How can I love Israel?

[The One and Only Mo]

After listening to this week's intro to ASK JTF (which wasn't any new information, obviously because out whole movement is based on it) I had an epiphany; Why the hell do I love Israel? Sure, I know there are a lot of good Jews there and a lot of Torah and it's our inheritance etc. but the fact of the matter isn't who LIVES there, it's who runs it. So I love the good people who live there, but what the hell can I say about the leftists? What the hell is the point anymore? This Itamar massacre really enforced the idea for me. I absolutely hate the leftists in Israel and I would never want to support them. The ones I love are the ones who believe what I believe. But honestly, any hope I ever have of making aaliyah is dwindling away the more that crap like this keeps happening. Why do I want to live in a country that is a)given to them by the Torah but the country ignores the Torah's laws b) finances Fatah and other Arabs etc. c) would probably let me die if I were trapped in a situation that rescuing me would harm "innocent" Arabs. d) That cares about the lives of Arabs more than its own soldiers and people, e) that doesn't even try to export the Arabs f) That throws out its own people g) that wants its land to shrink h) That won't allow Chaim Ben Pesach, one of the greatest leaders, to even VISIT? Of course we could add to this list I'm sure. The point I'm trying to make is that I am no longer pro-Israel; I am pro good-Jew. How many more Jewish carcasses have to be wrapped in Talisis and buried before other people catch on? I know Hitler is burning in hell, but I feel like he's getting some sort of a sick pleasure out of knowing that because of him millions of Jews aren't frum and they are continuing his work by treating it's own people like crap.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Or, perhaps we should stop living in a world of wishful thinking and come to realize Israel's designers never had a Jewish narrative to begin with. And it doesn't matter who you vote for, vote for BALAD as far as I'm concerned. your vote is as meaningless as a vote for Brejnev in good old SSSR. That's my personal opinion, but you cannot change an anti-Semitic state which was founded on the blood of millions of Jewish men, women and children. Which throws Jews out of their homes. Which destroys synagoguges. Which slaughters Holocaust survivors. Eliminates Jews' Jewishness. Massacres our people by arming our murderers. Kicking us out of our land and giving it to them. The entire system is anti-Semitic olygrachy. Down with the state!

[muman613]

The true Jewish state will rise from the ashes of the secular nightmare of a state which they created. I too am beginning to feel that the Israel which exists today is an evil entity which was created to kill Jews. Only when the Moshiach comes will the Jewish people merit to live in the land. Unfortunately this sounds a lot like Satmar ideology... Yet there is no excuse to support our enemies...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

After listening to this week's intro to ASK JTF (which wasn't any new information, obviously because out whole movement is based on it) I had an epiphany; Why the hell do I love Israel? Sure, I know there are a lot of good Jews there and a lot of Torah and it's our inheritance etc. but the fact of the matter isn't who LIVES there, it's who runs it. So I love the good people who live there, but what the hell can I say about the leftists? What the hell is the point anymore? This Itamar massacre really enforced the idea for me. I absolutely hate the leftists in Israel and I would never want to support them. The ones I love are the ones who believe what I believe. But honestly, any hope I ever have of making aaliyah is dwindling away the more that crap like this keeps happening. Why do I want to live in a country that is a)given to them by the Torah but the country ignores the Torah's laws b) finances Fatah and other Arabs etc. c) would probably let me die if I were trapped in a situation that rescuing me would harm "innocent" Arabs. d) That cares about the lives of Arabs more than its own soldiers and people, e) that doesn't even try to export the Arabs f) That throws out its own people g) that wants its land to shrink h) That won't allow Chaim Ben Pesach, one of the greatest leaders, to even VISIT? Of course we could add to this list I'm sure. The point I'm trying to make is that I am no longer pro-Israel; I am pro good-Jew. How many more Jewish carcasses have to be wrapped in Talisis and buried before other people catch on? I know Hitler is burning in hell, but I feel like he's getting some sort of a sick pleasure out of knowing that because of him millions of Jews aren't frum and they are continuing his work by treating it's own people like crap.

There is nothing that says you have to love the evil leadership running israel.  Likewise biblical jews if they stuck to the Torah's precepts, did not have to love the evil kings who were idol worshipers in some cases (anathema to our entire existence).  We are commanded to love our fellows - am yisrael - and perhaps the land of israel but not necessarily a govt especially not an evil one ruling over these things so where is the dilemma?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Or, perhaps we should stop living in a world of wishful thinking and come to realize Israel's designers never had a Jewish narrative to begin with. And it doesn't matter who you vote for, vote for BALAD as far as I'm concerned. your vote is as meaningless as a vote for Brejnev in good old SSSR. That's my personal opinion, but you cannot change an anti-Semitic state which was founded on the blood of millions of Jewish men, women and children. Which throws Jews out of their homes. Which destroys synagoguges. Which slaughters Holocaust survivors. Eliminates Jews' Jewishness. Massacres our people by arming our murderers. Kicking us out of our land and giving it to them. The entire system is anti-Semitic olygrachy. Down with the state!

But I seriously doubt you would dream of advising jews not to come to israel.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I see now that you are asking about aliyah, but why should a lack of allegiance to an evil leadership and a corrupt state and its institutions get in the way of an ESSENTIAL mitzvah!

This is because G-d said so we have the obligation and privilege to live in our homeland.  Ultimately, not because of anything else.

As to being "pro israel" - I haven't been that since I read about rabbi kahane learned about gush katif and came to this forum.    Anything I say I try to always tint with cynicism and coat it with a critique of jewish weakness.   Those types of comments always ruffle the feathers of the "proisrael" types

I agree the lack of allegiance is a problem and it weighs on my considerations heavily, but nonetheless I know ultimately what my true purpose and duty is as a Jew and I don't want to be one of these blind galutniks who don't even know the real thing wrong with israel.  We are smart enough to know there can be a jewish state "before messiah" and it can possibly be less than ideal -there is no magic cure- and that jews are commanded to live in our sacred homeland and judaism is just imitation without that.   Any day of the week I will put my lot in with those Jews in israel than the galut jews even if we need drastic changes it is worlds better than rejecting Gods land and fressing on chulent in american fleshpots with self-assured other jews who just point the finger and triumphally say - You see those antizionist "gedolim" were right and I'm absolved of all responsibility I just stay here and wait for moshiah and hide in a hole like an exile worm until the time comes.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The true Jewish state will rise from the ashes of the secular nightmare of a state which they created. I too am beginning to feel that the Israel which exists today is an evil entity which was created to kill Jews. Only when the Moshiach comes will the Jewish people merit to live in the land. Unfortunately this sounds a lot like Satmar ideology... Yet there is no excuse to support our enemies...

But there is not necessarily a need for moschiah in order for this to happen (for the true jewish state to rise on the ashes of the current-establishment neonazis).  I think it is a grave mistake to reserve or assign this task only to some unknown heroic figure who will achieve it magically.   

The secular zionists achieved their state without moschiah and we can destroy their evil oligarchy without moschiah.  We just have to have the right plan and with Gods help we can succeed.

[muman613]

But there is not necessarily a need for moschiah in order for this to happen (for the true jewish state to rise on the ashes of the current-establishment neonazis).  I think it is a grave mistake to reserve or assign this task only to some unknown heroic figure who will achieve it magically.   

The secular zionists achieved their state without moschiah and we can destroy their evil oligarchy without moschiah.  We just have to have the right plan and with Gods help we can succeed.

I dont think Moshiach will employ magic in order to bring the hoped for Jewish state. I would love to see a secular Jewish state if only it was possible. The problem, in my opinion, is that any state which calls itself Jewish while ignoring Torah will surely not last. I believe that the Hashem has stated in the Torah of Moshe that if the Jewish people turn their backs on him, Hashem will turn his back on the Jewish people.

I really think it would be best for Israel to teach Judaism to the Jews in order to survive...

[The One and Only Mo]

I see now that you are asking about aliyah, but why should a lack of allegiance to an evil leadership and a corrupt state and its institutions get in the way of an ESSENTIAL mitzvah!

This is because G-d said so we have the obligation and privilege to live in our homeland.  Ultimately, not because of anything else.

As to being "pro israel" - I haven't been that since I read about rabbi kahane learned about gush katif and came to this forum.    Anything I say I try to always tint with cynicism and coat it with a critique of jewish weakness.   Those types of comments always ruffle the feathers of the "proisrael" types

I agree the lack of allegiance is a problem and it weighs on my considerations heavily, but nonetheless I know ultimately what my true purpose and duty is as a Jew and I don't want to be one of these blind galutniks who don't even know the real thing wrong with israel.  We are smart enough to know there can be a jewish state "before messiah" and it can possibly be less than ideal -there is no magic cure- and that jews are commanded to live in our sacred homeland and judaism is just imitation without that.   Any day of the week I will put my lot in with those Jews in israel than the galut jews even if we need drastic changes it is worlds better than rejecting Gods land and fressing on chulent in american fleshpots with self-assured other jews who just point the finger and triumphally say - You see those antizionist "gedolim" were right and I'm absolved of all responsibility I just stay here and wait for moshiah and hide in a hole like an exile worm until the time comes.

If they don't want Chaim or a Kahanist government then they don't want me. If I moved to Israel I'd basically be saying it's a good thing to live there. Well, I don't think it's good to live in a place where they openly rape the Torah's values. Like I want to pay taxes to that country? Bull crap. I wonder if the Fogel family knew that if one day this would happen to them if they would still settle in Itamar. They death has to mean something. Just catching the murderers' won't do much to solve the problem. I've said it before and I'll say it again; Israel can't have its cake and eat it too. If they allow Arabs to live next to live (forget about funding them) then they have to accept every act of terror with open arms because they brought it on themselves. They don't want to see the solution, so this family's blood is on their hands as will be all the rest of the Jews' slaughtered by Arabs. How can they complain that this happened when they cause it themselves? It's like me cutting of my leg and complaining that I am in pain! DUH!!!!!!!!! I just cut off my own freakin' leg! So as much as I love the good Jews in Israel (and I have plenty of friends and Rabbis there) I cannot for the life of me understand how people can live in a country like that. This incident showed me that's it's so much better to live away from Israel because, at the LEAST, I am not supporting that wicked country financially or stating to the world that it is worthy of my presence. Maybe I'm confused, maybe I'm just FED UP, but I don't give a crap anymore.... it's too hypocritical.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I dont think Moshiach will employ magic in order to bring the hoped for Jewish state. I would love to see a secular Jewish state if only it was possible. The problem, in my opinion, is that any state which calls itself Jewish while ignoring Torah will surely not last. I believe that the Hashem has stated in the Torah of Moshe that if the Jewish people turn their backs on him, Hashem will turn his back on the Jewish people.

I really think it would be best for Israel to teach Judaism to the Jews in order to survive...

I think you missed the whole point of what I said.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If they don't want Chaim or a Kahanist government then they don't want me. If I moved to Israel I'd basically be saying it's a good thing to live there. Well, I don't think it's good to live in a place where they openly rape the Torah's values. Like I want to pay taxes to that country? Bull crap. I wonder if the Fogel family knew that if one day this would happen to them if they would still settle in Itamar. They death has to mean something. Just catching the murderers' won't do much to solve the problem. I've said it before and I'll say it again; Israel can't have its cake and eat it too. If they allow Arabs to live next to live (forget about funding them) then they have to accept every act of terror with open arms because they brought it on themselves. They don't want to see the solution, so this family's blood is on their hands as will be all the rest of the Jews' slaughtered by Arabs. How can they complain that this happened when they cause it themselves? It's like me cutting of my leg and complaining that I am in pain! DUH!!!!!!!!! I just cut off my own freakin' leg! So as much as I love the good Jews in Israel (and I have plenty of friends and Rabbis there) I cannot for the life of me understand how people can live in a country like that. This incident showed me that's it's so much better to live away from Israel because, at the LEAST, I am not supporting that wicked country financially or stating to the world that it is worthy of my presence. Maybe I'm confused, maybe I'm just FED UP, but I don't give a crap anymore.... it's too hypocritical.

But G-d has commanded us to take possession of the land, and that is more important than any of the other concerns, at the end of the day.   You're right on a lot of these points, but I really don't think that by going to Israel it is an affirmation of the regime or institutions there or saying "this is a great country."   In fact, if that IS someone's understanding of that deed, then they are mixed up in the head and going there for the wrong reasons.    Going to Israel is an affirmation of the BIBLE!    G-d gave me this land and I am embracing it, as he promised it to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and this LAND is a beautiful place to live, despite the current evil regime destroying our people there.   We will overcome that regime.   No one will overcome anything by hiding in some phony ghetto like lakewood, the so-called "ihr ha torah" (what a desecration).

I know olim in Israel who didn't actually accept citizenship and never officially "made aliyah" by Israeli paperwork and citizenship standards.  However, they have certainly "made aliyah" in the sense of the mitzvah because they are living there and raising families they give birth to there and educate there in Torah!

Even satmar who are ideologically opposed to the very existence of ANY state there, and who envision the magical destruction of the current state and replacement by savior with a whole new one instantly by miracle, they go and live in Israel too.

[The One and Only Mo]

But G-d has commanded us to take possession of the land, and that is more important than any of the other concerns, at the end of the day.   You're right on a lot of these points, but I really don't think that by going to Israel it is an affirmation of the regime or institutions there or saying "this is a great country."   In fact, if that IS someone's understanding of that deed, then they are mixed up in the head and going there for the wrong reasons.    Going to Israel is an affirmation of the BIBLE!    G-d gave me this land and I am embracing it, as he promised it to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and this LAND is a beautiful place to live, despite the current evil regime destroying our people there.   We will overcome that regime.   No one will overcome anything by hiding in some phony ghetto like lakewood, the so-called "ihr ha torah" (what a desecration).

I know olim in Israel who didn't actually accept citizenship and never officially "made aliyah" by Israeli paperwork and citizenship standards.  However, they have certainly "made aliyah" in the sense of the mitzvah because they are living there and raising families they give birth to there and educate there in Torah!

Even satmar who are ideologically opposed to the very existence of ANY state there, and who envision the magical destruction of the current state and replacement by savior with a whole new one instantly by miracle, they go and live in Israel too.

The Jews of Lakewood are beautiful people and they are certainly more religious than the majority of Israelis. Don't attack other religious Jews like that. Judge the place by its people.
Living in Israel is a mitzvah, but I don't consider "that country in the middle East" the real Israel  - - - it's some pansy, subservient colony that just happens to have a lot of Jews. It's not the same land given to us by Hashem, it's a much smaller, twisted version filled with people who desecrate the land and clearly don't care about shrinking it even more and committing national suicide . There are good and bad people everywhere, but to pick on people because they don't want to live in Israel for the right reasons is ludicrous. The government is treacherous and I personally want to stay as far away as possible. We're supposed to feel safe there? Jews are supposed to feel at home? I felt more at home in Lakewood because at least Lakewood doesn't claim to be created for the sole purpose of protecting Jews and being a "homeland".

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The Jews of Lakewood are beautiful people and they are certainly more religious than the majority of Israelis. Don't attack other religious Jews like that. Judge the place by its people.
Living in Israel is a mitzvah, but I don't consider "that country in the middle East" the real Israel  - - - it's some pansy, subservient colony that just happens to have a lot of Jews. It's not the same land given to us by Hashem, it's a much smaller, twisted version filled with people who desecrate the land and clearly don't care about shrinking it even more and committing national suicide . There are good and bad people everywhere, but to pick on people because they don't want to live in Israel for the right reasons is ludicrous. The government is treacherous and I personally want to stay as far away as possible. We're supposed to feel safe there? Jews are supposed to feel at home? I felt more at home in Lakewood because at least Lakewood doesn't claim to be created for the sole purpose of protecting Jews and being a "homeland".

What do I care about the so called "beauty" of the ghetto-dwellers?   Of course Jews should be religious, but they have twisted ideas about how to express our religion!   And part of that is there insistence that Lakewood has come to replace Jerusalem, and that is exactly what they are saying when they call it that (Ihr HaTorah).  It's truly disgusting.   And many are delusional about the "granduer" of that place.    But the problem is that they view it as the end-all and be-all of Judaism.    They are not staying out of Israel because of the things you lamented in this thread.   They are staying out because they have embraced Galuth and they view the holy lakewood as the pinnacle of existence.   Sorry but that's how I see it, and I interact with these people.
If there are individuals there who have views like you and that's why they stay out, I can at least respect that, but it has to be about 0.01 % of them.     Your gripes about Medinat Israel are legitimate.   Theirs are ideological rhetorical baloney designed to absolve them of responsibility for anything other than perpetuating Galut since that's easy to do.


And none of this is attacking religious Jews because I am merely pointing out the FACTS!   The fact is, I care about these Jews deeply which is why I bother to comment about it and state that their values are mixed up.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The Jews of Lakewood are beautiful people and they are certainly more religious than the majority of Israelis. Don't attack other religious Jews like that. Judge the place by its people.
Living in Israel is a mitzvah, but I don't consider "that country in the middle East" the real Israel  - - - it's some pansy, subservient colony that just happens to have a lot of Jews. It's not the same land given to us by Hashem, it's a much smaller, twisted version filled with people who desecrate the land and clearly don't care about shrinking it even more and committing national suicide . There are good and bad people everywhere, but to pick on people because they don't want to live in Israel for the right reasons is ludicrous.

Their reasons are the WRONG REASONS, and that was precisely my point.

Your reasons, even though I still think GOD'S COMMANDMENT trumps any of it, Are the right reasons.

Their reasons are ideological suicidal nonsense and an obsession with re-erecting the walls of the European ghetto and recreating pre World War One European Jewish life in new places in modern day.

To me, the galut-lovers are no different than the ghetto-Jews who run Israel.   It's the same diseased mindset but one has a religious veneer, and the other has a secular so-called pioneer veneer.    Exile mentality nonetheless.

[The One and Only Mo]

What do I care about the so called "beauty" of the ghetto-dwellers?   Of course Jews should be religious, but they have twisted ideas about how to express our religion!   And part of that is there insistence that Lakewood has come to replace Jerusalem, and that is exactly what they are saying when they call it that (Ihr HaTorah).  It's truly disgusting.   And many are delusional about the "granduer" of that place.    But the problem is that they view it as the end-all and be-all of Judaism.    They are not staying out of Israel because of the things you lamented in this thread.   They are staying out because they have embraced Galuth and they view the holy lakewood as the pinnacle of existence.   Sorry but that's how I see it, and I interact with these people.
If there are individuals there who have views like you and that's why they stay out, I can at least respect that, but it has to be about 0.01 % of them.     Your gripes about Medinat Israel are legitimate.   Theirs are ideological rhetorical baloney designed to absolve them of responsibility for anything other than perpetuating Galut since that's easy to do.


And none of this is attacking religious Jews because I am merely pointing out the FACTS!   The fact is, I care about these Jews deeply which is why I bother to comment about it and state that their values are mixed up.

You are correct about that. Obviously nobody should view Lakewood or any other place in that regard.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I mean think of it this way.  When Rabbi Kahane preached aliyah to religious Jews, he wasn't "preaching to the choir" - quite the opposite.   Because many of the rabbis of the galuth have excised the nationalism component from Judaism that they teach.

[The One and Only Mo]

Their reasons are the WRONG REASONS, and that was precisely my point.

Your reasons, even though I still think G-d'S COMMANDMENT trumps any of it, Are the right reasons.

Their reasons are ideological suicidal nonsense and an obsession with re-erecting the walls of the European ghetto and recreating pre World War One European Jewish life in new places in modern day.

To me, the galut-lovers are no different than the ghetto-Jews who run Israel.   It's the same diseased mindset but one has a religious veneer, and the other has a secular so-called pioneer veneer.    Exile mentality nonetheless.

Yes, the people who believe they can create Israel in other places are wrong. I still think it's alright to for these people to live outside of Israel for financial reasons. Most Lakewood families have spent significant time there but a lot of them move back to chutz laretz because they just can't make it there financially. I can't judge them for that. The only people I can judge are the people who really love Israel and know it's great but decide not to live there because they are more comfortable here with 3 cars instead of 1 and a huge house instead of an apartment. But really, who am I to tell people how to live their lives? The point is, it's a sad situation that we live in. It's sad that I have to live with a distrust, fear, and hatred of those in power in Israel to the point that aaliyah sounds like a death sentence to me. I wish I could be more like you and the rest of the people who aren't phased by that. But this latest attack was really the last straw for me. Not to say I never felt horrible and angry about the rest of the attacks, but something inside of me has has literaly snapped and I don't know why. Maybe it will go away in time, but I feel guilty for going on with my life when I know that those affected by terrorism, particularly the Fogel family and the 12 year old girl, are living a nightmare.

[The One and Only Mo]

I mean think of it this way.  When Rabbi Kahane preached aliyah to religious Jews, he wasn't "preaching to the choir" - quite the opposite.   Because many of the rabbis of the galuth have excised the nationalism component from Judaism that they teach.

I think the point of making aaliyah is to fight for the country like all those settlers that we support. But it's circular because it's as if the very country they are fighting for doesn't have their back, you know?

[muman613]

Mo,

You must love Israel.

Now with that being said I will clarify what I am saying to you. There must be a place in your heart for the Jewish nation. Today that Jewish nation may be expressed in the state of Israel. Of course todays State is not what our forefathers and prophets envisioned. But even so, the fact that there is a state which is nominally 'Jewish' and has the potential for serious Jewish growth, is a reason to have hope.

Now don't think that I have not felt like you say you are feeling. My feeling toward the modern state of Israel has waxed and waned over the years. But the Jewish people are compared to the moon, we wax and we wane { see http://www.njop.org/html/Pinchas5767-2007.html } . At times like these we feel anger and rejection. But I feel confident that the Jewish people will survive and we will fulfill the dreams and the goals of religious Zionism.

Every day I wake up and feel the resistance in the world to Jews and Judaism. Every day I read things which really challenge my emmunah. I struggle to keep my mood happy when I know all the injustice and pain in the world. But Hashem has given me the strength to endure many things I never thought I could endure. Our challenges are greater than the challenges of the nations. So many Jews have been thrown off the path by so many forces that we, those who still feel the Jewish neshamah inside us, must keep the mesorah { see http://www.beingjewish.com/mesorah/ } and try to pass on what we know. It is very great that you have learned so much. You will make a great teacher too.

Rosh Chodesh has a special and prominent place in Jewish tradition. While most of the nations of the world calculate their calendars based on the sun, the Jews abide primarily by the lunar calendar with adjustments to coordinate with the solar calendar. The symbolism of the moon is very important to the Jewish people, who are often compared to the moon, especially to the moon’s proclivity to wax and wane. While the light of the moon is dim in comparison to the light of the sun, and though the light of the moon may, at times, appear to be completely lacking, it is the moon that has the capacity for renewal, not the sun. It is this capacity for renewal with which Jews identify, and is the secret of Israel’s endurance and eternity. While other nations often rise to great heights, once they peak, they decline and do not rise again, and frequently vanish completely.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yes, the people who believe they can create Israel in other places are wrong. I still think it's alright to for these people to live outside of Israel for financial reasons.

FINANCIAL REASONS?!

 



They should be learning a trade to survive instead of intending to live on the dole as kollel families.  

Most Lakewood families have spent significant time there but a lot of them move back to chutz laretz because they just can't make it there financially.

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, this phenomenon is simply that after getting married, the "bochur" intends to learn for a few years in Eretz Yisrael while being supported by his father-in-law/father/mother/mother-in-law etc (whoever else will help), and then come back to reality where they have to make a living and so they return to the US because that is where the best salary can be found, that is where "their communities" are, and there is absolutely no premium on LIVING and SETTLING the land of Israel, it's simply a place to learn for a period of time until the money runs out for them.    Of course it's going to be tough to survive economically if they intend the husband to only sit and learn!   But in israel, the haredi and yeshivish culture is very strongly opposed to haredi men working.

I had one guy (a bochur, I believe he was at the Mir's american program if I remember correctly) tell me he couldn't stand being in Israel because they didn't have his type of cream cheese that he got back in the USA.   He was so annoyed about the cream cheese, it was all that he could say about Israel.

The 3 car phenomenon is also true, but ask yourself really, how many of religious Jews in America go to Israel because of real ideological adherence to G-d's commandments to live there, and then cant make it because of money and come back.   There are real cases like that, but if you ask me, most of the religious Jews, especially lakewood types, never intended to stay there, and never thought there was anything appealing about Israel except that the yeshiva is better and they can learn better for a few years there, then come back.  The culture is that people pick and choose where to live based on how comfortable they will feel - and US trumps Israel for comforts almost every time.  

[Yaakov Mendel]

After listening to this week's intro to ASK JTF (which wasn't any new information, obviously because out whole movement is based on it) I had an epiphany; Why the hell do I love Israel? Sure, I know there are a lot of good Jews there and a lot of Torah and it's our inheritance etc. but the fact of the matter isn't who LIVES there, it's who runs it. So I love the good people who live there, but what the hell can I say about the leftists? What the hell is the point anymore? This Itamar massacre really enforced the idea for me. I absolutely hate the leftists in Israel and I would never want to support them. The ones I love are the ones who believe what I believe. But honestly, any hope I ever have of making aaliyah is dwindling away the more that crap like this keeps happening. Why do I want to live in a country that is a)given to them by the Torah but the country ignores the Torah's laws b) finances Fatah and other Arabs etc. c) would probably let me die if I were trapped in a situation that rescuing me would harm "innocent" Arabs. d) That cares about the lives of Arabs more than its own soldiers and people, e) that doesn't even try to export the Arabs f) That throws out its own people g) that wants its land to shrink h) That won't allow Chaim Ben Pesach, one of the greatest leaders, to even VISIT? Of course we could add to this list I'm sure. The point I'm trying to make is that I am no longer pro-Israel; I am pro good-Jew. How many more Jewish carcasses have to be wrapped in Talisis and buried before other people catch on? I know Hitler is burning in hell, but I feel like he's getting some sort of a sick pleasure out of knowing that because of him millions of Jews aren't frum and they are continuing his work by treating it's own people like crap.

You bring up good points and I share your feeling of exasperation. However, if you are a true Jew, it seems to me that the best call is to make aliyah and to join the resistance against the corrupt and insane Israeli Establishment by fighting against expulsions of Jews and helping a true Kahanist movement come to power. I am not saying this to lecture you (I haven't made aliyah myself...).

[Dr. Dan]

Learn hebrew. If you've done that already, make money and invest in real estate in israel.

you think you can hide from Gd like yonah.  But the galut here us worse for us to live in than current day israel.  and it will get even worse here.

[The One and Only Mo]

U guys make good points. The only way I see aaliyah as making sense is if a) You're going because the more Jews there are in Israel means that we can outnumber the Arabs and you are moving to make a point, that no matter what, only Jews should be living there. b) to be on those settlements for the purpose of defending the land c) Because you believe in the mitzvah. But to move there because one loves the government, is apathetic towards the government, or wants to help the government's cause just BOILS MY BLOOD! These settlers (like the Fogels) risk their lives for the country of Israel and most Israelis and Jews in Israel don't recognize that. It wasn't until I was in Yeshiva and we visited a settlement in Chevron surrounded by Arabs that I fully understood what "settling" really meant. The building we saw had non-stop IDF guys around it constantly. The Arabs still made life hell for the Jews in that building. There were power outages etc. But who's benefiting from it? The leftist who really don't care either way. But these settlers, I guess, aren't settling for the benefit of the government. They are settling because Hashem commanded us to live there and it doesn't belong to the Arabs. How many people actually believe in Kahanism and what it stands for? It just feels like an impossible battle sometimes, especially after seeing the Fogel tragedy. I wonder if any Jew would retaliate in the same way  - - - killing a Muslim family as revenge. The secret service/shin bet etc. can pull that off easily I'm sure (among other things, but I digress). Just where's the reward for these people? The reward for the Fogels was given to them Friday night.