Judgment Day 5/21/11?

[muman613]

I thought you just argued that they don't use statistical analyses?

 

I misunderstood what you where saying. The computer searches for word sequences not based on statistical analysis, but the analysis is done in order to determine the probability that this sequence would occur, those which are less probable occurances indicate more that the code is correct than those which are statistically probable.

But I don't have a problem with that method.

[muman613]

Another thing you have not heard me say, but I have said all along, is that Torah codes are not intended to predict that events will happen. Every site which I have read always says that these codes are used to look for clues in events which have already happened... So the issue to me has nothing to do with predicting the future events.

[muman613]

KWRBT,

Simply stated there is reason in Jewish belief to believe that everything, even minute details, are somehow found in the Torah... We can disagree on the way that this can be interpreted.

Answer me this: Why did the sages who commented on Purim look for Haman in the Torah? Is it not because of the principle that everything is in the Torah. There are other examples of this concept from the Talmud also.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I misunderstood what you where saying.

Or perhaps you argued without first verifying whether what I was saying was correct, but then afterwards you found out that it was correct?    But if you don't know whether something I said is true, how can you argue with it in that case without first finding out for yourself for sure if it's true or not?   This may be what is leading to many of our disagreements?

[muman613]

Or perhaps you argued without first verifying whether what I was saying was correct, but then afterwards you found out that it was correct?    But if you don't know whether something I said is true, how can you argue with it in that case without first finding out for yourself for sure if it's true or not?   This may be what is leading to many of our disagreements?

I totally understand what you are saying. I have no problem that some people do not have any belief in this. I too was skeptical for a long time, but I found myself seeing that there may be something to it. If everything is to be found in the Torah and this method is used to reveal hidden truths, then there may be something to it.

But to summarize this doomsday prophecy... I don't put any belief in it. I have not heard any Rabbis mention it. And as usually I don't believe we can use Torah codes to predict things. One very central belief of Jews is that through Teshuva we can change the decree. Thus anything supposedly 'pre-destined' just may not occur..

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

Simply stated there is reason in Jewish belief to believe that everything, even minute details, are somehow found in the Torah... We can disagree on the way that this can be interpreted.  

But I do not agree with that.   I think you are mistaken.

Answer me this: Why did the sages who commented on Purim look for Haman in the Torah?

The explanation is complicated but it has to do with the politics of accepting the megillat Esther into the Tanakh!   There was disagreement in the Sanhedrin over whether it could be canonized like other books were already at that point.  The Talmud reports this.   And finding a pasuk to give an indication of this tremendous event in Jewish history was required by some of the sages as a prerequisite for including the book into the Tanakh.    There is more to it, but those are some of the basics and that's a simple understanding of the discussion there, and as you can see, that is quite different from how you interpreted the fact that they were looking for a pasuk that refers to haman.

Rabbi Bar Hayim expands on this discussion to relate to current day phenomenon of rabbinical paralysis and how a similar sentiment against change of any kind was sort of underlying the argument that took place in the Sanhedrin over Megillat Esther.

Btw, from what I remember it was not about finding haman in the Torah, but really they were "trying to find" a pasuk that had enough numbers of allusions to wiping out amalek so as to include reference to the purim story (another manifestation of amalek later in history).

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

But I do not agree with that.   I think you are mistaken.

The explanation is complicated but it has to do with the politics of accepting the megillat Esther into the Tanakh!   There was disagreement in the Sanhedrin over whether it could be canonized like other books were already at that point.  The Talmud reports this.   And finding a pasuk to give an indication of this tremendous event in Jewish history was required by some of the sages as a prerequisite for including the book into the Tanakh.    There is more to it, but those are some of the basics and that's a simple understanding of the discussion there, and as you can see, that is quite different from how you interpreted the fact that they were looking for a pasuk that refers to haman.

Rabbi Bar Hayim expands on this discussion to relate to current day phenomenon of rabbinical paralysis and how a similar sentiment against change of any kind was sort of underlying the argument that took place in the Sanhedrin over Megillat Esther.

Btw, from what I remember it was not about finding haman in the Torah, but really they were "trying to find" a pasuk that had enough numbers of allusions to wiping out amalek so as to include reference to the purim story (another manifestation of amalek later in history).

Actually, it's kind of funny because this whole example refutes what you were claiming.  At one point, one side of the argument (probably the majority of sages, who were against canonizing Esther in the beginning) were prepared to accept that the Purim story had NO SOURCE in Torah, and on the basis of this they would exclude it from canonization.  It seems also that the minority opinion among the sages of the Great Assembly wanted to canonize it as Esther had instructed, without a verse to support it.    Then, in the end, as the simple reading of this event goes, they found a verse to support it (or a reading of a verse), and then on that basis finally allowed it to be canonized (not sure if this was a later generation, if sentiment had changed, etc.  but that's the basic idea).   So not only was it the case that the sages doubted some minor event had a source or hint to it in Torah, they actually doubted that an event as immense and important in Jewish history as the Purim story was even alluded to in the Torah.   Only after they "found a way" to allude to this event in the text did they concede that it could be canonized.   If what you - and the "Torah Codes" - are claiming is true, that every single event in history (even little things with little or no relevance to Jewish history)  should be found in Torah, then there never should have been any opposition whatsoever to canonizing Esther because of course it's alluded to like everything else.   Yet, we have this sugiya in the Talmud where that was not the case.

So not only do I disagree with your premise, but so did all the Men of the Great Assembly.  I feel I'm in good company.

[muman613]

You do not answer the question. There is a principle, as stated in Pirkie Avot, that the Torah contains hints at everything which happens in creation. This is what the sages are talking about concerning looking for Haman in the Torah. I will not argue with you as you seem to have a problem with this. But I continue to assert that there is good reason to believe that the Torah contains everything in creation.

[muman613]

Chabad has this about Torah Codes:


http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/228,2094173/What-should-I-think-of-the-Bible-Codes.html#articlepage
What should I think of the "Bible Codes"?
by Rabbi Eli Wolf

Bible codes are quite a fascinating discovery, in which various historical episodes, facts and personalities can be found hidden within the very letters of the Bible. The primary method, by which, purportedly, meaningful messages have been extracted, is via a method known as ELS (equidistant letter sequences) – or simply put: one chooses a starting point and a skip number. Then, beginning at the starting point, one selects letters from the text at equal spacing as given by the skip number, and the result will be the Bible code.

Of the many codes found, some of the most famous include the assassination of former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin; the holocaust; the Gulf War; the existence of certain diseases such as AIDS and George W Bush being elected to presidency in 2004.

This breakthrough is becoming so widespread, that special software is being designed to ease the difficulty involved in extracting these complex codes.

So, for a Jew in today’s world, what is an appropriate reaction to this new finding? Is this perhaps a genuine example of scientific evidence endorsing the truths of our faith?

The concept of extracting pieces of information from the letters of the Bible has its origins within the writings of several great Rabbis in Jewish history. The Zohar states1 that G-d used Torah as a blueprint to create the world. Nachmanides was of the opinion that every name, as well as every event to occur throughout history, can be found within the letters of the Torah Portion, Haazinu.2   The twelfth century Talmudist and Kabbalist, Rabbi Eliezer Rokeach, enumerated3   73 methods of understanding and interpreting the letters of the Torah. Amongst them is “the method of skipping”.4 The Vilna Gaon often encouraged his followers by finding their names hidden within letters of the Torah.

    G-d used Torah as a blueprint to create the world

Similarly, the concept of Gematriah has been used in many classical texts and commentaries throughout the ages.5

To appreciate the issue of Bible codes, there are three points that need consideration:

   1. The art of deciphering and extracting codes from the Bible wasn’t given to anyone who desired it. Great skills, wisdom and holiness are required when interpreting the words of the Bible. Many authorities spoke unkindly6 of those whom made their own discovery in the Bible and then formed their own explanations based upon it. The Sages of the Talmud, who made various extrapolations from the Bible text, were exceptionally holy men of enormous insight and humility. They possessed a “mesoret” – (tradition from Sinai), handed down through the generations, which guided their studies.
      So, whilst it is an intrinsic Jewish belief that the Torah alludes to everything in our world, only people of great stature are capable of deciphering the codes.
   2. We need to understand how much truth lies within the messages of the codes.
      The story is told of a man who asked a renowned Chassidic Rebbe where his name could be found in the Torah. The man was delighted to find out that the very words which hinted to his name were words of praise and good fortune. Upon seeing the glee in the man’s eyes, the Rebbe warned him: “It is possible to have a name alluded to in a context regarding success and good luck. However, you must practice great caution not to become too secure in your future successes, lest you become sluggish in your service to G-d. Since all of life is based upon man’s choices, if need be (G-d forbid), another appearance of your name could be found in a context of bad luck and adversity.
      In other words, no extrapolated message can serve as a guaranteed prediction. G-d always reserves the right to act as He wishes, normally befitting the demeanor of each person.
   3. When speaking about proving one’s beliefs, it is crucial to bear in mind the vital difference between an essential proof, and suggestive evidence.

Imagine a father who discovers the whereabouts of his long-lost child, in an orphanage in some distant town. What would be required of the father in order to prove to the child that he is his father? Let’s say he produces an old family portrait, and displays how both his and the child’s smiles bear resemblance to each other. Obviously, that wouldn’t be sufficient, since the child could probably find tens of other men with smiles akin to his. Only by producing DNA samples, or perhaps a video of the child’s birth, could the father succeed in persuading the child that he is the true father.

However, when another child who experiences an occasional fleeting doubt about his parents, receives a compliment about his smile being akin to his father’s smile, it makes him more assured, more confident than he already is. It provides his belief in his parents with the extra boost it needs.

    Our recognition of the Bible stems from a far greater and deeper source

We can understand from this example a key principle in regards to any of our beliefs. Any proof that serves merely as peripheral and refutable evidence, cannot convince someone into a particular belief, nor can it serve as a foundation for any belief system. In order to acquire a certain belief, one needs to become privy with the very the essence of what he believes in.

So, for a Jew who already believes sincerely in the truth of the Bible, the response to the discovery of Bible codes should be one of fascination. Isn’t it wonderful to see that the very truths that we believe in are being confirmed and demonstrated by so many people outside of our religion!
 
But in no way does this discovery authenticate our belief. For us, it is like a bonus. If, hypothetically, some great prophet suddenly appears and invalidates the Bible-codes, it will not diminish our belief in even the slightest way. Our recognition of the Bible stems from a far greater and deeper source.

[Ed. note: It should be noted that bible code scholars only find things after they already happened. They don’t make any predictions. Needless to say, it can’t be used to predict anything, and definitely not to change a Torah law. For even an authentic prophet could not change Torah law, much less so a computer or math system].

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You do not answer the question. There is a principle, as stated in Pirkie Avot, that the Torah contains hints at everything which happens in creation. This is what the sages are talking about concerning looking for Haman in the Torah. I will not argue with you as you seem to have a problem with this. But I continue to assert that there is good reason to believe that the Torah contains everything in creation.

LOL so in other words you think all of the sages of the Great Assembly did not know that statement in Pirkei Avot and they all misinterpreted it?   Perhaps it is YOU who is misinterpreting it, Muman.   Ever consider that?

Personally, I think you have a very liberal/general and incorrect interpretation of the phrase "all is in it," and you also misunderstand entirely what hashkafic statements of this nature all throughout Pirkei Avot actually signify.   If we assume your interpretation of that statement for the sake of example (even tho I think it's incorrect), still perhaps the rest of the chachamim did not agree with ben bag bag.  And in that case, the fact that Aish's supposed "Torah Codes" were disproven tends to support those with the contrary view.  

But really, that statement in Pirkei Avot does not imply to me what you are claiming, and obviously I cited an entire Talmudic sugiya which directly contradicts what you are trying to interpret from it.

And if "all is in it" in the context of what ben bag bag said, REALLY means what you say it means, tell me why the rabbinic scholars have not cured cancer and why it was not rabbinic scholars who invented the atom bomb, and why we don't find modern medicine in the Torah.

[muman613]

LOL so in other words you think all of the sages of the Great Assembly did not know that statement in Pirkei Avot and they all misinterpreted it?   Perhaps it is YOU who is misinterpreting it, Muman.   Ever consider that?

Personally, I think you have a very liberal/general and incorrect interpretation of the phrase "all is in it," and you also misunderstand entirely what hashkafic statements of this nature all throughout Pirkei Avot actually signify.   If we assume your interpretation of that statement for the sake of example (even tho I think it's incorrect), still perhaps the rest of the chachamim did not agree with ben bag bag.  And in that case, the fact that Aish's supposed "Torah Codes" were disproven tends to support those with the contrary view.  

But really, that statement in Pirkei Avot does not imply to me what you are claiming, and obviously I cited an entire Talmudic sugiya which directly contradicts what you are trying to interpret from it.

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but I have also brought several sources, which all seem to support the concept that the Torah contains hints at everything in creation. Why you argue about it is odd, but it is your right to argue about anything you want.

But the interpretation of Pirkie Avot is not my own, it has been written about by several Rabbis as one of the sources for learning that everything is in the Torah.

http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5763/bo.html

This is what the Midrash says:

When G-d made creation, He looked into the Torah [as an architect does a blueprint]. (Bereishis Rabbah 1:2)

Ben Bag Bag said, "Turn it over, turn it over, for everything is within it [Torah] . . . (Pirkei Avos 5:26)

Thus, EVERYTHING is within it, INCLUDING us, and even those yet to be born. And, if you know how, as the Vilna Gaon did, you can find out exactly where your life is hinted to within the Torah, and what your purpose is on this earth in this lifetime.

That is how the Torah can speak to us in every generation, for its values are eternal and its morals always applicable. Nothing ever really changes in history - only the externals undergo transformations from generation to generation.

Therefore, redemption from Egypt is applicable to every Jew in every generation. After all, redemption of the Jew is not about space and time, but about the relationship between G-d and His people, even down to the level of the individual. This is what G-d Himself intimated when He told Moshe:

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but I have also brought several sources, which all seem to support the concept that the Torah contains hints at everything in creation. Why you argue about it is odd, but it is your right to argue about anything you want.

But the interpretation of Pirkie Avot is not my own, it has been written about by several Rabbis as one of the sources for learning that everything is in the Torah.

http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5763/bo.html

I don't believe you brought any sources that support you.   Quoting from a chabad website or an Aish kiruv seminar is not a source.   Quoting from chazal is a source.   Quoting from Talmud is a source.   These all trump the kiruv efforts of Aish, as well-intentioned as they might be.    What Aish, (or whoever claims that all facts and events are somewhere in the Torah), what they present is "pop-Torah."   But they cannot really back up such a claim, they just assume it and impose it on the readers that the reader has to assume it too.

I argue because I think you are completely mistaken and presenting something false which can lead other Jews astray when they see it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

That is how the Torah can speak to us in every generation, for its values are eternal and its morals always applicable. Nothing ever really changes in history - only the externals undergo transformations from generation to generation.

Yes, its values and morals are eternal.   But it does not contain modern medical knowledge or every specific event that will ever take place in the world.   I think anyone who claims this is misinterpreting the sources and promoting a pop-Torah which really has no basis in reality.   But if you look closely, they did not really make that claim even though the idea about the Vilna Gaon could possibly border on it.   It's still not saying what you are saying.

Surely a person can look deeply and find relevance to his own life from the Torah.   But a person will not be able to look closely and find the Royal Wedding or the NBA finals outcome in the Torah.    That is a different kind of "relevance" entirely and misses the whole point of such an exercise.

[muman613]

Yes, its values and morals are eternal.   But it does not contain modern medical knowledge or every specific event that will ever take place in the world.   I think anyone who claims this is misinterpreting the sources and promoting a pop-Torah which really has no basis in reality.   But if you look closely, they did not really make that claim even though the idea about the Vilna Gaon could possibly border on it.   It's still not saying what you are saying.

Surely a person can look deeply and find relevance to his own life from the Torah.   But a person will not be able to look closely and find the Royal Wedding or the NBA finals outcome in the Torah.    That is a different kind of "relevance" entirely and misses the whole point of such an exercise.

No, I am not promoting 'pop-Torah' in any sense. I am saying that my belief in Hashgacha Pratis is very firm and my emmunah is such that I believe that Hashem has total control over every aspect of creation. While we certainly have free will, this comes through the ability to interpret the signs we are allowed to recognize.

The only reason I mentioned it in this thread was because I believe that the concept of Torah codes allows us to find how Hashem provides us a way to look at current events.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

No, I am not promoting 'pop-Torah' in any sense. I am saying that my belief in Hashgacha Pratis is very firm and my emmunah is such that I believe that Hashem has total control over every aspect of creation. While we certainly have free will, this comes through the ability to interpret the signs we are allowed to recognize.

The only reason I mentioned it in this thread was because I believe that the concept of Torah codes allows us to find how Hashem provides us a way to look at current events.

I'll simply reiterate that hashgaha pratith has NOTHING to do with finding the NBA finals outcome predicted in the Torah.    Again, it's the wrong kind of "relevance" to search for and it misses the point of what it means to make Torah relevant to your personal life today.   

You can believe what you want, but if you present it here, I will present a contrary view so anyone seeing this will know that they do not have to necessarily think the way you do about the subject in order to be a religious Jew.   For me this is very important because 1.  I strongly disagree with what you're saying in the name of Torah. and 2.  You often self-assuredly say things as if there is no other view possible to be a religious Jew, and this is not the case, and for people to know that in itself (that there are multiple views) is important.

[muman613]

I'll simply reiterate that hashgaha pratith has NOTHING to do with finding the NBA finals outcome predicted in the Torah.    Again, it's the wrong kind of "relevance" to search for and it misses the point of what it means to make Torah relevant to your personal life today.  

You can believe what you want, but if you present it here, I will present a contrary view so anyone seeing this will know that they do not have to necessarily think the way you do about the subject in order to be a religious Jew.   For me this is very important because 1.  I strongly disagree with what you're saying in the name of Torah. and 2.  You often self-assuredly say things as if there is no other view possible to be a religious Jew, and this is not the case, and for people to know that in itself (that there are multiple views) is important.

Do people use Torah Codes to find NBA final outcomes? Really? Is that what you are worried about? I don't know anyone that does that kind of stuff. And no, I don't speak for every Jew, but what I do say is not off the top of my head. I have several good references which support this concept. I learn through listening to Rabbis and I have heard this concept of skipping letters is a method used by the Kabbalists and the Chassidic Jews. Maybe this is not what you believe but it is not just made up and there are many, Chabad and Breslov amongst them, that do learn some of the mystical secrets which are touched upon by the Torah Codes.

Again we must be able to disagree. If you feel you are doing a service by stating these things then so be it... It is up to the reader to learn the truth...

[muman613]

By the way, I still don't know what exactly I said which you disagree with.

1) That Hashem has absolute control over every aspect of reality.

2) That the Torah contains secrets which reveal all aspects of creation.

Or something else? I suspect you have a reaction because you think that this is an attempt to tell the future but as I have repeated many times those who support the idea never suggest it can be used to predict the future. So fore-telling the score of the game is not even a possibility.

[muman613]

Im sorry but I will post one more repost concerning the Vilna Gaons discussion of the concept:

http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5764/KRH64features.htm

Plan of Creation

In his commentary to Safra Detsni'usa, the Gaon points to a third sphere of knowledge -- besides the revealed Oral Torah and the Kabboloh -- with allusions to which the Written Torah is replete. He writes:

"The principle is that everything that has existed, that exists and that will exist is all contained within the Torah, from "Bereishis" to "le'einei kol Yisroel." Not just the general principles; but even the details of each type and each individual person and everything that befalls them from the day they are born until the end of their lives, all their circumstances, down to the smallest detail.

"And of every type of animal, wild animal and living creature in the world, and every grass, growing thing and inanimate material, in the greatest detail of every species and type . . . for all time and what happens to them and their roots.

"And everything that is written about the Ovos, Moshe and Yisroel; they are all in every single generation, for sparks [of their souls] are reincarnated in every generation, as is known. And all their actions, from Odom Horishon to the end of the Torah, are in every generation, as those who possess understanding know. And so it is with each and every individual, as the Medrash Hane'elam begins explaining by allusion.

"All of this is contained in parshas Bereishis until parshas Noach. It is contained in the first parsha, until "boro . . . la'asos," and the fundamental principle underlying all others is contained in the first posuk, whose seven words correspond to the [world's] seven thousand years" (Commentary to SD, perek 5, beginning "vehaclal," pg. 55).

In Toldos Yitzchok [vol. I:2, pg. 20b.] Rav Yitzchok Cahana writes, "No explanation of the approach mentioned above has yet been heard of or has appeared in any sefer. Perhaps its meaning was only conveyed orally. At the time of the Final Redemption . . . the secret of its inner meaning will be apparent, thereby allowing comprehension of the entire creation and all it contains, in general and in detail."

Elsewhere however, the Gaon does shed a little extra light on this idea. He writes, "In speaking about the Creation, the posuk says, `Bereishis boro E-lokim.' The first six days were the general representation of all of the [world's] six thousand years. Thus, anyone who thoroughly understands the events of each day in the account of Creation, will know what will happen at each moment of the years" (Likutei HaGra, from a manuscript, Yeshayohu 2:2).

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[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Do people use Torah Codes to find NBA final outcomes? Really? Is that what you are worried about? 

No, but do you really think that's what I meant?   It's called saying something tongue in cheek, muman.

The point is the same.   You are claiming that every single event that will ever take place in history is somewhere hidden in the Torah codes.   You claimed that.  That would obviously include the nba finals just as much as it would include the death of bin laden (if that premise were true, that is).  I'm not worried about anyone doing anything, but I am expressing that the premise itself misses the point of what the Torah is or how to relate to it.   It's not a magic book.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

By the way, I still don't know what exactly I said which you disagree with.

1) That Hashem has absolute control over every aspect of reality.

2) That the Torah contains secrets which reveal all aspects of creation.

Or something else? I suspect you have a reaction because you think that this is an attempt to tell the future but as I have repeated many times those who support the idea never suggest it can be used to predict the future. So fore-telling the score of the game is not even a possibility.

No, my disagreement is not about telling the future.  I was pretty clear about what I disagree with that you are saying.   And all along I have said the word "predicted" in quotation marks because obviously people are using these "codes" to cite events which already took place and that cannot be called predicting.  

Please read my post again where I discuss that Talmudic sugiya relating to finding a source for the Purim story in Torah verses.   It is all in it.    (Did you catch my joke?)   In any case, it really is in those two posts where I mention that Talmudic sugiya, what I am disagreeing with you about.   You are claiming that all historical events and every form of knowledge or fact is in the Torah somewhere.  I am claiming that is false, and I brought real evidence to support me from chazal, rishonim, and the Talmud - not to mention common sense logic which you cannot refute (why haven't Torah scholars cured cancer or produced modern medicine?  They weren't intended to do that from Torah verses, but could do that if they studied medicine as their profession).  Not only can you not refute it, but you have consistently refused to address it. 

Also please consider rereading the post that I put in all bold.  I was trying to emphasize that.  That was why I used bold.   It seems I state pretty clearly in there what I disagree with.

And lastly, even though I said the NBA finals thing tongue-in-cheek, I actually was referring to the outcome being found in there after-the-fact like all the other codes are after-the-fact.   So why wouldn't it be in there according to you?  After the finals are over this year why can't we use the codes to find the outcome hinted to for 2011, based on your own logic?

[muman613]

Indeed I never implied Torah was a magic book. That is an incorrect understanding. But there are various statements such as 'Torah is the blueprint for creation', and others which lead us to believe that there are secrets in the Torah which are beyond the simple understanding. The methods of gematria and letter skipping are an aide to help understand some of these concepts.

But I don't intend to argue with you. I am sorry if you think that what I am saying will be misunderstood. That can be a very problematic aveirah.