Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
the "holy spirit"
edu:
The first 3 words of Tehillim/psalms 139:7 are אנא אלך מרוחך
Radak and Ibn Ezra explain a person can not go anywhere if the ruach of G-d doesn't take him there. So the psalmist asks a rhetorical question, how is it possible for me to go away from your ruach.
In the view of Metzudat Dovid, he understands the words as how can I hide (or go away) from your ruach of anger. In his view, ruach here is sort of a poetic description of G-d's strong displeasure and an intention to cause damage.
Ruach in Hebrew usually means wind or spirit. I don't have the time to do the research if it has other connotations as well
Zenith:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on April 10, 2011, 02:41:46 AM ---And the Jewish term ruach hakodesh is not translated as "holy spirit," for good reason.
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Really?
--- Quote from: Psalm 51.13 --- Do not cast me away from before You, and do not take Your holy spirit from me.
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(http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16272)
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--- Quote from: muman613 ---Do you mean Ruach HaKodesh?
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My guess is, he probably didn't. There is a catholic doctrine that speaks about a "holy spirit" which is not something we believe in.
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well, that's quite the subject (though I'm not very sure how the catholics understand it): I want to know how you understand it, and the verses that support your view.
I'm also interested to know what you understand of:
1. spirit;
2. divine inspiration;
3. the fact that the Tanakh is inspired by G-d.
muman613, know that I've read only what you've quoted there. Lately, a headache strikes me when someone sends me a very large text to read, sorry. The same apologies for edu as well, as I still did not watch those youtube videos about the noachide laws. Please, don't ever send me links to videos/audios again. And if it is possible, please try concise answers (not links to texts of the size of a novel).
Zenith:
--- Quote from: edu on April 10, 2011, 04:04:46 AM ---The first 3 words of Tehillim/psalms 139:7 are אנא אלך מרוחך
Radak and Ibn Ezra explain a person can not go anywhere if the ruach of G-d doesn't take him there. So the psalmist asks a rhetorical question, how is it possible for me to go away from your ruach.
--- End quote ---
I don't know who Radak and Ibn Ezra are, but I'll tell you how I understand this verse:
--- Quote from: Psalm 139.7-8 ---7. Where shall I go from Your spirit, and where shall I flee from Your presence?
8. If I ascend to the heavens, there You are, and if I make my bed in the grave, behold, You are there.
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the first sentence (about "Your Spirit") is the same thing as the second (about "Your presence"). And "Your presence"/"Your Spirit" = "You are there" (G-d is there). The whole psalm talks about G-d (even here, where it's said about His Spirit/His presence. It doesn't say "where shall I go from your wrath" or something. It says, where I should go from You.
--- Quote ---In the view of Metzudat Dovid, he understands the words as how can I hide (or go away) from your ruach of anger.
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I don't remember to have ever read in the Tanakh "G-d's spirit of wrath". Please give me a verse if you know it. I know that in the Tanakh only men are described with spirits of X.
The meaning of "spirit" sounds pretty clear here:
--- Quote from: 1 Kings 22.21-23 ---21. And a certain spirit came forth and stood before the Lord and said, 'I will entice him,' and the Lord said to him 'How?'
22. And he said, 'I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And He said, 'You will entice and you will prevail. Go forth and do so.'
23. And now, behold the Lord has placed a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, whereas the Lord spoke evil concerning you."
--- End quote ---
So when it is written in the Tanakh that G-d puts a spirit in a man (spirit of fear, lying, etc.), it literally means "spirit", not "a poetic description of ... strong displeasure and an intention". At least this is how I clearly see. That's also the reason I asked you what you understand of "spirit".
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
In response to your quote of chabad translation of a verse in psalms it is not quite relevant to what I was trying to say. Catholics have a theological doctrine where ther is an entity called "the holy spirit" which is an actual thing. The term ruah hakodesh comes up quite frequently in rabbinic parlance but it never refers to any entity - instead, it refers to a spirit or inspiration within a person when they said such and such. I don't take the concept literally, personally. But some do look at that more literally and view it as a divine inspiration behind the words.
muman613:
Zenith,
I will try once again to explain to you these Jewish concepts. But often it seems to me you are trying to approach this from a very non-Jewish, and even from a Christian perspective. In that case you will absolutely not be able to make sense of what we write concerning the Ruach HaKodesh and the Shekinah.
First, you are aware that Jews believe that G-d, Hashem our L-rd, is not corporeal, that Hashem has no body, no manifestation in this world. Hashem is eternal, infinite, and we are not able to even begin to understand what Hashem 'Is'. But we can understand him through the way he acts in this world. We are able to see the results of his actions and we relate to him through these actions. When we say that 'Hashem is angry' or 'Hashem is pleased' we understand that we are only talking about how we perceive our relationship with him. We call this Anthropomorphism, the attribution of human characteristics to something which is not human. The Torah is replete with statements like "Hashems strong arm" and "Hashem Spoke" when we know that Hashem has no Arm, and he has no mouth to speak. Obviously these anthropomorphisms must be understood in a way that is cognizant of the fact that Hashem has no body, no corporeality.
Also understand that when the word 'Ruach' is used it is really referring to a force like a 'wind'. This 'wind' is similar to the comparison of the soul to fire. The story of Genesis states that Hashem blew the spirit of life into the man. It is also interesting to note that the first time the word Ruach is used is in the very beginning of Genesis/Beresheit..
--- Quote ---ב. וְהָאָרֶץ הָיְתָה תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ וְחֹשֶׁךְ עַל פְּנֵי תְהוֹם וְרוּחַ אֱ־לֹהִים מְרַחֶפֶת עַל פְּנֵי הַמָּיִם:
2. Now the earth was astonishingly empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the spirit of G-d was hovering over the face of the water.
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It should be noted that there are five parts of the soul according to Jewish belief...
Nefesh - Ruach - Neshama - Chaya - Yechida -
See http://www.aish.com/sp/k/48954266.html
See also
--- Quote ---http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5763/bamidbar.html
As the breath leaves the mouth, so-to-speak, and moves downward, it becomes like a wind, a ruach, creating the second lowest level of soul called "Ruach." Indeed, the Kabbalists compare this part of the system to that of a glass-blower, who fills his mouth with air before blowing into a long tube in order to fill the molten glass at the end of the tube with air. After the air leaves his mouth, it becomes a ruach in the tube itself, making this level of soul a transitional level between Neshamah above it, and the Nefesh below it.
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I have covered a lot in a short time. I hope that you can understand that we have no belief that there is a thing called a 'Holy Spirit' which exists in this world. Hashem is incorporeal and has no substance, no manifestation in this world. We can only relate to him through his actions, through natural and supernatural events, and our experiences.
References:
--- Quote ---http://www.jewishideas.org/articles/expanding-our-religious-vocabulary
Maimonides expressed criticism of biblical imagery eloquently and at great length in the Guide of the Perplexed and concisely in his Mishne Torah. He was so successful in “cleansing Judaism of vestiges of idolatry” that his approach is viewed by many as the final word on this topic. Maimonides’ interpretation of all anthropomorphic expressions as metaphoric is so obvious to some, that the portion of the Guide that deals with this issue seems to be superfluous, even boring. Yet even one with the most rudimentary knowledge of Jewish Thought after Maimonides will understand that although Maimonides' work was extremely influential, it must be viewed as an opening remark in a multi-generational debate. One important focal point is haRav Shneur Zalman of Ladi’s criticism of the concept of “negative appellations.” He states that even this approach smacks of “reverse anthropomorphism” since G-d is viewed as the negative of our selves. The discussion has become especially vibrant in the last hundred years. From haRav Kook to Emanuel Levinas, thinkers have dealt with the issue of theological language in very compelling ways. The criticism of such language by Wittgenstein created a great wake of reactions even in the Torah world. Professor Yeshayahu Leibovitz and haRav Professor Eliezar Goldman became exponents of extreme interpretations of Maimonides’ approach.
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--- Quote ---http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-2573/the-holy-spirit/
The Holy Spirit
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Question: Why does the Jewish faith not believe in the Holy Spirit?
Answer: Judaism does believe that G-d’s Spirit (or Presence) is Holy. Judaism does not, however, believe in a separate manifestation of G-d referred to as the “Holy Spirit”.
The words “Ruach HaKodesh” (i.e. “The Holy Spirit”) never appear in the Hebrew Scriptures.
There are three times in the Scriptures where there is mention, however, of G-d’s Holy Spirit:
Psalm 51:13 – Ruach Kadshecha – Your holy spirit;
Isaiah 63:10 – Ruach Kadsho – His holy spirit;
Isaiah 63:11 – Ruach Kadsho – His holy spirit
There are only these three occurrences of the term “Holy Spirit”—hardly enough to create a doctrine, and definitely not indicating anything that we did not already understand about G-d. Because all three of these passages are lacking the definite article (i.e. the word “the”), the term in those three instances is understood to simply refer to G-d’s Spirit being Holy.
In later Jewish literature, the “Holy Spirit” is connected to a spirit of Prophecy. But either way, there is no reason to make the assumption that, somehow, this Holy spirit of G-d is a separate entity. There is no support for the concept of the trinity in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Respectfully,
Rabbi Azriel Schreiber
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--- Quote ---http://www.inner.org/jewhome/jewhome5.htm
The five levels of the soul are called nefesh, ruach, neshama, chaya, yechida. The yechida reflects itself in the nefesh. This is revealed in the relation between Mashiach and King David. Each of the five levels of the soul correspond to a general soul root. The Arizal explains that the general soul root of the nefesh in all of Am Yisrael is King David. The ruach is the prophet, Elijah. The neshama, which is the mind, mochin d'Imma, is Moses, as stated in the Gemorah that Moses merited binah. The chaya corresponds to the ideal and primordial, blissful state of Adam and Eve before the sin. Had Adam stood that trial successfully, he would have risen to the level of yechida. Since he failed the trial he fell from all the levels of Olam ha'Atzilut. The highest level, yechida, is that of Mashiach, may he become revealed speedily in our days.
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--- Quote ---http://www.aish.com/jl/sp/bas/48942091.html
Three Parts
The soul consists of three parts which are called by the Hebrew names, nefesh, ruach and neshama. The word neshama is a cognate of nesheema, which means literally "breath." Ruach means "wind." Nefesh comes from the root nafash, meaning "rest," as in the verse, "On the seventh day, [God] ceased work and rested (nafash)." (Exodus 31:17).
God's exhaling a soul can be compared to a glassblower forming a vessel. The breath (neshama) first leaves his lips, travels as a wind (ruach) and finally comes to rest (nefesh) in the vessel. Of these three levels of the soul, neshama is therefore the highest and closes to God, while nefesh is that aspect of the soul residing in the body. Ruach stands between the two, binding man to his spiritual Source. It is for this reason that Divine Inspiration is called Ruach HaKodesh in Hebrew.
The neshama is affected only by thought, the ruach by speech, and the nefesh by action.
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