Genetically selecting 'gay' embryos?

[muman613]

And let me clear up one fallacy which you promoted KWRBT... I am not against technology in the slightest. I work as a software engineer and I have a degree as a 'Computer Scientist'. My work doesn't overstep any ethical or moral boundaries so I don't have many challenges in this area. As I stated before I consider piracy to be theft and on that I have not changed my opinion. The fact that a majority of kids today do not consider this theft is a very bad sign to me that morals are only influenced by the public opinion and not based on immutable ideals as morality in the Torah is.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

So you confirm what I said, you place your faith in science instead of in man....  

 

When did that happen?   Quote me, please!


Do you just distort the conversation as the way to make your point?

I said that science is incapable of determining moral right or wrong. If they are unable to prove that Hashem exists then they are unable to say what is morally right or wrong. All they can say is whether or not it is technically possible to do something. For instance concerning pirating music or software.... When a person pirates movies or music they are ethically doing the wrong thing but the technology does not care one way or the other.  

What did I say different?

Science in the hands of man is a very, very dangerous tool. You think that science is in the best interest of mankind, but this has been shown over and over again to be foolish.

Like I said, how do you propose that we live?   Should we ban information because people use it for evil?

Should we also ban the newspaper because sometimes people use it to speak lashon hara.  While we are at it, let's ban language itself since Hashem forbade us from speaking Lashon Hara.

BUT HOWCOME GOD DIDN'T BAN US FROM SPEAKING?




ARE YOU GETTING MY POINT YET?   I SURE HOPE SO.

And I am entirely sure you are naive when it comes to the nature of mankind...

This insult adds nothing to the discussion, but I am entirely sure you put words in my mouth and it really ticks me off.   And I'm not the only person you do this to, Muman.

[muman613]

When did that happen?   Quote me, please!


Do you just distort the conversation as the way to make your point?



What did I say different?

Like I said, how do you propose that we live?   Should we ban information because people use it for evil?

Should we also ban the newspaper because sometimes people use it to speak lashon hara.  While we are at it, let's ban language itself since Hashem forbade us from speaking Lashon Hara.

BUT HOWCOME G-d DIDN'T BAN US FROM SPEAKING?




ARE YOU GETTING MY POINT YET?   I SURE HOPE SO.



This insult adds nothing to the discussion, but I am entirely sure you put words in my mouth and it really ticks me off.   And I'm not the only person you do this to, Muman.

Just as the insult at the end of your previous post added nothing to the discussion, but I figured if you could inject such an insult so could I...

And I believe you have no idea what you are saying.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

Answer this question: Where does 'Science' get ethics from?  

You obviously didn't read my post.



Let me quote myself for you:  I said:  

 "Science doesn't answer questions concerning ethics.  Yeah, I've said that here before.   Science is not a discipline to determine ethics.  It's used to determine facts about the natural world."  

I think I've said this so many times on the forum to explain to you why science, the discipline, cannot be blamed or negated for the rants and philosophical speculations of atheists and individual scientists, since those things exist outside of the scientific method.   But I think that I've said it so many times that you are now mimicking me by saying that science does not determine ethics, and yet you are twisting those words to make them say something else, which really is unclear at this point.   What point are you making about ethics?       And do you acknowledge that you are adopting my own language now?

Ethics can only come from God.  Even the philosopher Kant acknowledged that point, and he was not a believer.
So what is it that you are saying and why do you bring science into the discussion of ethics?   It is YOU who are conflating the two!

I suspect scientific ethics are based on whatever the prevailing popular opinion is at the time....

 What are "scientific ethics?"  I've never heard of this.  Is this an Oprah show?

As as result these are not moral codes but just public opinion which changes with the wind...

I know I'm making a mistake by indulging you in this tangent, but scientists are bound by more than just the wind.  They are bound by law.  Like most other professions.

Science is also greatly influenced by where the money comes from.

So is every profession, especially yours.

Look at the Pharmacuetical companies
and their unholy alliance with the medical profession.

And look at the legislation and punishments against this.   If you would work in a company like this, you would see that companies have rules to prevent this.

Of course not all science is done in industry.  There is also academic work.   Oh, but the industry is evil for making money off their work, constructing their own business models and entrepreneurial endeavors to take in profits for their achievements, but the academics are evil for accepting handouts (aka grants) to do theirs.    So really all scientists should jump off a bridge instead according to you?  But why are computer scientists exempt?


And look at all those computer programmers wreaking havoc on innocent people by designing viruses and stealing identities with their hacking and programming.   LET'S BURN ALL THE COMPUTERS.  BURN BABY BURN

[muman613]

I do not suggest that people give up on technology. But each person needs to consider it for what it is. People today seem to expect that they can live longer, live happier, and do what they want when they want to using the modern technologies including computers, audio & video, cellphones and networks, and medicine. It is incorrect, from a Jewish perspective, to place any trust in these things. When our sages talked about idolatry they were talking about people who placed their trust in forces or objects which were created by man. Today we see a modern form of Idolatry...

People cannot live without their cellphone. They are overloaded with information from the internet which often causes interpersonal problems at home {a big problem between husband and wife often involves the computer}. People are taking medicines which they should not be taking only because they 'feel better' when they use these chemicals.

I do not trust most people who call themselves scientists because I realize that they intend on making money through researching their particular field. Of course there is incentive to exagerate claims, as has happened with the quest for nuclear fusion {see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion }. I believe that science can be a tool which will assist the human race to advance. But I also have reservations about the current bad state of moral decay in the world today...

[muman613]

The issue of morality and ethics entered this discussion because I consider it immoral to genetically engineer gay children. Science is unable to decide if it is immoral because there is no moral code which science is bound to. Regarding laws in order to keep scientists ethical, I think it is naive again. People do illegal things all the time, the law does not prevent them from doing the deed. As I mentioned concerning pirating software or dvd movies...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Just as the insult at the end of your previous post added nothing to the discussion, but I figured if you could inject such an insult so could I...

Now you are just being dishonest.  

You excuse your own insult because I supposedly insulted you first.   Wow kids, here's a lesson on how to be disingenuous.  

Surely, Muman, you know what my comment was in response to - YOUR OWN INSULT OF ME!   So don't play dumb and act like you added it because you're some kind of victim but knew it was useless.  

Your insults add nothing to the discussion - that is the salient fact.    That you feel you've done something wrong  and need to "excuse" the behavior by blaming me is not my concern.     The fact remains however, that I can't be blamed for your own words.

Muman:  "I still believe you KWRBT are a bit naive to believe that the scientists will be constrained by any moral code."

My response:  "And I believe you have no idea what you are saying."

Muman "And I am entirely sure you are naive when it comes to the nature of mankind..."


Oops!  No excuses Muman, no one wants to hear them.   Please stay focused on the topic instead of trying to assert who is righteous or not.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The issue of morality and ethics entered this discussion because I consider it immoral to genetically engineer gay children. Science is unable to decide if it is immoral because there is no moral code which science is bound to. Regarding laws in order to keep scientists ethical, I think it is naive again. People do illegal things all the time, the law does not prevent them from doing the deed. As I mentioned concerning pirating software or dvd movies...

Right, and for this reason, since evil people will get guns illegally, even though there are laws on how to acquire them in a legal fashion, we must ban guns and we must condemn guns as illegal because there will always be some lawbreaker who not only breaks the law to get a gun, but uses the gun in an unlawful manner.   Guns are therefore evil.   Same warped logic.


And everything is evil because evil people will misuse the things and so everything must be banned and condemned.   That's quite a world to live in.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I do not trust most people who call themselves scientists because I realize that they intend on making money through researching their particular field. 

And I do not trust people who call themselves computer scientists because I realize that they intend on making money through researching their particular field.

And I do not trust people who call themselves policemen because I realize that they intend on making money through researching their particular field.

And I do not trust people who call themselves historians because I realize that they intend on making money through researching their particular field.

And I do not trust people who call themselves RABBIS because I realize that they intend on making money through researching their particular field.


Ooops, forgot about that one, didn't we?   Rabbis also make money, muman.     And when did making money become a crime which erodes a person's reputation?

[muman613]

Now you are just being dishonest.  

You excuse your own insult because I supposedly insulted you first.   Wow kids, here's a lesson on how to be disingenuous.  

Surely, Muman, you know what my comment was in response to - YOUR OWN INSULT OF ME!   So don't play dumb and act like you added it because you're some kind of victim but knew it was useless.  

Your insults add nothing to the discussion - that is the salient fact.    That you feel you've done something wrong  and need to "excuse" the behavior by blaming me is not my concern.     The fact remains however, that I can't be blamed for your own words.

Muman:  "I still believe you KWRBT are a bit naive to believe that the scientists will be constrained by any moral code."

My response:  "And I believe you have no idea what you are saying."

Muman "And I am entirely sure you are naive when it comes to the nature of mankind..."


Oops!  No excuses Muman, no one wants to hear them.   Please stay focused on the topic instead of trying to assert who is righteous or not.

Oh, so you considered the fact that I think you are naive to be an insult. Honestly it was not intended as one. Just that in the past you have argued about this in the same manner. Expecting scientists and industry to conform to laws created by the government... I just don't think that is a realistic explanation.

I also do not intend to get into any kind of insult competition with you. I have always considered you to be a great JTF member and someone whom I agree with most of the time.

What I said in my first post is:

This is the sickness which modern science has unleashed on us. Humans believing that they are G-d and rewriting ethics in their own depraved image...

This kind of thing must stop!

And it is true that modern science has unleashed these problems.... When humans believe that they are like Hashem, able to select the traits which are desirable in children, they are rewriting ethics in their own image...

Have you studied the story of the Tower of Babel? What lessons are learned from that story?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Oh, so you considered the fact that I think you are naive to be an insult. Honestly it was not intended as one. Just that in the past you have argued about this in the same manner.

  And when I said you had no clue what you were saying, it was also not intended as an insult.  It was an honest conviction that I shared as a description of reality based on your comments in this thread.     

[muman613]

  And when I said you had no clue what you were saying, it was also not intended as an insult.  It was an honest conviction that I shared as a description of reality based on your comments in this thread.     

I just hope that you are responsible in any science you are involved with. I suspect as you go out to work you will run into scientists who are not as moral and righteous as yourself. I sincerely hope that you will be able to influence others to do the right thing..

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I work as a software engineer and I have a degree as a 'Computer Scientist'. My work doesn't overstep any ethical or moral boundaries

That's debatable!

See, you want to take the easy way out.  Everyone else's profession is subject to scrutiny but not yours.

But those who are scientists (other types, such as biologists, chemists, biochemists, etc), and who are personally abiding by ethical guidelines and ethical commonsense, would say the same thing about their work that you claim about your own work!  
And they would also be saying 'who the hell is this guy to cast aspersions on what we do?'

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I just hope that you are responsible in any science you are involved with.

Then I hope for the same thing from you.  Because as we all know, software can be used for good or for bad.

[Meerkat]

science only answers the questions of how the world functions

ethics questions, which a lot of times involve the right ways to use science, are answered by consumers or voters.

[muman613]

Then I hope for the same thing from you.  Because as we all know, software can be used for good or for bad.

You don't think I worry about that too? I think of the negative uses of the technology I work on and it bothers me. Also when I worked in the defense industry {in the late 80s} I also worried that the weapons systems I worked on might be used to kill innocent people.... This is why I am happy that I got out of the defense sector over 20 years ago.

Actually I also feel bad because most of the technology I work on goes into TV, DVD, and set-top IPTV boxes.... I do not watch TV or cable in my house because there is no good programming on. It bothers me that a lot of the programming which will be displayed through the audio/video technology I work on will end up causing kids to follow the wrong path {the path of sexual immorality and consumerism}.... But I am consoled that the technology can also be used to learn Torah and spread wisdom..

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I noticed that some of my most substantial points you choose not to address.   Oh well.  

[muman613]

I noticed that some of my most substantial points you choose not to address.   Oh well.  

If you would like... But I basically have expressed what I think needed to be expressed.


I do not think that technology or science is inherently evil. As I said many times technology is a tool which can be used for good or bad. But I have grown out of my idealistic phase where I believed that a majority of people have the best interest of the society in mind. I have become a bit leery because over time I witnessed science not being as 'solid' as it implied it was. Many theories have fallen by the wayside. Many ideas which government started to become involved with {such as Global Warming, Global Cooling, Population explosion, etc.} have been shown to be false. Politicians such as Al Gore are prepared to use science in order to cause social changes in America and around the world. Doctors today rely way too much on drugs which are basically given like candy to them from the Pharma companies. You say there are laws against this... But my experience at the Doctors office is the opposite... They give me sample drugs virtually every time I visit the doctor. I refused to take some of the medicines which they were handing out... The doctors office has posters of new drugs with the expression "Ask your doctor about XYZZY!"...

So if you want to civilly discuss my opinion I will gladly engage in the discussion. If you intend on trying to prove I am wrong and denigrate me {I am not accusing you of this} then I will not go along...

[muman613]

science only answers the questions of how the world functions

ethics questions, which a lot of times involve the right ways to use science, are answered by consumers or voters.

My point exactly... 'consumers or voters' who blow with the wind of politics...

[Dr. Dan]

It's not science our technology that is evil.  It's evil puerile which is evil.  You dont stop technology and science because it could be used for evil.  You stop evil puerile from being evil.

And religion can be used for evil. Look what mohammad did to twist judaism into his satanic theology.

As far as creating gay genes and gay parents who want to have genetic engineered gay kids the more it seems that if given the choice to those sickos to be straight if they had the will, the more likely they would choose to be homosexual.

[Yaakov Mendel]

I doubt that it is possible to isolate a "gay gene" but if it became possible, it would be a disgusting thing to do to impose that gene artificially on your child.