We Must Have Mercy On The Remnant Left In Japan, But Pls Look-Zech Chapt 12

[muman613]

In the pursuit of truth I will also post a link to an opposing opinion... This piece says that there are times we should rejoice in the downfall of the enemy:


http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/avot/10avot.htm

II. What Does Shemuel Add?

Shemuel's statement is unique among all the other mishnayot in Pirkei Avot in that he merely cites a pasuk from Mishlei, without adding any explanation or commentary. Evidently, he felt that the theme contained in the pasuk was so crucial that it bore constant reiteration, and he would therefore cite this proverb often. The pasuk in Mishlei (24:17-18) reads: "When your enemy falters do not rejoice (bi-nfol oivekha al tismach), and when he stumbles do not feel glee (u-ve-koshlo al yagel libekha), lest Hashem notice and disapprove (pen yireh Hashem ve-ra be-einav), and avert His anger from him (ve-heishiv mei-alav apo)." This pasuk, which warns against triumphant celebration at our enemies' demise, raises numerous moral and theological questions. Perhaps the most famous application of this theme occurs on Pesach, when we refrain from reciting full hallel on the seventh day (and, by extension, during Chol Ha-mo'ed) since the Egyptians drowned on that day. As the gemara in Sanhedrin (39b) narrates, Hashem told the angels who wished to recite hallel at the time of keri'at Yam Suf, "My creatures are drowning at sea, and you will recite hallel to me?" Based on this gemara, the Shulchan Arukh (O.C. 490) rules that only half-hallel is recited after the first day of Pesach. (Recently, with the welcome death of Yasser Arafat - a murderer responsible for the brutal death of thousands of innocent Jews - this question resurfaced.)

It should be noted that although this is the prevalent explanation for the half-hallel recitation on Pesach, a dissenting opinion applies an alternate reason. The gemara in Arakhin (10a) claims that the last six days of Pesach warrant only half-hallel because they all feature the same musaf offering. Unlike Sukkot, during which the korbanot differ from day to day, Pesach requires the exact same protocol each and every day. This uniformity of korbanot reflects a homogeny which renders these days unworthy of complete hallel. By taking this approach, we may 'ignore' the rationale presented in Sanhedrin, and perhaps, theoretically, warrant hallel recitation when the evil perish. Indeed, the Shulchan Arukh cites Sanhedrin's basis, but many poskim cite the dissenting logic of the gemara in Arakhin.

III. Three Qualifications

The verse in Mishlei notwithstanding, several other sources do, in fact, call for rejoicing at the death of enemies, suggesting that the admonition against rejoicing at an enemy's downfall might not apply universally.

Firstly, the gemara in Masekhet Megilla (16a) recounts a discussion between Mordekhai and Haman as the latter was bending to hoist the former onto the horse to begin the parade through the streets of Shushan. As Mordekhai ascended onto Haman's back, he kicked him, to which Haman responded, "Doesn't your Torah prohibit such triumphantism,?" and cited the pasuk in Mishlei as proof. Mordekhai replied that although joy is forbidden at the ruin of JEWISH foes, great elation may be sensed (and expressed) at the failure of non-Jewish enemies. Of course, Mordekhai's response calls into question the discussion of the gemara in Sanhedrin. Since the Egyptians were not Jewish, their downfall should have invited unmitigated celebration in the same manner that Haman's did. Why, then, do we refrain from a complete hallel recitation on Pesach?

This question may be resolved in light of the continuation of that very same gemara in Sanhedrin, where the gemara cites a different pasuk from Mishlei (11:10): "when evildoers are destroyed, there is joy" ("ba-avod resha'im rina"). After noting the seeming contradiction between the two pesukim, the gemara ultimately explains that Hashem Himself is not joyful (and hallel is therefore not recited), but others (the righteous) may indeed rejoice. A second criterion thus emerges that even pertaining to non-Jewish criminals, Hashem does not exult, but the 'victims' of the particular evil may rejoice, though without reciting hallel to Hashem. Hence, Mordekhai was justified in punting Haman, but would not be authorized to recite hallel.

Rabbenu Yona, in his commentary to Avot, raises yet a third factor. Triumphing at others' sorrow – expressing any form of joy over the fall of a Jewish enemy, or reciting hallel at the decline of a gentile enemy – is morally odious and halkhically forbidden. However, celebrating Hashem's victory (the death of evil, the cessation of chillul Hashem) is not only permissible, but also expected. After all – as the gemara asserts in Megilla (14a) – reading the Megilla is actually a form of hallel (which is one reason why actual hallel is not recited on Purim). The angels were not permitted to recite hallel because THEIR joy seemed to be indulging in the suffering of the Egyptians. Invulnerable to their persecution, and inactive in the historical process, they could not sense the desecration of Hashem's Name which this miracle relieved. By contrast, human beings sense Hashem's glorification when history is altered and the wicked are destroyed, and are therefore permitted to recite hallel.

Evidence to Rabbenu Yona's theory may be drawn from the gemara in Bava Batra, which lists the seventh of Kislev as one of 'national holidays' recorded in Megillat Ta'anit (a list of minor festivals established to commemorate certain momentous events). This was the day on which King Herod, a violent enemy of the Sages, passed away, an event worthy of commemoration through a national holiday. This holiday witnessed the sensation and national expression of joy at the death of a Jewish criminal. Evidently, it is Rabbenu Yona's exemption – allowing the celebration of kiddush Hashem – that accounts for this allowance.

Of course, Rabbenu Yona's distinction begs the question of why we do not recite full hallel on the seventh day of Pesach to celebrate Hashem's magnificence. Perhaps Chazal feared that we would indulge too deeply in the cataclysmic suffering of the Egyptians, and not sufficiently celebrate Hashem's glory.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I believe we don't say the full Hallel on Pesach...

http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2001/moadim/rwil_hallel.html

LOL!   Like the saying, you never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity!    The point is that we still do indeed say Hallel!

Like I said before:

The MOST one can possibly say in regards to the suffering of our genocidal enemy nations is that we shouldn't OVERLY enjoy their downfall and destruction and suffering, but to say it's forbidden to rejoice AT ALL, is simply not plausible.     Otherwise cancel the Purim holiday right now!  (And stop saying Hallel on Pesah, stop drinking 4 cups of wine, etc etc etc - G-d forbid.)

Of course, anyone can say anything, but I'm referring to the most someone can say in terms of still being believable.

[muman613]

LOL!   Like the saying, you never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity!    The point is that we still do indeed say Hallel!

Like I said before:

The MOST one can possibly say in regards to the suffering of our genocidal enemy nations is that we shouldn't OVERLY enjoy their downfall and destruction and suffering, but to say it's forbidden to rejoice AT ALL, is simply not plausible.     Otherwise cancel the Purim holiday right now!  (And stop saying Hallel on Pesah, stop drinking 4 cups of wine, etc etc etc - G-d forbid.)

Of course, anyone can say anything, but I'm referring to the most someone can say in terms of still being believable.

I surely daven that our enemies will be dealt with with utter destruction. There is nothing wrong with that. Whether I will celebrate when they are being destroyed will be seen. If it is obvious {as the ground would swallow all arabs in one day} that Hashems hand was smiting the enemy, then I will celebrate... As it stands according to my understanding that we should rejoice when the glory of Hashem is revealed {as we did at the Yam Suf}.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

Exodus 15:1-18 - translation:
1. Then sang Moses and the people of Israel this song to the L-rd, and spoke, saying, I will sing to the L-rd, for He has triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider has He thrown into the sea.
2. The L-rd is my strength and song, and He has become my salvation; He is my G-d, and I will praise Him; my father’s G-d, and I will exalt Him.
3. The L-rd is a man of war; the L-rd is His name.
4. Pharaoh’s chariots and his army has He thrown into the sea; his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red Sea.
5. The depths have covered them; they sank to the bottom as a stone.
6. Your right hand, O L-rd, is glorious in power; Your right hand, O L-rd, has dashed in pieces the enemy.
7. And in the greatness of Your excellency You have overthrown those that rose up against You; You sent forth Your anger, which consumed them as stubble.
8. And with the blast of Your nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as a heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
9. The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the plunder; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.
10. You blew with Your wind, the sea covered them; they sank as lead in the mighty waters.
11. Who is like You, O L-rd, among the gods? who is like You, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
12. You stretched out Your right hand, the earth swallowed them.
13. You in Your mercy have led forth the people whom You have redeemed; You have guided them in Your strength to Your holy habitation.
14. The people shall hear, and be afraid; sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Philistia.
15. Then the chiefs of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.
16. Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of Your arm they shall be as still as a stone; till Your people pass over, O L-rd, till the people pass over, whom You have purchased.
17. You shall bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of Your inheritance, in the place, O L-rd, which You have made for You to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O L-rd, which Your hands have established.
18. The L-rd shall reign forever and ever.

Moses and the entire Jewish people joyfully sang this song after seeing the dead bodies of the Egyptian army floating on the waters of the Red Sea.

Any "rabbi" who says this is not rejoicing over the deaths of our enemies is a liar.

This fervent celebration of our enemies' complete annihilation is also part of our daily prayers.

[muman613]

בס''ד

Exodus 15:1-18 - translation:
1. Then sang Moses and the people of Israel this song to the L-rd, and spoke, saying, I will sing to the L-rd, for He has triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider has He thrown into the sea.
2. The L-rd is my strength and song, and He has become my salvation; He is my G-d, and I will praise Him; my father’s G-d, and I will exalt Him.
3. The L-rd is a man of war; the L-rd is His name.
4. Pharaoh’s chariots and his army has He thrown into the sea; his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red Sea.
5. The depths have covered them; they sank to the bottom as a stone.
6. Your right hand, O L-rd, is glorious in power; Your right hand, O L-rd, has dashed in pieces the enemy.
7. And in the greatness of Your excellency You have overthrown those that rose up against You; You sent forth Your anger, which consumed them as stubble.
8. And with the blast of Your nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as a heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
9. The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the plunder; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.
10. You blew with Your wind, the sea covered them; they sank as lead in the mighty waters.
11. Who is like you, O L-rd, among the gods? who is like you, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
12. You stretched out Your right hand, the earth swallowed them.
13. You in Your mercy have led forth the people whom You have redeemed; You have guided them in Your strength to Your holy habitation.
14. The people shall hear, and be afraid; sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Philistia.
15. Then the chiefs of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.
16. Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of Your arm they shall be as still as a stone; till Your people pass over, O L-rd, till the people pass over, whom You have purchased.
17. You shall bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of Your inheritance, in the place, O L-rd, which You have made for You to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O L-rd, which Your hands have established.
18. The L-rd shall reign forever and ever.

Moses and the entire Jewish people joyfully sang this song after seeing the dead bodies of the Egyptian army floating on the waters of the Red Sea.

Any "rabbi" who says this is not rejoicing over the deaths of our enemies is a liar.

This fervent celebration of our enemies' complete annihilation is also part of our daily prayers.

Chaim, have you read what I posted concerning why the Shir at the Yam is permitted while other 'rejoicing' is not encouraged? I am the 1st one to post the Shir at the sea {as I have done every year here}. It is a glorious revelation of Hashem and the Jews were able to see Hashems hand clearly.

The issue is that there are several pasuks, including the pasuk by Shmuel HaKatan {who is the sage who instituted the prayer in the Amidah against the heretics to which you refer} which clearly says that we should not rejoice in the downfall of our enemies.

See my posting from last month @ http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,52355.0.html & http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,36389.0.html

Are you saying that we should disregard Pirkie Avot and Mishlei {from which Shmuel HaKatan derived his saying}? If not could you please explain your position in light of the sages?

Also I don't know of any Rabbi who I quoted who said that it was wrong to rejoice at the sea... It is clear from the Talmud and all sources that this rejoicing was certainly meritorious. The point I was making is that it is only in situations where Hashems glory is revealed that we should rejoice.... The sages have a variety of opinions whether other times it is permitted.

[muman613]

http://www.pardes.org.il/online_learning/weekly-talmud/2006-01-19.php

See this discussion concerning the curse in the Amidah {written by Shmuel HaKatan}...

World of Our Sages: Prayer as strongbox
By Rabbi Levi Cooper

Jan. 19, 2006

Is the identity of the authors of our supplications and their intentions of any significance when we stand in prayer before the Almighty? Perhaps the substance of our prayers is solely a function of the meaning we lend to the words we say? The Talmud appears to deem authorship important as it reports that Shimon HaPekuli arranged the order of 18 blessings that give the amida its synonomous title - the shemoneh esrei (the 18) (B. Berakhot 28b).

Following this act, the leader of rabbinic Jewry, Rabban Gamliel of Yavneh (Eretz Yisrael, first-second centuries) turned to his colleagues: "Is there anyone who knows how to compile birkat haminim (the benediction against heretics)?" .... Rabbinic leadership decided that there was no place in Jewish society for such heretics and hence sought to denounce them in the amida.

The Talmud relates: Shmuel HaKatan (the lesser) arose and authored this, the nineteenth blessing of the amida. What was the challenge in composing this portion of the amida, and what expertise was needed to author this benediction?

If we contrast the new addition with the rest of the amida, we see that the entire amida is filled with kindness and love, while the benediction censuring the heretics is the only section of the amida that contains destructive sentiments. Indeed, it is entirely natural that one who tries to uproot or dismember the faith of others will incur the wrath of those who hold those beliefs to be essential and sacred. A benediction against heretics, therefore, should have been the easiest portion to compose, as many people would have passionately despised these agitators.

Though such an angry reaction is to be expected, the first chief rabbi of the Land of Israel, Rabbi Avraham Yitzhak HaKohen Kook (1865-1935) writes that a benediction reverberating with negativity should only be composed by one who is pure of heart. Such a person will not blend personal feelings of hate into the canonized texts of the liturgy. Such an untainted person would author the benediction with wholesome motives, focusing only on the Divine plan.
.
.
.
A telltale aphorism of Shmuel HaKatan is found in the mishnaic tractate Avot (4:19): "Shmuel HaKatan says - 'When your enemy falls, do not exult, and when he trips, your heart should not rejoice. Lest the Lord see it and be displeased, and avert His wrath from upon him.' (Proverbs 24:17-18)." This adage of Shmuel HaKatan is indeed strange, for he merely quotes a verse without adding any additional insight. Yet herein lies the key to understanding the many aphorisms in Avot. The dicta quoted are clearly not the only words of the sage; we already know that Shmuel HaKatan's contribution goes beyond this quote. Rather, the maxims represent sayings that each sage would harp upon, urging his community to carefully consider.

In the case of Shmuel HaKatan, he would exhort his followers to focus on this verse and its implications. Though the other might be your adversary, the downfall of this enemy is not a cause for celebration. It is this banner of Shmuel HaKatan that qualified him to compose birkat haminim.

Why is the intent of the author important? When we pray, we invest the words with meaning from our own meditative thoughts. The pure focus of the author - in this case Shmuel HaKatan - does not appear to be bound to the words of the liturgy. This idea might lead us to wonder whether those of us who are not pure of heart should even be reciting this portion of the amida.

Here, too, Rabbi Kook provides us with direction. He writes that we recite the words of the liturgy by right of the godly authors. Though we may be distant from these people of distinguished spirit, we lean on their lofty intent when we recite the prayers. The words of our prayers are umbilically connected to the intentions of the sages who authored those words.

Interestingly, the Hebrew word for 'word' in talmudic parlance is teiva (pl. teivot). Teiva is also a box or container of sorts. The words of our prayers can each be seen as teivot, strongboxes containing the thoughts of the authors.

To be sure, we aspire to open the vaults of prayer and access the intentions of the authors. If we do not succeed in retrieving the original connotations and subtext and we find ourselves mumbling words, these words are nevetheless invested with meaning by the great authors who bequeathed these prayers - words and intentions - to us.

Once again I am not arguing with you Chaim. I am interested in your understanding of these sages, and how they relate to your opinion...

For reference here is a translation of the Curse on Heretics from the Amidah:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/867674/jewish/Translation.htm
Let there be no hope for informers, and may all the heretics and all the wicked instantly perish; may all the enemies of Your people be speedily extirpated; and may You swiftly uproot, break, crush and subdue the reign of wickedness speedily in our days. Blessed are You L-rd, who crushes enemies and subdues the wicked.

[muman613]

And I hope nobody is thinking for a second that I defend the wicked and evil in the world. As I have said numerous times I wish only death and destruction for them. But there is a difference between wanting righteousness to flourish and taking pleasure in the fact that our enemies are suffering.

I don't have any need to feel pleasure when enemies are suffering. Just knowing that they got what they deserved is enough to make my faith and trust in Hashem stronger.

This is the only thing I wanted to express in this thread.

PS: Honestly I am very upset about the murder of the Fogels and cannot deny that I would certainly celebrate if I heard that their murderers were lynched.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

Chaim, have you read what I posted concerning why the Shir at the Yam is permitted while other 'rejoicing' is not encouraged? I am the 1st one to post the Shir at the sea {as I have done every year here}. It is a glorious revelation of Hashem and the Jews were able to see Hashems hand clearly.

The issue is that there are several pasuks, including the pasuk by Shmuel HaKatan {who is the sage who instituted the prayer in the Amidah against the heretics to which you refer} which clearly says that we should not rejoice in the downfall of our enemies.

See my posting from last month @ http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,52355.0.html

Are you saying that we should disregard Pirkie Avot and Mishlei {from which Shmuel HaKatan derived his saying}? If not could you please explain your position in light of the sages?

Also I don't know of any Rabbi who I quoted who said that it was wrong to rejoice at the sea... It is clear from the Talmud and all sources that this rejoicing was certainly meritorious. The point I was making is that it is only in situations where Hashems glory is revealed that we should rejoice.... The sages have a variety of opinions whether other times it is permitted.

בס''ד

Shmuel HaKatan merely quotes Mishlei (Proverbs) without offering any additional commentary.

This quote in Proverbs refers to one's Jewish enemies or rivals, not the murderous enemies of the Jewish people such as the ancient Egyptians, Haman, the Nazis or the Muslim Nazis of our generation.

How do we know that this does not refer to our murderous Nazi enemies? There is no doubt that Moses and the Jews were joyously celebrating upon seeing the drowning deaths of their Egyptian pursuers. Their song, Shirat HaYam, explicitly thanks and praises Hashem for killing every last one of the Egyptian soldiers.

Purim is also clearly a holiday where we joyfully celebrate the death of Haman and the other Nazis who conspired to exterminate the Jewish people.

These "rabbis" who tell us that we cannot celebrate the deaths of our enemies are saying that when Adolf Hitler died, we could not rejoice over his death. How sick.

[muman613]

בס''ד

Shmuel HaKatan merely quotes Mishlei (Proverbs) without offering any additional commentary.

This quote in Proverbs refers to one's Jewish enemies or rivals, not the murderous enemies of the Jewish people such as the ancient Egyptians, Haman, the Nazis or the Muslim Nazis of our generation.

How do we know that this does not refer to our murderous Nazi enemies? There is no doubt that Moses and the Jews were joyously celebrating upon seeing the drowning deaths of their Egyptian pursuers. Their song, Shirat HaYam, explicitly thanks and praises Hashem for killing every last one of the Egyptian soldiers.

Purim is also clearly a holiday where we joyfully celebrate the death of Haman and the other Nazis who conspired to exterminate the Jewish people.

These "rabbis" who tell us that we cannot celebrate the deaths of our enemies are saying that when Adolf Hitler died, we could not rejoice over his death. How sick.

I do not know the 'Rabbis' you refer to... I believe all the material I posted here supports the concept that the song at the sea was fully justified, but that it was due to the fact that Hashems glory was revealed.  But I think I understand your opinion.

If what you are saying is correct why haven't the Jewish people, and our leaders, instituted a Holiday to rejoice the destruction of the Nazi Amalekites?

Maybe you could look into why the sages decided not to do a full-hallel during Pesach and explain why they did so...

Thank you

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

If what you are saying is correct why haven't the Jewish people, and our leaders, instituted a Holiday to rejoice the destruction of the Nazi Amalekites?

The Jews have such a holiday: it's called Purim.

[muman613]

בס''ד

The Jews have such a holiday: it's called Purim.

That is a good answer... But I have heard it asked why we don't have such a special day to celebrate the destruction of the German Nazis... But I like this answer too...

[Saxon Marauder]

I've got a friend who lives in the area where the big earthquake took place. I was very worried for her!   Thankfully, I was able to get in touch with her and have learned that she's fine, just a bit shaken up by events there.   In taking to Sakoto, I've come to conclude that many Japanese are lost and searching for answers since their culture is so predominated by materialism; we talk about G-d sometimes, but she's from a Buddhist and Shinto background, and she seems like a potential righteous gentile to me. She's even somewhat aware of The Name of Gd, but via the the Watchtower Society.   Sadly, because of her encounters with this group (and their antics), they missionize in Japan, she's told me that she doesn't like the name of Ehoba (the Japanese transliteration of Hashem). I hope to be able to correct her feelings one day.

[muman613]

I've got a friend who lives in the area where the big earthquake took place. I was very worried for her!   Thankfully, I was able to get in touch with her and have learned that she's fine, just a bit shaken up by events there.   In taking to Sakoto, I've come to conclude that many Japanese are lost and searching for answers since their culture is so predominated by materialism; we talk about G-d sometimes, but she's from a Buddhist and Shinto background, and she seems like a potential righteous gentile to me. She's even somewhat aware of The Name of Gd, but via the Hashem's Witnesses.   Sadly, because of her encounters with this group (and their antics), they missionize in Japan, she's told me that she doesn't like the name of Ehoba (the Japanese transliteration of Hashem which is a transliteration of The Name). I hope to be able to correct her feelings one day.

That would be wonderful... The company I work at has offices in Japan and thank Hashem they are all safe and accounted for..

[Saxon Marauder]

That would be wonderful... The company I work at has offices in Japan and thank Hashem they are all safe and accounted for..

I modified my post a bit.

Yes, thanks, Sakoto is a smart lady, but her encounters with the various off-the-wall groups in Japan has kind of soured her on Gd. You know the types, who basically break the 1st Commandment by essentially bullying people into believing about Gd.  I've been blessed to know many fine Japanese people over the years and the good ones, even if they're Buddhist or Shinto, are very friendly and warm-hearted. The Japanese of this generation are nothing like the Japanese of the World War 2 era.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Chaim, have you read what I posted concerning why the Shir at the Yam is permitted while other 'rejoicing' is not encouraged?  

Oh come on Muman now your are just speaking gibberish or trying to render language meaningless.  The shir is a form of rejoicing as was the singing and dancing that went with it.  You can't honestly expect someone to take your statement above seriously, can you?  There is no logic there.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

בס''ד

Shmuel HaKatan merely quotes Mishlei (Proverbs) without offering any additional commentary.

This quote in Proverbs refers to one's Jewish enemies or rivals, not the murderous enemies of the Jewish people such as the ancient Egyptians, Haman, the Nazis or the Muslim Nazis of our generation.

How do we know that this does not refer to our murderous Nazi enemies? There is no doubt that Moses and the Jews were joyously celebrating upon seeing the drowning deaths of their Egyptian pursuers. Their song, Shirat HaYam, explicitly thanks and praises Hashem for killing every last one of the Egyptian soldiers.

Purim is also clearly a holiday where we joyfully celebrate the death of Haman and the other Nazis who conspired to exterminate the Jewish people.

These "rabbis" who tell us that we cannot celebrate the deaths of our enemies are saying that when Adolf Hitler died, we could not rejoice over his death. How sick.

Exactly.  I have tried to say these points here but I guess I didn't get thru or was ignored.  You said this quite well.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Maybe you could look into why the sages decided not to do a full-hallel during Pesach and explain why they did so...

Thank you

MUMAN!  This is extremely frustrating, I have already addressed this point twice in this thread and it seems you just ignored me.

[muman613]

Oh come on Muman now your are just speaking gibberish or trying to render language meaningless.  The shir is a form of rejoicing as was the singing and dancing that went with it.  You can't honestly expect someone to take your statement above seriously, can you?  There is no logic there.

You obviously did not read the material which discusses, in depth, the reasons why some rejoicing is permitted. Basically, as I have repeated time and again, there is an obligation to rejoice when the hand of Hashem is revealed {as it was at the Yam}...

But you have not addressed the matter aside from trying to attack me and my understanding.

When did I ever say that the shir at the sea was not rejoicing? I pointed to two medrashes which say 1) That the angels asked why Hashem was destroying the Egyptians when they said "This one worships idols and that one worships idols"... And the 2nd which says that the angels were not permitted to sing at the sea because they did not suffer as the Jews did in Egypt...

Do not ascribe things to me which I did not say...

I also said that while we recite the Amidah which clearly curses the heretics, that very curse was written by Shmuel HaKatan who also repeated the Mishlei {Proverbs} that we should not rejoice in the downfall of our enemies. You never did address that except to state {incorrectly} that he was referring to only the personal enemy...

[muman613]

So KWRBT,

Please explain your understanding of when we can rejoice against our enemies... Do you believe that the sages had nothing to say about it? Or do you want to disregard what the sages have said?

Here are the Pasuks from Mishlei:

15. Wicked man, do not lurk by the dwelling of a righteous man; do not plunder his resting place.         טו.
16. For a righteous man can fall seven times and rise, but the wicked shall stumble upon evil.         טז.
17. When your enemy falls, do not rejoice, and when he stumbles, let your heart not exult,         יז.
18. lest the Lord see and be displeased, and turn His wrath away from him.         יח.
19. Do not compete with evildoers; do not envy the wicked         יט.
20. for there will be no future for an evil one; the lamp of the wicked will flicker.

Please provide a link which explains the position you take on these pasuks.. If you would like to continue this discussion...

See also:

http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5766/kisiso/oraltskykss66.htm

[muman613]

Here is another commentary which re-affirms my opinion..


http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5766/kisiso/oraltskykss66.htm

Opinion & Comment
After Your Enemy Falls . . .
An adaptation of the sichos of HaRav Chaim Dov Altusky, Shlita

In Pirkei Ovos (4:19), Shmuel Hakoton quotes the posuk, "When your enemy falls, do not be happy. And when he falters, your heart should not be filled with happiness: for the Ribono Shel Olom may look into your heart and see how happy you are over the fall of your enemy. And He will not like what He sees in your heart. And then Hashem will withdraw His anger from your enemy" (Mishlei 24:17,18).

With a surprising chiddush, Rashi explains that not only will Hashem take away His anger from the enemy but also, the enemy will be forgiven of all his sins. Remarkably, the Ribono Shel Olom reverses the verdict of someone who rightfully deserves punishment simply because people are happy over his demise. Furthermore, those who are happy over their enemy's downfall will incur the wrath of Hashem.

In his commentary on Pirkei Ovos, Rabbeinu Yonah adds an even bigger chiddush: This process occurs even when the enemy is a rosho, meaning that Hashem considers him a rosho because he is predominantly a baal aveiroh! He has very few mitzvos to counterbalance those aveiros and therefore receives his punishment.

Nonetheless, Shmuel Hakoton teaches us not to be elated over his suffering. Since, as Rabbeinu Yonah puts it, "A person should only be happy because of the kiddush Sheim Shomayim that is occurring for the benefit of the Name of Hashem Yisborach."

When a rosho suffers because of all the pain he has caused, this sanctifies the Name of the Ribono Shel Olom. Therefore, we should be happy because the rosho receives his due punishment. When people witness a rosho running rampant by treading upon the feelings, sensitivities, and lives of others, the rosho feels— and his victims believe—that he is master of his and their destiny. Then, when his punishment comes and he falls, this sanctifies Hashem's Name.

Therefore, it is very good if we are happy because of the kiddush Sheim Shomayim. Nevertheless, Rabbeinu Yonah warns us: Even a tzaddik should not experience personal happiness over the fall of the reshoim. Through the demise of reshoim, people see how Hashem has revealed His complete control over all events. Therefore, the focus of our joy is kvod Shomayim. We are happy because the world realizes that the Ribono Shel Olom is always in control. Hashem has brought about the enemy's demise.

We must not harbor a personal hatred for the rosho nor seek personal revenge. This is so even if this rosho has caused us great personal aggravation and suffering. Even if we have many good reasons to pray and seek his downfall, nevertheless if we will be happy because we hate him for what he did to us, to our families, and to others, then Rabbeinu Yonah says, "The Ribono Shel Olom will cleanse and forgive all this rosho's aveiros."


I will agree that it seems that the Rasho which is referred to is a personal enemy and not a national enemy...

[muman613]

Maybe we should discuss this in the Torah section. I feel that the thread has gone way off topic...

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Distortion of Torah is worse than murder

[muman613]

Distortion of Torah is worse than murder

And who is distorting Torah? Can't you contribute something which adds to the discussion?

If you have an issue with Pirkie Avot or Mishlie then please say so... Otherwise explain why you disregard what is written there... More succinctly, please provide the pasuks which exhort the Jews to rejoice when their enemies fall... That would really help your cause..

[Saxon Marauder]

I can only offer my two cents. I judge people on a personal and a meta-personal level. For example, let's use a theory. It is said that Gd will have war with Amalek for all generations, no? Yet, what happens if you come across an Amalekite whom you befriend and is willing to befriend you and even to see things your way? Do you judge the Amalekite for being an Amalekite or for being a good person?   Gd wanted to judge the Sodom and Gomorrah, but Abraham asked him something along the lines of "Shall not the Judge of the earth deal justice fairly?"

I don't know too many rabbinic opinions; I only read from Torah, mainly. Japan's disaster is truly a disaster, but the thing is this: is it a natural disaster, purely volcanic and tectonic activity, or an especial disaster sent by Gd as punishment? If this is so, in the latter case, what of the storms, floods, and blizzards in the U.S.?  

This is all that I can say.

[muman613]

I can only offer my two cents. I judge people on a personal and a meta-personal level. For example, let's use a theory. It is said that Gd will have war with Amalek for all generations, no? Yet, what happens if you come across an Amalekite whom you befriend and is willing to befriend you and even to see things your way? Do you judge the Amalekite for being an Amalekite or for being a good person?   Gd wanted to judge the Sodom and Gomorrah, but Abraham asked him something along the lines of "Shall not the Judge of the earth deal justice fairly?"

I don't know too many rabbinic opinions; I only read from Torah, mainly. Japan's disaster is truly a disaster, but there's the thing is this: is it a natural disaster, purely volcanic and tectonic activity, or an especial disaster sent by Gd as punishment? If this is so, in the latter case, what of the storms, floods, and blizzards in the U.S.?  

This is all that I can say.

Your opinion is interesting but not the Jewish one... Amalekites are not friends to Jews, their very nature is that they hate Jews, Judaism, and Hashem himself. They want to attack the Jews to prove that the Jews are not Hashems chosen people.

I do not think that using Amalek as an example is a good thing. Torah is clear that we must ERADICATE Amalek from the world. I sure hope I don't know any Amalekites..

Despite the fact that Abraham asked Hashem to spare Sdom, only because there may have been 50,40,30,20,10 righteous people in the town. Abraham did not want to spare the wicked of Sdom, only the righteous, but because of the merit of the righteous the city may have been spared. But Hashem made his glory known when he smote Sdom...