Associating G-d with Idols (for example, the Trinity) is Idolatry

[edu]

The Chazon Ish established in his, Hilchot Avodat Cochavim, siman 62, comment 19:
    "That is to say that the Gentiles of their times believed in a Creator, however, they attributed a material nature and change to him, up to the point where they considered created matter as a god and therefore at the time when they recount the name of heaven [a euphemism for G-d] they associate [or make a partnership between] the Creator of heaven with something else so therefore this creates a leniency in the law against causing the name of an idol to be uttered, for indeed, the name which they recount is directed towards the Creator of Heaven; however there is an aspect of the association [or partnership] of the name of heaven with something else which is more severe than just recounting the name of idols.
    And it is clarified, that a doubt never entered into the minds of our rabbis that it and those who serve it should have the status of idol worship, although they believe in a Creator of Heaven, for all that worship something that was created and attribute to it, an independent will [or free choice] and dominion, this is the main aspect of idolatry".

[maelgwyn]

You are refering to the Apostate Church! Many Gentile sects pray to G-D thru his one and only son J/C, and deny the Trinity as herasy!

[edu]

Those groups that deny a trinity are moving in the right direction.
I would like in light of maelgwyn's words to bring up  another point at this time.
It says in the Bible:
You are sons to G-d your L-rd
Dvarim/Deuteronomy 14:1
We Jews understand that this is a symbolic statement and not literal. In our view G-d doesn't even have a body.
There is much more to be said on this subject but I think I will have more of an impact
if I don't bring up too much information about the Jewish viewpoint in one shot.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Those groups that deny a trinity are moving in the right direction.
I would like in light of maelgwyn's words to bring up  another point at this time.
It says in the Bible:
You are sons to G-d your L-rd
Dvarim/Deuteronomy 14:1
We Jews understand that this is a symbolic statement and not literal. In our view G-d doesn't even have a body.
There is much more to be said on this subject but I think I will have more of an impact
if I don't bring up too much information about the Jewish viewpoint in one shot.

 In fact Jesus himself said that as well. He was saying that he is the son of G-D. But when he was asked he said I'm like you (just as you are the children of G-D). Meaning just as the Jews are referred to as the children of G-D soo is he the son of G-D (not more and not less).
 Some (in my view) pagens started making him be a literal "son of G-D", but the truth is their is no such thing. Even by his own testimony as written in their books.

[maelgwyn]

J/C was born in the Autumn not December, early church incorporated pagen festivals to g et members-etc The cross didnt appear till AD 400 torture stake the Rnsomans put their victims to death . Emperor Constantine the apostate , not great has a lot to answer for !   

[muman613]

I discussed this topic here almost two years ago. I think that the lesson I learned is that since JTF has many members who believe in that particular Messiah that we should not attempt to offend them. This is a touchy topic and I would like to avoid prolonging this discussion.

[maelgwyn]

Iam neither fish nor foul, neither a Jew or Gentile, i lean towards the Jews & Hashem, because i spent as a child more time with the Jewish side of my family and in the 1950s took part in all the festivals. I dont follow riedchristianitynor support J/C , but have a slight support for the non conformist church!  A kind Rabbi once took me under his wing and tried to teach me Hebrew, and i once won a junior Hebrew book at school [1960] I have been persecuted myself because of my Jewish sounding surname, all our familys dead only me a nd mothers left, maters a good yakel woman now nearly 90, she have been rewarded for her kindness to the Jews!

[muman613]

Iam neither fish nor foul, neither a Jew or Gentile, i lean towards the Jews & Hashem, because i spent as a child more time with the Jewish side of my family and in the 1950s took part in all the festivals. I dont follow riedchristianitynor support J/C , but have a slight support for the non conformist church!  A kind Rabbi once took me under his wing and tried to teach me Hebrew, and i once won a junior Hebrew book at school [1960] I have been persecuted myself because of my Jewish sounding surname, all our familys dead only me a nd mothers left, maters a good yakel woman now nearly 90, she have been rewarded for her kindness to the Jews!

Wow, very interesting story there Maelgwyn... Very interesting indeed. It is very good that you have a good relationship with Jews and Judaism. We Jews suggest that as long as a person keeps the seven Noachide laws they are righteous in G-ds eyes and can be assured of a place in the world to come. It sounds like you have a good understanding of what it takes to be a righteous among the nations.

We believe that Hebrew is the Holy Tongue and understanding it is essential to understand the secrets of the Torah. I can read the pronunciation of the words but have only minor understanding of biblical Hebrew. When I daven/pray I use the Hebrew words from the prayer book while concentrating on the word and its meaning as I understand it in english.

[edu]

Rambam in his work Mishna Torah, Hilchot Avodat Cochavim (Laws Regulating How We Deal With Idolatry) writes in his first chapter, how he believes idolatry came into existence and how our ancestor Avraham, started the process of educating the masses about the truth of Monotheism.
I found a translation online at http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/MadaAkum.html
I have not had the time in depth to check out word for word, how reliable is the translation, but from a brief look I get the impression that it is on the whole okay. If someone knows otherwise please infrom me.

CHAPTER ONE

This chapter discusses the evolution of idolatry, until Abraham came and recognised God, and made His oneness made known throughout the world.

1) In the days of Enosh, the people deviated, and the counsel of the wise people degenerated into stupidity. Enosh himself was amongst those who deviated. Their mistaken reasoning was that since God created the skies and spheres as part of nature, and placed them high up [in the skies], and gave them dignity, and that they are servants who serve Him, it would be appropriate to laud, glorify and honour them as well. It is the will of the Almighty to make great and to dignify those who make Him great and honour Him, in the same way that a king wants to honour the servants who serve him - such is the honour of a king. Once this matter was decided upon, they proceeded to build temples to the stars, to bring sacrifices to them, to laud and glorify them verbally and to bow down to them, in order to attain [by these means] the will of the Creator by their opinions, which were evil. This was the core of idolatry, but the knowledgeable worshippers did not deny the existence of God by saying that only such-and-such a star exists. This is what Jeremiah said: "Who would not fear You, King of the nations? For to You it is fitting, for among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms there is none like You. Stupid and senseless are they all - the teaching of their vain idols is but wood!"; that is to say that everyone knows that just God exists, but their mistake and foolishness was to imagine that idolatry was God's will.

2) After some time, prophets of falsehood arose, and said that the Almighty had commanded them to serve such-and-such a star, to bring sacrifices to it, to offer drink sacrifices to it and to build a temple containing its form to it, in order that all people -including women, children and ignoramuses - will be able to bow down to it. Each of these prophets made known a form which he had invented himself, and claimed that it was the form of such-and-such a star which had been made known to him in a prophecy. In this manner, people started to make figures in the temples, under trees and on the tops of mountains and hills, and they congregated and bowed down to them. The prophets said that it was a form which brought good and bad, and that it was fitting to serve and fear it. The prophets said that through this service one will multiply and be successful, and issued instructions concerning what may and may not be done. Other prophets of falsehood began to make themselves known, and said that the star itself, or a sphere or angel, had spoken to them about how to be served, and what may or may not be done. This matter, namely the worship of forms in different manners, the offering of sacrifices to them and the bowing down to them, became propagated throughout the whole world. Owing to the passage of time, the honoured and fear-inducing Name was forgotten by all of nature, and was not recognised. Everybody, women and children included, knew only their forms of wood and stone, and the temples of stone, which, from childhood, they had been educated to bow down to, worship and take the name of for oaths. The wise people amongst them, such as the priests, imagined that there is no God, but only the stars and spheres, because of whom they made representative figures. But as for the Creator, there was not a single person who recognised Him, except for various individuals, such as Hanoch, Methuselah, Noah, Shem and Eber. Things continued in this manner until Abraham the Patriarch, supporter of the world, was born.

3) Once Abraham was weaned, he, as a child, began contemplating and thinking day and night, and wondered how a sphere could follow a fixed path without being directed. If so, who directed it? Surely it would be impossible for it to rotate on its own! Abraham did not have a mentor, but was immersed amongst the stupid idolaters of Ur Casdim, where everyone, including his mother and father, served idols, as did he. In his heart, however, he continued to contemplate, until he realised the way of truth and understood the ways of righteousness from nature, and knew that there is a God who directs the spheres, created the world, and besides whom there is none other. He also knew that the whole world was erring, and knew that what caused the mistake was that they [had] worshipped the stars and figures for so long that the truth had vanished. Abraham was forty years old when he recognised his Creator. Once he achieved this, he began to reason with the inhabitants of Ur Casdim and to argue with them, saying that by serving idols they were not following the way of truth. He broke their images, and began to proclaim that it is not fitting to serve anyone other than God, and to Him it is fitting to bow down and to offer drink sacrifices and sacrifices to, so that all creation will recognise Him. Abraham also proclaimed that it was fitting to break and destroy all the figures, so that nobody will err on account of them, like those who imagined that there is no God except for their idols did. Since people were listening to him, the king, Nimrod, sought to kill him, but a miracle was performed for Abraham, and he went to Haran, where he got up and proclaimed to the whole world that there is just one God in the world, whom it is fitting to worship. He went and gathered people together from cities and kingdoms, until he reached the land of Canaan, where he continued his proclamations, as it is written, "...and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God". Since agnostics were coming to him with questions about this matter, he would answer each person [in a way] so that he would return to the way of truth, until thousands and tens of thousands came to him. These were the people of the house of Abraham. He placed this important principle in their way of thinking, wrote books, and taught it to his son Isaac. Isaac also brought people back [to the way of truth], and taught it to Jacob, instructing him to teach as well, who then taught and brought back those who accompanied him. Jacob the Patriarch taught all his sons, but distinguished Levi, appointing him as head, making him stay in a seminary to teach the way of God and to fulfil the commandments of Abraham. He commanded his [other] sons not to cease supporting the children of Levi, in order that this teaching would not be forgotten. This matter became more and more publicized amongst the children of Jacob and those who accompanied them, and a nation who knew God was established in the world. This was only until Israel was in Egypt, where they learned the ways of the Egyptians, and worshipped idols like they did, with the exception of the tribe of Levi, who remained in the ways according to the commandments of the Patriarchs. The tribe of Levi never served idols. Not a lot of time passed and Israel was almost loathed [by God], and the core principle which Abraham initiated was extirpated. The children of Jacob returned to the mistakes of the nations, and to their straying from the true path. Out of love and out of keeping the covenant made with Abraham, God sent Moses our Teacher, chief of all the Prophets. Since Moses prophecised and God chose Israel as an inheritance, He crowned them with commandments, and made know to them the way to worship Him, and what the law regarding those who serve idols and those who err to pursue them is.

This translation is copyright (c) Immanuel M. O'Lvey, 1993. This translation may be distributed in any form (on disk, printed, etc.) provided that it is done so on a non-profit basis and that this copyright and conditions message is left attached. The text used for this translation was the Rambam Le'Am, published by Mossad Ha'Rav Kook, Jerusalem. Words in the text that are in square brackets do not appear in the Rambam's writings. British spelling has been used, and Sephardit pronunciation has been used for words and phrases that have been transliterated. Comments are welcome by email - [email protected].

[muman613]

I have heard that story of the evolution of idolatry in some of the shuirs I have listened to... Interesting stuff.

[maelgwyn]

ZY Gazunt to you all!

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

WOW! I need to read more of the older posts.