Did the Israeli govt murder the Rabbi of Otniel?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Links of interest pertaining to this case: 

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/149648
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/149658
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/149654
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/149664


Please explain whichever answer you chose.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

The IDF shot a a Jew with entire cartridge and we sit and do nothing. The settlers really are the whores of the Middle East

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The IDF shot a a Jew with entire cartridge and we sit and do nothing. The settlers really are the whores of the Middle East

Don't forget to cast your vote.

[muman613]

What would be the motive for such an action. This Rabbi was not accused of any wrong doing... What is accomplished by this action?

I voted 'Im not sure'...

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/149664#.TsIMw7i6bWA
The army ordered an improvised roadblock. Rabbi Martzbach apparently did not see the roadblock, and the soldiers fired in the air when he passed. Hearing the gunshots, he thought terrorists were shooting and he sped up even more, a passenger reported.

The mix-up escalated, and the soldiers fired at the driver, against normal procedures.

The soldier who fired  immediately apologized for the shooting when he realized the passengers were Jews, but it was too late. Rabbi Martzbach was killed instantly, and two passengers were wounded with light to moderate injuries.

As the soldier was trying to see what he could do to help, he was hit by a Palestinian Authority driver who had not seen him and was lightly injured.

One of the survivors expressed understanding that the soldier had made an innocent error.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

#2 although can't say for sure this was a hit, but we have seen wayyy to many good Jews being targets and its a fact that the eruv rav regime gave a list of names and locations of Jewish "trouble makers" to the Fatah terrorists. Who in turn went out and especially targeted them (including Rabbi Benyamin Kahane, Rabbi Ozeri and many others). And we wonder why many of the Kahanists are dead?

[Dr. Dan]

This is such a horrendous tragedy that I feel at this time is "friendly fire".

[Dr. Dan]

The IDF shot a a Jew with entire cartridge and we sit and do nothing. The settlers really are the whores of the Middle East

The settlers are whores of the middle east?  Did i read that correctly?

[Yaakov Mendel]

I fail to see what danger the Rabbi could have represented in the eyes of Israeli authorities. He wasn't known as a political leader or activist, was he ?
So maybe I'm too naive but I'll assume that this is an accident. I voted "I'm not sure".

[Zelhar]

I am sure it was an accident. It also followed by an obnoxious cover up attempt by the IDF, they tried to pin the blame entirely on the deceased rabbi.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

The settlers are whores of the middle east?  Did i read that correctly?

Yeah. They're the only ones you can expel, beat, rape and massacre and they will join your army and worship you in response.

[Dr. Dan]

Yeah. They're the only ones you can expel, beat, rape and massacre and they will join your army and worship you in response.

Do you mean all settlers?  Or you just mean the ones that side with the pesha council and will do what the idf tells them to do instead of resist. I'm sure settlers who fight back aren'tlike whores.our are they to you?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What would be the motive for such an action. This Rabbi was not accused of any wrong doing... What is accomplished by this action?

I voted 'Im not sure'...

I don't understand the nature of your question and similar ones asked by Yaakov.   The settlers are an enemy of the Israeli regime.  The israeli regime has earmarked their land for a fakestinian state and wants them gone.  The settlers are an obstacle to so-called "peace" (surrender to the arabs).  The settlers are an embarrassment to the israeli regime in the international arena where nazi scum point to settlers as evidence that the israeli regime and its country are criminals.  The settlers have a rightwing leaning which lends itself to significant opposition to the regime's national agenda, and they embrace values contrary to the national ethos the regime has been artifically creating and imposing on society.  And a great mass of israelis sympathize with the ideologues among the settlers which would pose a significant political threat should they ever gain traction as a competitive force to wrest power from the elites.   The settlers are viewed as an immense threat, and rightly so.

The lifeblood of the settlers, especially of the religiously and ideologically motivated ones, are the settlement rabbis who are the shieldbearers of the settlement ideology.   What is the question?  You cannot see why the govt would have an interest in targeting them?  (Btw they probably helped the arabs murder r. Benyamin Kahane and his rebetzin).  The motive is certainly there.  The question is do the facts add up to anything that suggests govt involvement.  Imo, there are way too many settlement rabbis being killed under strange circumstances over the years for it to be all a big coincidence.  And the details of rabbi mertzbach's murder are extremely suspicious to me!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I am sure it was an accident. It also followed by an obnoxious cover up attempt by the IDF, they tried to pin the blame entirely on the deceased rabbi.

If it was truly an accident, why would they do this?  To me, clumsy coverups by the israeli govt always point to an agenda (for instance when they tried to blame the Palmers to protect the arab nazis that murdered them) and possible involvement.

[muman613]

I don't understand the nature of your question and similar ones asked by Yaakov.   The settlers are an enemy of the Israeli regime.  The israeli regime has earmarked their land for a fakestinian state and wants them gone.  The settlers are an obstacle to so-called "peace" (surrender to the arabs).  The settlers are an embarrassment to the israeli regime in the international arena where nazi scum point to settlers as evidence that the israeli regime and its country are criminals.  The settlers have a rightwing leaning which lends itself to significant opposition to the regime's national agenda, and they embrace values contrary to the national ethos the regime has been artifically creating and imposing on society.  And a great mass of israelis sympathize with the ideologues among the settlers which would pose a significant political threat should they ever gain traction as a competitive force to wrest power from the elites.   The settlers are viewed as an immense threat, and rightly so.

The lifeblood of the settlers, especially of the religiously and ideologically motivated ones, are the settlement rabbis who are the shieldbearers of the settlement ideology.   What is the question?  You cannot see why the govt would have an interest in targeting them?  (Btw they probably helped the arabs murder r. Benyamin Kahane and his rebetzin).  The motive is certainly there.  The question is do the facts add up to anything that suggests govt involvement.  Imo, there are way too many settlement rabbis being killed under strange circumstances over the years for it to be all a big coincidence.  And the details of rabbi mertzbach's murder are extremely suspicious to me!

I seriously doubt that this was a planned execution. But as I said in my original response, I am not sure... You are the only one who I know who has suggested this. Do you have any other source besides your own 'feeling' on this?

What do you think the Jews who give money to Jewish organizations and the Jewish state will think about this, assuming it is true? Don't you think that if anyone found out about this 'conspiracy' then it would have incredible repercussions in the Jewish communities throughout the world?

[Zelhar]

If it was truly an accident, why would they do this?  To me, clumsy coverups by the israeli govt always point to an agenda (for instance when they tried to blame the Palmers to protect the arab nazis that murdered them) and possible involvement.

I don't know very well how things work in other places, but in Israel accepting responsibility for a mistake is something many people, and organization especially don't do.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I seriously doubt that this was a planned execution. But as I said in my original response, I am not sure... You are the only one who I know who has suggested this. Do you have any other source besides your own 'feeling' on this?  

Is something true based on the number of people saying it, or how many people agree?  I am raising this issue as something to consider because I think its necessary and gave my logic for why it should be considered.  I don't care how many people have or have not said the same thing I'm saying.  Why should that matter?   Just Btw I am not the only one in the world who thinks settlement rabbis turning up dead is not a coincidence.

What do you think the Jews who give money to Jewish organizations and the Jewish state will think about this, assuming it is true? Don't you think that if anyone found out about this 'conspiracy' then it would have incredible repercussions in the Jewish communities throughout the world?

Already labeling it conspiracy theory are we?  Guess I really struck a nerve.  This is one reason I would never give a dime to the state of israel as charity (one of many reasons), and the answer to your question is yes, and that is why the state would not come out and admit this, and instead it uses convenient "mysterious circumstances" and "accidents" to hide what they are doing.   Arab car accidents are one of the methods used.   How much would you bet that in these road accidents the arabs are tipped off about who will be driving where and in what kind of car.

[muman613]

Is something true based on the number of people saying it, or how many people agree?  I am raising this issue as something to consider because I think its necessary and gave my logic for why it should be considered.  I don't care how many people have or have not said the same thing I'm saying.  Why should that matter?   Just Btw I am not the only one in the world who thinks settlement rabbis turning up dead is not a coincidence.

Already labeling it conspiracy theory are we?  Guess I really struck a nerve.  This is one reason I would never give a dime to the state of israel as charity (one of many reasons), and the answer to your question is yes, and that is why the state would not come out and admit this, and instead it uses convenient "mysterious circumstances" and "accidents" to hide what they are doing.   Arab car accidents are one of the methods used.   How much would you bet that in these road accidents the arabs are tipped off about who will be driving where and in what kind of car.

I simply asked whether there were others who have this opinion or whether you thought of it yourself. And as I stated several times, I am not sure what happened.... I would be interested to hear of others who are closer to what actually happened who believe what you are saying. When I read the article and that one of the survivors stated she believes it was an accident I accepted what she said.

I think that if there is something to this it will destroy the modern state of Israel. The Jewish people in the Diaspora contribute a great deal to the prosperity of Israel and the leaders would be cutting their noses to spite their face if they acted against the Religious Jews of the land.

I am not suggesting that you are a 'conspiracy' theorist... I have admitted that there are some 'conspiracies' which I give credence to {including the hazy circumstances surrounding yitzak rabins murder}...

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

A. The soldier clearly identified the car as Jewish (they have an Israeli license plate).

B. There's an engagement rule which says that you must shoot a suspect car in the wheels. An Arab would NEVER get shot with 8 bullets straight in the head. Not even in the wheels.

Now, why was the IDF caught lying in 3 incidents? Why did he lie that it was Asher Palmer's fault and that he rolled over with his car, when ANYBODY in the scene could clearly see that he was butchered by Arabs? Why did he lie now?

[muman613]

A. The soldier clearly identified the car as Jewish (they have an Israeli license plate).

B. There's an engagement rule which says that you must shoot a suspect car in the wheels. An Arab would NEVER get shot with 8 bullets straight in the head. Not even in the wheels.

Now, why was the IDF caught lying in 3 incidents? Why did he lie that it was Asher Palmer's fault and that he rolled over with his car, when ANYBODY who was in the scene clearly saw that he was butchered by Arabs? Why did he lie now?

It was obvious from the beginning that Palmer was killed by an arab.... The 'official' reason that they covered it up was to ease the reaction from the religious right {us} during the pa united nations bid....

It was really terrible that the IDF is lying to the Jewish people these days. May all the wicked elements of the IDF die soon so that the righteous can get us back on track...

[Yaakov Mendel]

A. The soldier clearly identified the car as Jewish (they have an Israeli license plate).

B. There's an engagement rule which says that you must shoot a suspect car in the wheels. An Arab would NEVER get shot with 8 bullets straight in the head. Not even in the wheels.

Now, why was the IDF caught lying in 3 incidents? Why did he lie that it was Asher Palmer's fault and that he rolled over with his car, when ANYBODY in the scene could clearly see that he was butchered by Arabs? Why did he lie now?

I didn't know that the unfortunate Rabbi received 8 bullets in the head. Now that I know this, I revise my opinion, I do not believe that it was an accident. It's disgusting beyond words.

[Debbie Shafer]

And so, even in God's chosen land there will be evil, and evil is trying to destroy Good, specifically devout Rabbis!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I simply asked whether there were others who have this opinion or whether you thought of it yourself.

But on this point, why?  If soneone famous says it would that make it more palatable for you or more believable?  For what reason?

And as I stated several times, I am not sure what happened.... I would be interested to hear of others who are closer to what actually happened who believe what you are saying. When I read the article and that one of the survivors stated she believes it was an accident I accepted what she said.

Lol why do I have to be close to what happened?  Just look at the facts that we know.  They add up to bloody murder, and there's not even an attempt to hide what facts are already known.

Why would a victim who just suffered thru this trauma and lost a family member, be expected to give a cold rational analysis about what happened?  The opposite is true.   They are likely to be in serious denial at this point, not to mention shock and immense suffering.   So if they say they think it was an accident, that clears away all the crazy events that took place here?

I think that if there is something to this it will destroy the modern state of Israel. The Jewish people in the Diaspora contribute a great deal to the prosperity of Israel and the leaders would be cutting their noses to spite their face if they acted against the Religious Jews of the land.

Wouldn't you say the altalena is something like this?  It didn't destroy anything.  Because jews want to believe in this people who run the state.  Its a source of pride for galut Jews and a way to assuage the guilt they feel for never living up to their obligations as a Jew and instead embracing the galuth. And believe in them they will.

[muman613]

But on this point, why?  If soneone famous says it would that make it more palatable for you or more believable?  For what reason?

Lol why do I have to be close to what happened?  Just look at the facts that we know.  They add up to bloody murder, and there's not even an attempt to hide what facts are already known.

Why would a victim who just suffered thru this trauma and lost a family member, be expected to give a cold rational analysis about what happened?  The opposite is true.   They are likely to be in serious denial at this point, not to mention shock and immense suffering.   So if they say they think it was an accident, that clears away all the crazy events that took place here?
 Wouldn't you say the altalena is something like this?  It didn't destroy anything.  Because jews want to believe in this people who run the state.  Its a source of pride for galut Jews and a way to assuage the guilt they feel for never living up to their obligations as a Jew and instead embracing the galuth. And believe in them they will.

It is indeed a sad state of affairs. We need Hashem to strengthen us against all of our enemies...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It is indeed a sad state of affairs. We need Hashem to strengthen us against all of our enemies...

I agree. Truly sad.  And it drives me nuts.

[edu]

Even today, after more than 5 and 1/2 years since the Amona pogrom against Thousands of settlers, there has been no real punishment against the main criminals that were responsible. This indicates that the government still endorses, at least non-lethal violence against the settlers and similar groups if they think it is pragmatic and can get away with it.
In theory, I could have cited more recent examples of non-lethal violence against the settlers at outposts during the time of Bibi's phoney right wing government. But I cited Amona because it is more well known.
I am looking for more evidence in the case of the Rabbi of Otniel, if this is a further deterioration in the Anti-Settler policies of the government or an attempt to hide a mistake.