Is a righteous gentile saved?

[OdKahaneChai]

Wasn't Moses's wife Zipporah and father-in-law Yitro, both gentiles, also present at Sinai?   

I'm pretty sure they both converted (however that was done back then), but then Yitro eventually went back to his people.  But I could be wrong.

[Sarah]

So therefore I suppose the Ten Commandments are bunch of malarky !!

Someone better tell Neo-Nazi Benedict !

I'm giving you a warning, ScotcH. Please don't try my patience today.

The Ten Commandments were given to the Jewish people (not the gentiles) on Mt. Sinai and are the basis of the 613 commandments we follow in the Torah.

I don't mean to arise any offensiveness at all but could it be said that the Ten Commandments were given to the Jewish people but as a guidance for the whole of humanity because surely they should convince people of the truth?

[Lubab]

Wasn't Moses's wife Zipporah and father-in-law Yitro, both gentiles, also present at Sinai?   

I'm pretty sure they both converted (however that was done back then), but then Yitro eventually went back to his people.  But I could be wrong.

Yes. They converted. And Yisro went back to convert his own people to Judaism too.
It was pretty easy to convert to Judaism before the giving of the Torah. Not so now.

[Lubab]

So therefore I suppose the Ten Commandments are bunch of malarky !!

Someone better tell Neo-Nazi Benedict !

I'm giving you a warning, ScotcH. Please don't try my patience today.

The Ten Commandments were given to the Jewish people (not the gentiles) on Mt. Sinai and are the basis of the 613 commandments we follow in the Torah.

I don't mean to arise any offensiveness at all but could it be said that the Ten Commandments were given to the Jewish people but as a guidance for the whole of humanity because surely they should convince people of the truth?

The truth is that the 10 commandments were given for the Jews and the 7 Noahide laws were given for the rest of humanity.
If the gentiles start doing the job of the Jews or the Jews start doing the jobs of the gentiles, then there would be a lack of truth.


With that said, gentiles who are observant in their 7 can start to take on some of the 613 commandments (with a few exceptions), but this is for the purpose of receiving reward, but is not obligatory.

[Sarah]

Yes, i just realised that because they are commandments and in affect, rules they are directed towards the Jews.

Is the Talmud different from the Torah sent down on the tablets, was it the same thing just orally or more teachings?

Lubab you are the most fantastic religious moderator ever! I have learnt and understood so much from your answers, thank you so much and i hope your knowledge grants you many blessings!

[Lubab]

Yes, i just realised that because they are commandments and in affect, rules they are directed towards the Jews.

Is the Talmud different from the Torah sent down on the tablets, was it the same thing just orally or more teachings?

Lubab you are the most fantastic religious moderator ever! I have learnt and understood so much from your answers, thank you so much and i hope your knowledge grants you many blessings!

Well, no the Talmud is not different.

It says in the Rabbinic commentaries that every detail of Judaism is included in those 10 commandments. (It even says that all 613 commandments are included in the first two commandments!) Those 10 are the general framework and the 613 give you the details.

All the knowledge of the Talmud was given on Sinai along with those 10 commandments to Moses. That knowledge was not a new thing that started when the Talmud was written down. That knowledge of the details of how to put the Torah into practice was handed down in an oral chain for 40 generations by the greatest Jewish leaders and scholars. Eventually those teachings were written down and that's why we have the written Talmud.

But really it's all only ONE Torah. You can't have the oral Torah without the written and you can't have the written Torah without the oral commentary. It's all the same thing, only differnet parts were handed down to us different ways. There are specifics and generalities, but it's all one Torah.

Thank you for your kind words. I'm glad to help in any way I can. And "Amein" to that blessing!

[HECKLER]

There is this guy named Bear Grylls, from England, who has a show on Discovery channel, called "Man VS. Wild", where he just LOVES eating carcasses of dead animals, and tearing out and eating the backs of fish while the fish is alive and kicking, even though he even has the ability to make fire most of the time AND to kill the fish first... None of this is allowed, right?

[Hail Columbia]

There is this guy named Bear Grylls, from England, who has a show on Discovery channel, called "Man VS. Wild", where he just LOVES eating carcasses of dead animals, and tearing out and eating the backs of fish while the fish is alive and kicking, even though he even has the ability to make fire most of the time AND to kill the fish first... None of this is allowed, right?

No, you can't eat flesh torn from a living animal.

[Lubab]

There is this guy named Bear Grylls, from England, who has a show on Discovery channel, called "Man VS. Wild", where he just LOVES eating carcasses of dead animals, and tearing out and eating the backs of fish while the fish is alive and kicking, even though he even has the ability to make fire most of the time AND to kill the fish first... None of this is allowed, right?

No, you can't eat flesh torn from a living animal.

Right.

[Rev_Matthew]

you don't know if someone is righteous in these blogs.........you have to take my word for it.
as for Noah's 7 laws except for the fact that i haven't been able to follow the 7th law (setting up a courtroom to follow the other 6 laws) i follow the rest.
I also attempt and for the most part I'm successful in keeping the 7 deadly sins at bay, and of course
gods first ten commandments. (I know it's a bit more complex then ten for the Jewish Faith)
So according to Hebrew text I am righteous, and Ususaly i don't talk about my being righteous because that aint humble, but you asked, so i answered.
:-)

Rev Mathew

[mosquewatch]

Rev_Matthew

Are you a Zionist?

Jeff

[decimos]

my understanding is a gentile would be "saved"if the 7 laws were observed,

The Rambam in Hilchos Melachim 8:11, writes that all Benei Noach who accept upon themselves the Seven Mitzvos and are careful to keep them and are precise in their observance are termed 'Chasidei Umos ha'Olam'  ('the Pious Ones of the Nations') and they merit a share in the World to Come.

[Shlomo]

my understanding is a gentile would be "saved"if the 7 laws were observed,

The Rambam in Hilchos Melachim 8:11, writes that all Benei Noach who accept upon themselves the Seven Mitzvos and are careful to keep them and are precise in their observance are termed 'Chasidei Umos ha'Olam'  ('the Pious Ones of the Nations') and they merit a share in the World to Come.

Correct.

[Mstislav]

I should add that the Torah does give some examples of ways we could have a glimpse into what the next world is like. It says Torah learning is "Mein Olam Haba" a glimpse of the world to come. And it also says that Shabbos is also compared to the next world in our prayers we say after we eat. Physical suffering is like 1/60 (I beleive) of what we call hell.

(NOTE: not true for gentiles, gentiles are not allowed to keep the sabbath).

What if a gentile keeps the Sabbath in the same way a Jew does anyway? Would that gentile be in serious trouble with HaShem?

[newman]

What if a gentile keeps the Sabbath in the same way a Jew does anyway? Would that gentile be in serious trouble with HaShem?

I can't speak for Him, but Torah tells us that G_d intended the Jews to be a nation of priests and stand apart from the other nations. If gentiles go around impersonating Jews it undermines His plan.

Example: What would the clergy say about catholic lay-persons dressing as priests & nuns and living as they do?......... Not good, right?

[decimos]

The rabbis tell us the Sabbath day is a miniature picture of olam habah (the age to come) when Messiah will be king and there will never again be inequity or want. The Sabbath is also how we know we are worshipping the G-d of Creation, because He created for six days and rested on Shabbat (the seventh day). In Judaism, we are counted as sons when we do what the father does.
but also in support of Gentiles..Isaiah also says that Gentiles must keep all 613 laws of the Mosaic Covenant not just the Sabbath.

ps.this is research i have done,on my journey as it were.

[Mstislav]

The rabbis tell us the Sabbath day is a miniature picture of olam habah (the age to come) when Messiah will be king and there will never again be inequity or want. The Sabbath is also how we know we are worshipping the G-d of Creation, because He created for six days and rested on Shabbat (the seventh day). In Judaism, we are counted as sons when we do what the father does.
but also in support of Gentiles..Isaiah also says that Gentiles must keep all 613 laws of the Mosaic Covenant not just the Sabbath.

ps.this is research i have done,on my journey as it were.

So gentiles can follow the 613 mitzvot - give or take a few - and there would be no problems with that?

[newman]

The rabbis tell us the Sabbath day is a miniature picture of olam habah (the age to come) when Messiah will be king and there will never again be inequity or want. The Sabbath is also how we know we are worshipping the G-d of Creation, because He created for six days and rested on Shabbat (the seventh day). In Judaism, we are counted as sons when we do what the father does.
but also in support of Gentiles..Isaiah also says that Gentiles must keep all 613 laws of the Mosaic Covenant not just the Sabbath.

ps.this is research i have done,on my journey as it were.

So gentiles can follow the 613 mitzvot - give or take a few - and there would be no problems with that?

All except the ones that would entail impersonating Jews such as tzit tzit, peyott, the same strict level of Shabbat observance etc.

Anything beyond the mandatory 7 Laws of Noah are optional.

[MarZutra]

If you followed the Mitzvot ha Moshe you'd be Jewish.  The Torah basically states to love thy neighbor and outlines the basic moral laws that are to be followed by humanity to produce a peaceful coexistance.  The Jew follows the 10: 613 mitzvot and the Gentile those outlined by Noach.  Being saved is in Hashem's hands as the Torah states I believe in Isaiah 43:11. 

These basic laws for Jew and Gentile (because a Gentile can become a Jew if they so wish) there is no dogmas like one MUST accept any certain Prophet or messiah to be "saved" just try to be a good person via living by the Torah's moral laws.  When the Moshiach comes everyone on Earth will know, it will not be an isolated occurance but something witnessed by all menkind...

Lubab can explain this further....

[decimos]

If you followed the Mitzvot ha Moshe you'd be Jewish.  The Torah basically states to love thy neighbor and outlines the basic moral laws that are to be followed by humanity to produce a peaceful coexistance.  The Jew follows the 10: 613 mitzvot and the Gentile those outlined by Noach.  Being saved is in Hashem's hands as the Torah states I believe in Isaiah 43:11. 

These basic laws for Jew and Gentile (because a Gentile can become a Jew if they so wish) there is no dogmas like one MUST accept any certain Prophet or messiah to be "saved" just try to be a good person via living by the Torah's moral laws.  When the Moshiach comes everyone on Earth will know, it will not be an isolated occurance but something witnessed by all menkind...

Lubab can explain this further....

yes,in my eyes the Jews were passed the laws,God chose you, your duty is clear.

[MarZutra]

Well your eyes are clear.  According to the Torah and the realities on the ground the Jewish people were chosen at Sinai from all the other nations to accept the immense responsibility of the Torah way/laws.  The fact that this occurred in front of a multitude of people is the validation of HaShem and Judaism itself unlike the single or the few that "witnessed" Mohammed to validate the murderous cult of Islam.  There is no obligation for any gentile to study Torah but only to live by the basic moral laws of Noah.  Jews on the other hand are obligated to study Torah and learn to live and be Jewish.

Perhaps Lubab can clearify that for me.  I'm still a learning Jew...lol

[decimos]

while it is clear that Gentiles cannot understand the "YOKE" of the Talmud or Torah,it is clear that any Gentile may follow any mitzvah to become closer to God,and still be a Gentile.as Priests of the nations of God it is encumbant on Jews to teach us gods will ----perhaps not a total observence in the jewish sense but volantary understanding that this will bring you closer to god.

[newman]

while it is clear that Gentiles cannot understand the "YOKE" of the Talmud or Torah,it is clear that any Gentile may follow any mitzvah to become closer to G-d,and still be a Gentile.as Priests of the nations of G-d it is encumbant on Jews to teach us gods will ----perhaps not a total observence in the jewish sense but volantary understanding that this will bring you closer to G-d.

That's how it was explained to me. The 7 Laws of Noah are the mandatory minimum. All the other 613 are optional EXCEPT those which are strictly for Jews only such as the wearing of Teffelin, Tzit Tzit etc. Those extra laws we take on get us extra blessings.

It's like the minimum obligation of a man is to attend school 'til 16, get a basic job and pay his way. If he does extra, like attending college, works overtime, saves and invests, he has a better life than if he just did the minimum.

We can have Saturday off, too. We just can't not turn lights on and not cook or impersonate Jews in any way.

[Lubab]

while it is clear that Gentiles cannot understand the "YOKE" of the Talmud or Torah,it is clear that any Gentile may follow any mitzvah to become closer to G-d,and still be a Gentile.as Priests of the nations of G-d it is encumbant on Jews to teach us gods will ----perhaps not a total observence in the jewish sense but volantary understanding that this will bring you closer to G-d.

To answer a previous question as well gentiles are stictly forbidden from keeping the Sabbath the way that Jews do. The penalty for doing this is death  .

Other than that gentiles can take on most other Mitvot (even Shabbat if they do it in another way) for the purpose of gaining reward, but not as fulfillment of an obligation.

Gentiles can even understand the secrets of the Torah, by the way, if they connect themselves to a learned Jew!

[decimos]

sorry i made a typo,should read. JUST NOT the sabbeth