Wedding rings? not for Jews

[Chai]

I'm sorry I disagree with your interpretation here.  First when a marriage is taking place a man needs to give a woman something and woman needs to give a man something..and that something is simple piece of jewelry usually a plain colored ring of some value.

Secondly, monogamy in marriage is a Christian thing..therefore should Jews be polygamists like the Muslims?

I wear my wedding ring and I wear it with pride.  It also keeps the single women from hitting on me...which is a good thing.

I thought Sephardi men don't wear wedding rings. I seems like it is uncomfortable too.

[Zelhar]

As far as multiple wives in the world to come.. Me personally, I would never want to share my soul with multiple women..only my wife.

And there is no doubt in my mind yaacov and avraham were uncomfortable having multiple wives...but it was what it was.

Avraham didn't have multiple wives, he had one wife and three concubines.

[nessuno]

A wedding ring is only symbolic.  What it symbolizes must be respected by the wearer.  I think it doesn't matter one bit to a relationship if it's worn by a man or not.

Women sound horrible the way you describe them, Muman.  I wouldn't want to marry one, let alone two or more.
 

[Dr. Dan]

I thought Sephardi men don't wear wedding rings. I seems like it is uncomfortable too.

Some men wear their ring and some don't.  I wear mine with pride.  And at first it does feel weird to wear a ring if you had never worn one before.  However you get used to out and even naked without it.

[Rubystars]

Nonetheless, the lesson of the Ramban remains critical. A married woman must feel that her husband loves her more than anyone or anything else. The obligation to honor one's wife more than oneself (Yevamos 62b) includes one's interests and preoccupations as well. A wife must respect her husband's schedule, but if she finds it necessary to interrupt him, he must respond with concentration and empathy. Otherwise, she may feel hated, loved less than his other pursuits.

So if the woman stands in front of the tv the last 5 minutes of the Super Bowl and says "Let's talk", is he supposed to respond with concentration and empathy and not throw an empty beer can at her?  Cool!

Just kidding I know that would be cruel to do that. 

[Rubystars]

I think that having two or more wives is problematic. Women today are very needy and often get jealous easily. I know that a woman scorned can cause phenomenal problems. When I was younger I had several friends who were women and in every case there was jealousy involved. When I married my wife was incredibly jealous of any women who I came in contact with... Thus I believe that while it is permitted, it is something which one should contemplate the negatives before even thinking about it...

It's men who have traditionally held the power in society with women being financially dependent on men to support them and their children through the man's income. If a man were to stray this could cause a very dire situation for the woman and her children. So of course women learned that it is best to be jealous rather than confident where such things are concerned. Nowadays things are better in the sense that women have more power and independence to support themselves than in the past, but I think it's still something that's ingrained to a certain degree, perhaps even on a genetic level (non-jealous women probably had their children die more often).  

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Is there anything cuter than a jealous woman?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Seriously, how did Yibum get into this thread? 

 Its connected to  marriage since according to those (and its not the sages like you said) then Yibum would cause even more problems where the guy would have to divorce his first wife to marry her then (what if they are perfectly happy, etc.) Or this Mitzwah is annulled?
 
 And you beat me to Dr. Dan's statement of "the sages forbid this". - It is not true. No sages of the Talmudh forbid this. Rabbeinu Gershom in Europe (thus only applied to Askenasim at a certain time, if at all) forbad it for unclear reasons and only for a certain time- the Yaabetz explained because of the jealousy of the non-Jews of Europe who would have an extra excuse to persecute Jews.
 The Sefardim never took this upon themselves. Only because of laws of other nations (like the U.S.) and the state of Israel (which secular laws don't really apply to Jews anyway) was/is this not done.
  Even the Askenasim today are in no way bound by the decree, which expired a long time ago, + even those who were strict said perhaps 1,000 years. Guess what, the 1,000 years were up in the 1,900's (forgot the exact date).
  If people personally do not want to, that is their problem, all I am trying to do is to clarify what the law actually is without the usual biases that we get today -like "it's not preferable by the sages" and other such statements, which some men (usually because they are afraid of the whip of their wives or because of the western culture and though patters permeating their thoughts.

[briann]

Wow, Ive learned a lot from the thread. 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Is there anything cuter than a jealous woman?

 2 jealous woman    (no seriously this (the discussion) is not a joke).

[Dr. Dan]

Its connected to  marriage since according to those (and its not the sages like you said) then Yibum would cause even more problems where the guy would have to divorce his first wife to marry her then (what if they are perfectly happy, etc.) Or this Mitzwah is annulled?
 
 And you beat me to Dr. Dan's statement of "the sages forbid this". - It is not true. No sages of the Talmudh forbid this. Rabbeinu Gershom in Europe (thus only applied to Askenasim at a certain time, if at all) forbad it for unclear reasons and only for a certain time- the Yaabetz explained because of the jealousy of the non-Jews of Europe who would have an extra excuse to persecute Jews.
 The Sefardim never took this upon themselves. Only because of laws of other nations (like the U.S.) and the state of Israel (which secular laws don't really apply to Jews anyway) was/is this not done.
  Even the Askenasim today are in no way bound by the decree, which expired a long time ago, + even those who were strict said perhaps 1,000 years. Guess what, the 1,000 years were up in the 1,900's (forgot the exact date).
  If people personally do not want to, that is their problem, all I am trying to do is to clarify what the law actually is without the usual biases that we get today -like "it's not preferable by the sages" and other such statements, which some men (usually because they are afraid of the whip of their wives or because of the western culture and though patters permeating their thoughts.

Listen there are practical problems to this in today's time.  There are almost equal men to women ratio in this world give or take there would be chaos. 

In a war riddled world where millions of men die and now there are 100 women for every man, then one can make a case of polygamy as an act of chesed.

But today the way things are, it wouldn't be chesed.  Just selfish

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Listen there are practical problems to this in today's time.  There are almost equal men to women ratio in this world give or take there would be chaos. 

In a war riddled world where millions of men die and now there are 100 women for every man, then one can make a case of polygamy as an act of chesed.

But today the way things are, it wouldn't be chesed.  Just selfish

 Their are problems or better yett challenges to many things. Hey making and having a modern state of Israel also had and has problems, will you just say lets not bother since their are/were problems?
  What about the very real situation of many men especially in America intermarrying. Their are many Jewish women who wish to marry and have children and because of this they can't. Some even intermarry as well since a women's time comes up where she cannot have children and their aren't men available for them. Wouldn't it be better for them to marry a Jewish man instead of going with a goy or not having children at all?
  - And about war, we should take the women out of the military and send only men. Then their will also be less men to women ratio (of-course protect soldiers as much as possible).

[muman613]

Its connected to  marriage since according to those (and its not the sages like you said) then Yibum would cause even more problems where the guy would have to divorce his first wife to marry her then (what if they are perfectly happy, etc.) Or this Mitzwah is annulled?
 
 And you beat me to Dr. Dan's statement of "the sages forbid this". - It is not true. No sages of the Talmudh forbid this. Rabbeinu Gershom in Europe (thus only applied to Askenasim at a certain time, if at all) forbad it for unclear reasons and only for a certain time- the Yaabetz explained because of the jealousy of the non-Jews of Europe who would have an extra excuse to persecute Jews.
 The Sefardim never took this upon themselves. Only because of laws of other nations (like the U.S.) and the state of Israel (which secular laws don't really apply to Jews anyway) was/is this not done.
  Even the Askenasim today are in no way bound by the decree, which expired a long time ago, + even those who were strict said perhaps 1,000 years. Guess what, the 1,000 years were up in the 1,900's (forgot the exact date).
  If people personally do not want to, that is their problem, all I am trying to do is to clarify what the law actually is without the usual biases that we get today -like "it's not preferable by the sages" and other such statements, which some men (usually because they are afraid of the whip of their wives or because of the western culture and though patters permeating their thoughts.

Once again you claim this is because of 'galut mentality' but have not proven that to be the case. I have brought several sources, from Mishna and from later sources, which show that there are problems for men who have too many wives. I also have experience which confirms this to be a problem. On a personal note, have you Tag ever been married? How many girl-friends have you had at the same time? The nature of women is that they will become 'catty' and start to snipe against each other.

Biblically this happened over and over. From Hagar acting snooty with Sarah, to the wives of Jacob who were jealous of each other {for who would have more children}.

If you would like to address these issues then please do so. I do not disagree that the Halacha is that it is permitted. But as I said before, just because something is permitted is not a reason to indulge in the behavior.

[muman613]

Avraham didn't have multiple wives, he had one wife and three concubines.

Actually Abraham did marry Hagar after Sarah died...

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/2636/jewish/The-Return-of-Hagar.htm

And Abraham again took a wife, and her name was Keturah

Genesis 25:1

Keturah is Hagar. Why is she called Keturah? For her deeds were [now] as pleasing as the ketoret.

Midrash Rabbah on verse

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Once again you claim this is because of 'galut mentality' but have not proven that to be the case.

Biblically this happened over and over. From Hagar acting snooty with Sarah, to the wives of Jacob who were jealous of each other {for who would have more children}.

If you would like to address these issues then please do so. I do not disagree that the Halacha is that it is permitted. But as I said before, just because something is permitted is not a reason to indulge in the behavior.

 Rav Bar Haim Shlitta said it is the case (check the shiur I posted earlier in this thread). The "Galut mentality" is the fact that their are real issues that are not being addressed. For example Agunot and women being tied to marriages that they do not want to be part of. According to Torah law, Beit Din can and should even give lashes under the proper circumstances to this man and force a divorce. Today's courts do not do what is necessary for the society. And this is something leading to Hilonim gaining more power (or worse, married women going with other men in some cases).
 - Hagar was/is just the mother of the Ishmaelites. She was of Egyptian origin. Just because she acted improperly doesn't make this improper for all women. As far as Yakows wives- I don't remember any "jealousy". Maybe competition, but who says competition is a bad thing in the world?
 - Who ever said about "indulging". Their are real situations where not only would it be permitted but even better to have it. Like I said before (and its addressed in the shiur) a women who can't find a Jewish male to marry and her timing for children is getting smaller by the day, or in a case of a brother dying childless and another brother having have to marry his widow which is a Torah Mitzwah and who can nullify it? Soo to fulfill it, the man should divorce his first wife who'm he is happily married to?
 - About jealousy and other things you mentioned who do you seriously think had better marriages- people of today or people like the Temanim who lives much simpler lifestyles and these women were many times best of friends living together as compared to today's society and the sky rocking divorce rates, and depression and all the nice western culture, ways and beliefs?
 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Also lets not forget about trying to raise the Jewish population statistics which are only getting worse. If you have vast assimilation + not allowing more than 1 wife + all the years of persecution which killed millions + in some cases extreme (even unnecessary) regulations against people converting + people having few children = you get small population growth of the Jewish nation which is a terrible state to be in.

[muman613]

Also lets not forget about trying to raise the Jewish population statistics which are only getting worse. If you have vast assimilation + not allowing more than 1 wife + all the years of persecution which killed millions + in some cases extreme (even unnecessary) regulations against people converting + people having few children = you get small population growth of the Jewish nation which is a terrible state to be in.

Most of the FFB (Frum From Birth) people I know usually have large families even with one wife. I know several Chabad Rabbis who have six to eight children.... My friend Yosef has 12 siblings in his family {Now he is the mashgiach at the university that I daven with}.

[muman613]

 - Hagar was/is just the mother of the Ishmaelites. She was of Egyptian origin. Just because she acted improperly doesn't make this improper for all women. As far as Yakows wives- I don't remember any "jealousy". Maybe competition, but who says competition is a bad thing in the world?
 

Tag,

I have not listened to the shuir yet, but I hope to be able to listen to it tonight so I can address what you are saying more coherently.

Hagar, according to Midrash, was much more than 'just the mother of Ishmael'. According to the Chumash Beresheit, Abraham married Hagar after Sarah died and he fathered another six offspring through her.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/698144/jewish/What-happened-to-Abrahams-other-descendants.htm

Question:

The average person, like myself, has been taught that Abraham had two sons: Isaac and Ishmael. The book of Genesis, however, mentions that Abraham had many sons. Do we know who these individuals are today? Did they carry on the Jewish traditions?

Answer:

In Genesis 25:1-6, the Torah recounts that after Sarah's death Abraham married a woman named Keturah,1 and fathered six children. According to the account in Genesis, before his death, Abraham sent off the children whom she bore "eastward, to the Land of the East."

They are not considered a part of the Jewish nation. For G‑d told Abraham:2 "Your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac, and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him..." "For in Isaac will be called your seed..."3 They and their descendents are therefore not bound by the commandments of the Torah, which was given solely to the Jewish people, Isaac's progeny.

The only command that was given to Abraham and his children was circumcision.4 Nevertheless, according to many,5 the children other than Isaac were not commanded to continue this practice for future generations.

In Biblical times, there were certain nations who were specifically identified as the descendants of Keturah, such as the nation of Midian. Today, however, the children of Keturah have more or less assimilated in with the children of Ishmael.6

Best wishes,

Rabbi Baruch S. Davidson

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/3174/jewish/Chayei-Sarah.htm

Abraham takes a new wife, Keturah (Hagar) and fathers six additional sons, but Isaac is designated as his only heir. Abraham dies at age 175 and is buried beside Sarah by his two eldest sons, Isaac and Ishmael.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Muman, the letter to jonathan and suzie did not reference the ancient world or ancient Jewish fashion.  Got anything on that?