish. We are part of JTF because we all basically want a more moral and decent world. We have different ways of expressing this aspiration, and we certainly have differences of opinion on some issues from time to time, but our general goal is making this a moral and decent world.

Scriabin, I apologize for misunderstanding you.

I suggest that you make this point to Chaim on the Ask JTF program. I'm sure he'll agree with you. Chaim is a very moral and religious person who very much wants to see women AND men become moral again.

In any event, I'm going to ask Chaim to read this thread.

[Joe Schmo]

G-d bless you Jimmy.

[Joe Schmo]

This should prove to all of us that we should have the patience to fully explain things to our fellow JTFers. Getting angry and fighting with our fellow JTFers is foolish. We are part of JTF because we all basically want a more moral and decent world. We have different ways of expressing this aspiration, and we certainly have differences of opinion on some issues from time to time, but our general goal is making this a moral and decent world.

Well said! 

[Joe Schmo]

In this respect, I agree with you 100%. Excellent point. Did you also notice that women used to never go out of the house without covering their hair? And so did the men. People were very respectible then. I definetly appreciate your rational approach on this, and these are the type of conversations and debates I enjoy and learn from. Thanks.

Thank you, TANIA.

[Zvulun Ben Moshe]

It is equally degenerate for men to have pre-marital sex as it is for women.

I will tell you more: it is degenerate to condemn abortion without first condemning pre-marital sex as the most probable cause of it.

[Bannedfan]

Jeffguy has probably the best post of this thread...

[Lisa]

I will tell you more: it is degenerate to condemn abortion without first condemning pre-marital sex as the most probable cause of it.

Good point.  Also, have you all noticed how it's always the purveyors of moral filth like Bob Guccione (publisher of Penthouse), Hugh Heffner (Playboy) and Bill Clinton who are pro abortion?  These are people who either whore around, or encourage other men to do so.  Naturally, they are for abortion, as they want to remove the consequences of their degenerate behavior.  They want women to be ready, willing and always available. 

I'll give you an analogy.  Notice that when you go bowling, you do one round, and you make strike down a few pins while you're at it.  Right after you're done, the knocked down pins are automatically cleared out of the way, and new pins are set up in perfect order.  That's how I see abortion -- clearing the pins (in this case, the baby) so that the player can start over again.

[nessuno]

I will tell you more: it is degenerate to condemn abortion without first condemning pre-marital sex as the most probable cause of it.

Good point.  Also, have you all noticed how it's always the purveyors of moral filth like Bob Guccione (publisher of Penthouse), Hugh Heffner (Playboy) and Bill Clinton who are pro abortion?  These are people who either whore around, or encourage other men to do so.  Naturally, they are for abortion, as they want to remove the consequences of their degenerate behavior.  They want women to be ready, willing and always available. 

I'll give you an analogy.  Notice that when you go bowling, you do one round, and you make strike down a few pins while you're at it.  Right after you're done, the knocked down pins are automatically cleared out of the way, and new pins are set up in perfect order.  That's how I see abortion -- clearing the pins (in this case, the baby) so that the player can start over again.

What is horrifying is that some people actually think of abortion that way.  Isn't it sad.
I don't see how you can ever get over having an abortion - for any reason -  even if to save the life of the mother.  It can never just be wiped away.
The people who can do this are really are degenerate.

[Joe Schmo]

What is horrifying is that some people actually think of abortion that way.  Isn't it sad.
I don't see how you can ever get over having an abortion - for any reason -  even if to save the life of the mother.  It can never just be wiped away.
The people who can do this are really are degenerate.

Abortion is the central platform of Feminism.  "Its my body and I have the right to do what I want with it."

Mexican and Arab women don't have abortions. 

White Woman have been killing their children for more than thirty years now.

[Zvulun Ben Moshe]

What is horrifying is that some people actually think of abortion that way.  Isn't it sad.
I don't see how you can ever get over having an abortion - for any reason -  even if to save the life of the mother.  It can never just be wiped away.
The people who can do this are really are degenerate.

Abortion is the central platform of Feminism.  "Its my body and I have the right to do what I want with it."

Mexican and Arab women don't have abortions. 

White Woman have been killing their children for more than thirty years now.

I think you should start with the fact that Arab women don't have pre-marital sex.