what is the goal of JTF?

[briann]

Yes. Obviously a troll

By the way, is it possible to set up the forum so that new members cant start TOO many new threads.  This is typical trolling behavior, and I know other forums have a similar protection.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You guys, I see from his profile that M4L was banned. 

Hm.   He seemed a little lost, but not a threat or disruptive.   I guess the banning policy went back to the old way.

[muman613]

Hm.   He seemed a little lost, but not a threat or disruptive.   I guess the banning policy went back to the old way.

Why don't more people help out in the 'Save Israel' thread where this thatguy11 is challenging the Jewish rights to the land... I think he has been much more troublesome than M4L but he only posts in that one forum...

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=11869

His first few posts include:

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,48023.msg508949.html#msg508949

I'm starting to think you people are a bit crazy?

I just joined these forums today and I already have seen these:
1. threats to commit genocide
2. destruction and stealing of property
3. racism and hatred at its greatest
4. claims that G-d is an estate agent


Jerusalem is illegally occupied land weather you like it or not... The fact that Israel annexed East Jerusalem to itself, is illegal as well!

You people are acting as if G-d is an estate agent or something... Religion isn't great reasoning to who land belongs to... There are numerous claims for Palestine, especially because the Jews and Hebrews were NOT the first people of Palestine!

So, lets look into this one, if you really are going to take it seriously... Who were these promises made to exactly? The first promise of Palestine to the descendants of Abraham was the Shechem(Nablus) in Genesis xxi, 7: 'Unto thy seed will I give this land.' Ch. xiii, 15, when Abraham is standing on a hill near Bethel, his words are as follows: 'all the land which thou seest to thee will I give it and to thy seed for ever'. These promises are repeated to Isaac and to Jacob. Where these promises for the Jews alone? No, actually the Bible says 'to thy seed', this includes Christians and Muslims through the seed of Ishmael. The land of Canaan was promised as "an everlasting possession", it was Ishmael and Isaac had not been born yet. Also, the hospitality of Jethro and Midianite, who was Arab, and Moses' father in law...

Now comes to the idea, was this land irrevocable? The words "everlasing" is what is now used. Although, "everlasting" is indeed not the proper meaning of the Hebrew original. The word 'olam means "a long time". According to Moses in the 28th ch. of Deuteronomy... "it shall come to pass if thou wilt not herken unto the voice of the Lord thy G-d to observe to do all his commandments curses shall come upon thee and shall overtake thee... And the lord shall scatter you among the peoples, from the one end of the earth; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which though hast not known, thou nor thy fathers, even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, and there shall be no rest for the sole of thy foot; but the Lord shall give thee there a trembling heart and failing of eyes, and pinning of soul; and thy life shall hang in doubt before thee..." Here its clear that the promises to the patriarchs have been overturned. When the Assyrian captivity removed the population of Samaria, and the Babylonian captivity of the people of Judah, the prophets saw the divine justice on disobedient people.



Although, think of me just coming up to your house and saying, "G-d gave me the land and my ancestors may have lived here 3000 years ago! MOVE OUT!" Think of how silly you will think I am! Infact, you would probably think I'm a lunatic!

[briann]

Hm.   He seemed a little lost, but not a threat or disruptive.   I guess the banning policy went back to the old way.

He was not who he seemed.  If you read his posts, they were initially friendly and supportive, and then all of a sudden, every post became focused on creating rifts between JTF's alliances that we worked so hard trying to build.  His intentions were 100% malicious.

If he was JUST a Muslim apologist, I would not have seen him as such a threat.  But he was much worse, much more dangerous.  He was a wolf in sheep's clothing.

[briann]

Why don't more people help out in the 'Save Israel' thread where this thatguy11 is challenging the Jewish rights to the land... I think he has been much more troublesome than M4L but he only posts in that one forum...

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=11869

His first few posts include:

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,48023.msg508949.html#msg508949

Wow, that is bad, and certainly deserving of banning.  However, I will always put priority on trolls who are deceitful and try to craftily get our members against eachother in order to ultimately destroy our unity.  They say things that will be very offensive to one group, but may appeal to another, and they NEVER stray away from this theme.

We had a member about a year ago who was the exact same as M4L.  He was VERY friendly, but ALL of his posts were designed to shun our right-wing idology.  He also tried to show that the conservative christians were all a bunch of closet nazis, and I wouldnt be surprised if he was from a ultra left wing Jewish group.  The enemy within is the most dangerous.

[jbeige]

I dont know what you mean by this post...

Jewish people 'start' isolating themselves? The Jewish people have ALWAYS been isolated and none of the nations has been a friend to the Jew or Israel. The closest thing to a friendly nation has been America, and even then the relationship has been a rocky one.

The Torah clearly tells the Jewish people to be a nation unto itself. We will not be reckoned amongst all the nations, we are a nation alone, and a holy people to G-d himself.

It is very dangerous to tell Jews that they need to rely on outside nations. The only thing the Jewish nation needs to rely on is Hashems promise...

http://www.torah.org/learning/kolhakollel/5764/balak.html

http://www.njop.org/html/Balak5770-2010.html

PS: That said, those nations that want to help the Jews are welcome to do so, and they are considered Righteous Gentiles and certainly they have a place in Olam Haba {The World to Come}...

You are jewish, do you hide yourself away and "isolate" yourself in day to day life from other people that are not Jewish?

[muman613]

You are jewish, do you hide yourself away and "isolate" yourself in day to day life from other people that are not Jewish?

I do not hide away from non-Jews but I do not expect them to be supportive concerning Jewish issues. I also try to avoid socializing with non-Jews because I am very concerned with assimilation and since I am a Baal Teshuva I also have to fight with myself concerning simple mitzvahs including meat/dairy and other issues of Kashrut.

I try my hardest to only associate with fellow religious Jews but where I live there is barely a community.

My point is that the Jewish people should not look to non-Jews to save them. History has shown that Jews are betrayed by non-Jews over and over again. One of the reasons for this, I believe, is that G-d himself is the master of the Jewish people and not the nations of the world. I work hard on keeping my level of faith and trust in Hashem.

This article contains this sentiment:

http://www.jewishpath.com/holidays/gematria/bread_and_water_of_sukkos.html

Chassidim, this is after the horrific battle known as Gog and Magog. So those of us who live in 5762 should not fool ourselves. We still have this battle that Hashem will wage against the nations of the world. WHY?

Again at Sukkos time we are reminded of this battle that MUST happen before all Jews are drawn from the four corners of the world and before our Bais HaMikdosh is built and before sacrifice and Temple worship returns. Dear ones, Sukkos time is a reminder to every Jew: PLACE YOUR TRUST IN HASHEM OUR DELIVERER!!

Until that time arrives we should especially focus on the seventh day of Sukkos, Hoshana Rabba, when we march around the beemah of the shul with our lulav and esrog seven times.

Remember our sukkah is a reminder. Our sukkah is not only a reminder of dwelling in humble, modest booths in the BaMidbar {the Wilderness} but of our deliverance from Mitzriam. Sukkos looks FORWARD to a similar but greater deliverance by our G-d and our KING, the deliverance from death by the nations of the world at Gog and Magog. We were weak and fearful then {in Mitzrim} BUT we trusted in our DELIVERER! Sukkos reminds us that we are weak and fearful now and MUST return to that trust of our forefathers in Mitzriam. Yisroel should NOT succumb to pressures of great nations or of all the nations of the world. We must REMEMBER this is only a time clock ticking towards our final deliverance from our enemies.

As the time clock ticks towards Gog and Magog, take comfort in the memory that the Creator of the universe did NOT CREATE OR ENDORSE dozens of religions. In fact one of the very important memories that we are to stir up is when Kal Yisroel was delivered from Mitzriam {Egypt} our Creator defeated every god of Mitzriam. That will happen again at Gog and Magog!! Not only will the nations of the world line up against Yisroel but many of the religions of the world also line up against us. Our Creator and our Deliverer will defeat the nations and annihilate the religions. Only two belief systems will exist after Gog and Magog, Judaism and Spirituality. These are the original and only belief systems sanctioned by Hashem from the beginning and from the Torah!!

[muman613]

jbeige,

I don't think we have had many conversations but many people know that I work in the High-Tech sector in Silicon Valley. As such I am constantly inter-relating to non-Jews from all over this great Earth. I have no problem relating and working with these people but I do not 'socialize' with them...

[briann]

I do not hide away from non-Jews but I do not expect them to be supportive concerning Jewish issues. I also try to avoid socializing with non-Jews because I am very concerned with assimilation and since I am a Baal Teshuva I also have to fight with myself concerning simple mitzvahs including meat/dairy and other issues of Kashrut.

I try my hardest to only associate with fellow religious Jews but where I live there is barely a community.

My point is that the Jewish people should not look to non-Jews to save them. History has shown that Jews are betrayed by non-Jews over and over again. One of the reasons for this, I believe, is that G-d himself is the master of the Jewish people and not the nations of the world. I work hard on keeping my level of faith and trust in Hashem.

This article contains this sentiment:

I think it IS important NOT to have to rely on non-Jewish people, and I think the same is true for Israel as a whole.     And I think that its important for religious Jews and religious Christians to go to appropriate religious schools that teach and tolerate their belief system when they are growing up..

HOWEVER, I don't agree that Jews should only associate with other Jews.  Assuming other people are not Jew-haters or Muslims, I enjoy hanging out with all types of people; gentiles, hindus, you name it.  Completely isolating ourselves is really not neccessary and it reminds me of how Muslims behave.

[muman613]

I think it IS important NOT to have to rely on non-Jewish people, and I think the same is true for Israel as a whole.     And I think that its important for religious Jews and religious Christians to go to appropriate religious schools that teach and tolerate their belief system when they are growing up..

HOWEVER, I don't agree that Jews should only associate with other Jews.  Assuming other people are not Jew-haters or Muslims, I enjoy hanging out with all types of people; gentiles, hindus, you name it.  Completely isolating ourselves is really not neccessary and it reminds me of how Muslims behave.

Well the sages of the Talmud have also told Jews that they should not associate with non-Jews for the reason of preventing intermarriage. This is the primary reason a Jew is not supposed to eat or drink with a non-Jew. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and you may do as you wish... But I have decided to keep to the stricter interpretation of these laws.

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/leff/archives/ach_kdsh.htm

Other times, rabbinic rules work indirectly by instilling attitudes that reduce temptations to sin. The Rabbis, for instance, prohibited drinking wine touched by a non-Jew or eating food cooked by a non-Jew as a fence against intermarriage. On the surface, it seems ludicrous that drinking wine in the confines of one's home that has been touched by a non-Jew, or eating food cooked by a gentile and bought in a store could in any way make it more likely that one would marry a gentile.

That response, however, fails to comprehend the purpose of the rabbinic enactment, which is not designed to protect one against intermarriage with any particular non-Jew, but rather to create an all-pervasive attitude that is in itself a protective measure. The prohibition against eating food cooked by non-Jews and from drinking wine touched by non-Jews has effectively created an attitude of an absolute chasm between Jew and non-Jew. The mere knowledge that the food cooked by a non-Jew is forbidden engenders a feeling of separateness that makes the thought of intermarriage even more remote.

PS: I also don't think we should only 'relate' to fellow Jews. It is important for Jews to have contact with non-Jews but I think this interaction should be kept to a minimum for the reason the sages have outlined.

Also in my own personal situation since I strive to keep the mitzvot that when I am involved with non-Jews they invariably lead me to violate mitzvot...


PPS: I believe Rabbi Kahane addressed this issue in his writing "Why Be Jewish?"...



http://rabbikahane.wordpress.com/2010/08/25/what-makes-bernie-run/

[muman613]

I think we are now way off topic... Maybe we should discuss this topic "Whether Jews should remain separate" in the Torah section rather than in the General forum..

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

He was not who he seemed.  If you read his posts, they were initially friendly and supportive, and then all of a sudden, every post became focused on creating rifts between JTF's alliances that we worked so hard trying to build.  His intentions were 100% malicious.

If he was JUST a Muslim apologist, I would not have seen him as such a threat.  But he was much worse, much more dangerous.  He was a wolf in sheep's clothing.

I don't see him convincing anyone with his arguments.   At this point, anyone making conversation here is a good thing, I think the forum activity has been hit hard because of all the attacks on the site preventing people from accessing the forum and causing people to be less active.  I certainly feel like I have been less active.

[briann]

I don't see him convincing anyone with his arguments.   At this point, anyone making conversation here is a good thing, I think the forum activity has been hit hard because of all the attacks on the site preventing people from accessing the forum and causing people to be less active.  I certainly feel like I have been less active.

I agree on people making conversation and again, I have no problem with anti-JTFers coming in here and arguing with us, since it allows us to retort them. 

But there are RARE cases, only about 3 that I can remember, where the skilfull trolls were good enough at what they did to cause long-time members to feel unwelcome, especially if these trolls post far more than the any other members and are strategically able to get on other member's good sides.  Chaim knows how dangerous this can be to the movement which is why he has done the right thing in each of these situations before it got out of hand.

But again, they are VERY rare, and for every one of these skillful wolf-in-sheep's clothing trolls, there are 10 of the run-of-the-mill trolls who are easy to spot, and are nothing more than a nuisance, and are sometimes entertaining.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

You know, we should just learn to ignore all posters who make provocative or difficult-to-believe posts, you know?