Author Topic: What Judaism is not.  (Read 7190 times)

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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #50 on: December 26, 2011, 08:27:09 PM »
Yes, I mean Matrix the movie and yes, consumerism is wrong--but at the same time, if there were no Christmas and Hanukkah shopping at all, don't you think it would harm the economy?

In any event, that shoe-craze was just ridiculous though.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #51 on: December 26, 2011, 08:37:15 PM »
Yes, I mean Matrix the movie and yes, consumerism is wrong--but at the same time, if there were no Christmas and Hanukkah shopping at all, don't you think it would harm the economy?


 Not sure if you were asking me that question, but I'm not against people shopping and spending $ (obviously if its not my $, but their own).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Meerkat

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #52 on: December 26, 2011, 08:57:44 PM »
......



wow, things like that make me look forward to idiocracy, that was really funny.

Offline Lisa

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #53 on: December 26, 2011, 09:26:42 PM »
Did you see those 'Air Jordan' riots? Someone did some incredible marketing to make people want them so badly, heck they are just sneakers...


Uh, Muman, those sneaker riots were not the fault of Nike's marketing and advertising people.  It's all about ghetto blacks acting like ghetto blacks with their evil culture of violence if they don't get their way. 

Tell me, have you seen any white people beating each other up over the latest iPads?  I don't think so.  If anything, they just patiently waited in line at the Apple store for their chance to buy one. 

The fact of the matter is, people have free will.  No one was holding a gun to those womens heads and telling them they had to fight each other.  They chose to act like barbarians over a stupid pair of sneakers. 

Offline muman613

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #54 on: December 26, 2011, 09:40:10 PM »
Uh, Muman, those sneaker riots were not the fault of Nike's marketing and advertising people.  It's all about ghetto blacks acting like ghetto blacks with their evil culture of violence if they don't get their way.  

Tell me, have you seen any white people beating each other up over the latest iPads?  I don't think so.  If anything, they just patiently waited in line at the Apple store for their chance to buy one.  

The fact of the matter is, people have free will.  No one was holding a gun to those womens heads and telling them they had to fight each other.  They chose to act like barbarians over a stupid pair of sneakers.  

I was about to get to that... It is the same thing with the iPad fury. Do you really think that the device is that much better to cause people to line up for it and pay ridiculous amounts of money for? Sure I knew someone was going to point out who it was who was rioting in those videos.... Even my Mexican friend who I showed it to was aware who was rioting there...

But my point, which I hope someone can understand here, is that the problem is not placed squarely on those who rioted. I am placing the blame on those who marketed these sneakers... Remember these are not your 'K-mart special' sneakers... These are $180 a pair sneakers which can be resold on the net for $500 a pop... So you see that they mass marketed these sneakers.... We looked at the marketing which Air Jordan did by watching the commercials on You-Tube.... They are using the most basic marketing techniques and yet through only making so many sneakers the demand greatly outstripped the supply, and the media which doesn't care about the outcome eats this story up.

My point, which I have heard several rabbis discuss, is that consumerism and demand for the latest thing for the sake of just having it because others have it is stupid. If a person must constantly buy a wardrobe just because other people are wearing the current fashion is shallow. It is good to have what you want, and to have what you need, but you should be satisfied with the things you have.

I don't rush out to buy the latest phones even though my carrier constantly is giving me upgrade dollars. Why don't I? Because I am satisfied with the phone which I have. I am sure there will come a time I will want to upgrade but I will wait till that time and not just because I can.

Let me just say that I believe people should enjoy the things they buy if they can afford them. It is a problem when people over-spend just to have things that they don't need in order to appear like others. I sure would not stand in line for an iPod, nor would I stand for sneakers. And sure it is every ones choice what they do with their money.... But I just hope people are thankful for what they have...

I consider the 'Matrix' to be the big medias control on people through TV and Movies.... This is what brought up this subject..

PS: There is 'free will' so much as the environment we are in is pure. When we are inundated with messages which contradict moral behavior without any wisdom to resist it there is danger that society is barreling down the wrong tracks...

« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 09:45:22 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #55 on: December 26, 2011, 09:56:25 PM »
I realize we are off-topic by now but I would like to add this insight from the Jewish writing 'Pirkie Avot/Wisdom of Fathers':

I thought about Mishnah 6 Perek 9 which is:

"Rabbi Yossi ben (son of) Kisma said: One time I was walking along the way and a certain man met me. He greeted me and I returned the greeting. He said to me: 'Rabbi, where are you from?' I responded: 'I am from a large city of scholars and scribes.' He said to me: 'Rabbi, would you be willing to dwell among us in our place, and I will give you hundreds of thousands of gold coins, precious stones and pearls?' I said to him: 'Even if you would give me all the silver, gold, precious stones, and pearls in the world, I would not dwell anywhere other than a place of Torah.' So too it was written in the Book of Psalms by David, King of Israel: 'The Torah of Your mouth is better to me than thousands of gold and silver [coins]' (119:72). And further, when a person departs this world neither his silver, gold, precious stones, nor pearls accompany him, but only his Torah study and good deeds, as it is written: 'When you walk it will guide you, when you lie down it will protect you, and when you arise it will speak for you' (Proverbs 6:22). 'When you walk it will guide you' -- in this world; 'when you lie down it will protect you' -- in the grave; 'and when you arise it will speak for you' -- in the World to Come. And it says: 'To Me is silver and gold says the L-rd of hosts' (Haggai 2:8)."



http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter6-9.html

Buying the World to Come
By Rabbi Dovid Rosenfeld

Chapter 6, Mishna 9


The lesson of this week's mishna is fairly straightforward. Torah study and good deeds possess far greater intrinsic value than material wealth. R. Yossi would much prefer living his life immersed in Torah study than immersed in wealth. Our riches, belongings and portfolios will part company with us at the grave (if our portfolios even make it that far), leaving our souls none the better. Our Torah study and good deeds, however, are eternal; in fact, their true value will only truly be appreciated after our deaths, when they accompany us before our Creator.

The wording of our mishna, however, is not so straightforward -- and perhaps there is more to see than the simple lesson above. Presumably, R. Yossi is quoting an actual conversation he had with a stranger. If so, why upon being asked where he's from did he give such a quizzical response? Why didn't he answer the question posed: "Where are you from?" "I'm from Jew Town, U.S.A." If pressed further "What kind of place is that?", he might have answered: "It's a big city with lots of ultra-orthodox Jews." Why instead did R. Yossi immediately offer this unsolicited and rather affected response? ("Not only am I great, but I live and associate with great scholars alone.")

The questioner then spares no time. He is immediately willing to offer the rabbi exorbitant sums to lure him to his own town. It seems an unusual offer: Why is he so anxious to invite the rabbi if the whole concept of a single scholar -- let alone a large town of them -- seems so foreign to him?

Even further, however, why didn't R. Yossi take up the offer? The stranger wasn't asking him to refrain from his Torah study; he seemed to *want* a rabbi in his town. If so, why couldn't the rabbi take up the offer, begin living in comfort, and continue with his studies? Did he insist on living in poverty rather than wealth? Do not the Sages state, "A poor man is considered dead?" Or was he such a novice that he required a large Jewish infrastructure for his studies?

Even more difficult, why didn't R. Yossi take up the offer and go *teach* Torah? Wouldn't it have been equally worthy -- if not more worthy -- to go to a place lacking in Torah knowledge in order to spread the faith far and wide? Was R. Yossi planning to forever lock himself up in his own ivory tower, never venturing beyond the confines of his city of scholars? Wouldn't this have been a fantastic opportunity -- all expenses paid -- to spread his Torah knowledge to others, to the vast multitude of Jews less fortunate than he?

To truly understand the dialogue of our mishna, we must place ourselves in the shoes of the participants. What inspired the stranger -- friendly enough to be first to extend a greeting -- to ask R. Yossi where he came from? Clearly, he saw a person of unusual appearance, a man with a long beard, payes (sidelocks), long frock coat, black hat, etc. (I'm obviously giving the modern equivalent of our mishna's scenario -- but I'm sure the concept applied equally well back then. The man instantly recognized R. Yossi as a rabbi.) To him R. Yossi was an oddity, something out of a novel, not a real-life character. And he asked him, with sincere amusement: "Are you for real?" "Are there still real people like you nowadays, in the 21st century?" It was not confrontation which roused this friendly stranger to pose his question. He just could not fathom such an anachronism, such a quaint and antiquated figure walking the streets as a regular person. "Are people like you really found nowadays, in the modern world?"

R. Yossi could likely have talked himself out what most of us would have considered an awkward situation. Most of us do not like being noticed or standing out in a crowd. We go to great lengths to blend in with our surroundings, even if among polite and fully-respecting Gentiles. So R. Yossi might have easily been tempted to come up with some kind of excuse. ("Oh, we're doing a screening of 'Fiddler on the Roof' just outside town. I took a break to go out and look for a beer." Or: "Just brought the horse and buggy in from rural Pennsylvania for a monthly stock-up. I thankest thee for thine most gracious greetings!" (The latter approach was supposedly once used successfully by a Chassidic Jew.))

R. Yossi, however, held his ground. He felt no need for excuses or apologies. "I come from a big city where everyone resembles me." What did he mean to say? I'm not an anachronism. There is a whole city of people like me. We are real people, part of a vibrant and bustling metropolis, and very much a part of the "real" world. Is a city not "modern" or "real" if it doesn't have bars, pool halls, and blocks of ill-repute? So, just as affably as the questioner wondered out loud where such people exist today, R. Yossi gently but firmly asserted that such people with such lifestyles certainly do exist. They are alive and well, part of a thriving culture, and see no reason to "modernize" themselves in order to blend in.

The dialogue of our mishna continues. The stranger immediately offers the rabbi a coveted rabbinic post -- asking him to come join his community. No doubt he admired R. Yossi for his convictions -- perhaps even more so for proudly standing up to this friendly confrontation. And he made an offer no rabbi could refuse (so he thought). "We could use a man of your convictions in our temple. I'll get your nomination through the synagogue committee. No price is too high."

R. Yossi, however, rightly saw the fatal flaw of the stranger's words. He was talking the language of money, and money talks: "Nothing in life you can't buy. We'd like to have a rabbi like you. It will give our temple a touch of class, some old-fashioned authenticity. You name the price, and we'll meet it." No doubt, the stranger also talked another closely-related language, that of honor: "We'll be the talk of the town. We'll proudly sow off our "real" rabbi to the temple down the block. Our membership will skyrocket (so long, ahem, as the rabbi answers to the board and knows his place (and remembers who hired whom!))."

R. Yossi recognized, quite accurately, the language the stranger was talking. He wanted to buy Torah, to gain, through sheer purchasing power, a part of R. Yossi's greatness and convictions. This R. Yossi could not accept. One who humbly sits before the Sages may become a student of Torah. One who, possessing the financial means, sees the primacy of Torah study and wants to do his part can become a supporter of Torah. But if the money comes first -- is pursued and hoarded relentlessly -- and is subsequently used to "buy" Torah (or to buy pardons), this the rabbi would never accept. Such money was not worthy of supporting Torah. It had always been its own ends. It could not easily be translated into a means.

I once heard R. Zev Leff see this message in the wording of the stranger's request itself. He asked R. Yossi to "dwell among us in our place." The implication was not only to physically dwell in his city, but to dwell *among* them -- to be fully a part of their culture and society. The stranger wanted the rabbi to come down to their level and their standards. He showed not the slightest hint of willingness to change himself and to raise himself to the rabbi's greatness. This was because he was not looking for a rabbi to lead and inspire him to greater heights. He wanted to stay right where he was -- both physically and psychologically -- in a town of money and with his own personal riches and standard of living. He just wanted R. Yossi to come to him, giving his life a little rabbinic sanction, making the deal oh so sweet -- for both himself and the rabbi -- by means of his bottomless purse.

And again R. Yossi was not willing to accept such a deal, not for any amount of money. Just as the stranger showed no willingness to move up in life, so too was R. Yossi ill prepared to move down. And in this we have an important lesson. The Talmud (Sotah 21a) distinguishes between two individuals who want to support Torah study. The first embarks on his career from the start solely to support others in their Torah study. The second, however, pursues money for its own sake, and then afterwards attempts to buy his way into the World to Come by giving some of his money away. Regarding the latter, the Talmud applies the verse in Song of Songs (8:7) "If a man will give you all the wealth of his home for [your] love, utterly scorn him." As always, what is truly worthwhile in life can never be bought with money.

And the lesson is one which echoes until our times. To be sure, most people who amass fortunes do not do so initially in order to support Torah causes. We all seek our fortunes (most of us just not successfully). Yet the true question emerges when such a person decides to bestow his largess upon others less fortunate. Does he do so in order to expand himself and enhance his reputation even further? Is funding a Jewish institution a means of getting one's name inscribed on a building -- as well as lowering one's tax rate? Or is he giving charity because he recognizes the sanctity of Torah study and knows that money is only truly valuable if used towards such an ends. If money is still paramount in his life -- in every way -- he is attempting to buy his way into the World to Come -- and G-d does not accept bribes. If, however, the Torah is primary and his money becomes devoted to its service, then he transforms his riches, the very source of his complacency and physical prosperity, into something as sacred and eternal as the Torah itself.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #56 on: December 26, 2011, 10:03:16 PM »
I realize that that article does not address the topic I was trying to express... It does express the idea that we should use our wealth to make the world a better Torah world. Which does tie into the original topic. We should be using our resources to educate the young people about morality and Jews about Torah.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lisa

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #57 on: December 26, 2011, 10:08:01 PM »
As I see it Muman, marketers are free to be as creative as they like in trying to sell their products.  That doesn't mean lying.  It's up to mature adults to distinguish between a want and a need.  If it's a want, it should be something you can afford that gives you enjoyment and makes your life easier.  

As for the iPads, I don't know how good or bad those tablets are.  Being a Linux woman and a fan of open source software, I was never ever a Mac enthusiast.  

So if people want to wait on line to buy iPads, I don't care.  Waiting on line is not the same as beating someone up.  

As for those Nike sneakers, I place the blame squarely on the "women" who fought each other like animals.  Nowhere else.  Creating a limited supply of a product is not a new thing by any means.  Marketers do it all the time.  Take for example the Missoni for Target line of clothing and housewares.  That stuff sold out the very first day it came out.  And I have yet to hear of women beating each other up over those pieces.

Same thing with high end designer clothing.  Have you ever heard of a bunch of young socialites going at each other over a Gucci dress?  I doubt it.  

Anway Muman, I do agree with you that consumerism, just for the sake of "keeping up with the Joneses" is stupid.  In the long run, it doesn't make a person any happier or better.  Plus, if it was bought on credit, it only creates more money headaches.  

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #58 on: December 27, 2011, 02:42:41 PM »
בס''ד

The hatred that I see on this thread toward Charedi Jews is the type of sinat chinam that caused our 2000 year exile.  

I can only speak for my own comments, but if this refers to anything I said, this could not be farther from the truth.   Haredim are NOT the problem here.  It's a small faction within them that is attacking everyone, including other haredim!

Quote
There is a conflict here between the news media and religious Jews, and you are siding with the news media in their campaign to discredit Torah Judaism.

Unless you have some specific item to comment on in which the news media reported something inaccurately, I really don't care what the media says, and in my opinion they are irrelevant.  It has nothing to do with the media.   There is a small group of thugs in ramat bet shemesh who literally "occupied" and ransacked a dati leumi school that was opening up because they didn't want it located there.  Later on, they cursed and yelled at little girls on their way out of school while standing in a group along the sidewalk where the girls walk home.    This caused parents and volunteers to have to escort the girls home in the ensuing days since they were reporting being scared and intimidated by shouts and jeers.   In the past, this same group of thugs has attacked people physically in ramat bet shemesh for apparently not being frum enough in their eyes.  This is not something made up by the media.  And they are screaming at little girls calling them prutza.  The girls tell their parents what happened to them when they come home crying.  A local dati leumi shul organized a group to protect the girls on their way home.   That is not a media creation.  But this is what charedim do?  Hardly.  By defending this group of thugs and saying that we are attacking charedim, you are actually defaming charedim by suggesting that all charedim act this way or condone it.  Far from it.  Most haredim, like any reasonable person, would think this behavior by these thugs is sick.

Quote
I am not a Charedi Jew. I am a fervent Zionist. I have been condemned many times in my life by Charedi leaders. I have often been very critical of them myself, as we see in my latest video on the Satmar cult. But most Charedi Jews are not like Satmar. True, they are not like the Jewish heroes of Judea and Samaria who fight for the land of Israel, but they are still our brothers and sisters, they live in the Jewish homeland and they have large Jewish families which is vital to our survival.

I agree 100%

Quote
When there is an organized media lynch taking place against religious Jews, to side with the media is the worst thing anyone could do. That is the sole issue here.
  I have not "sided with the media."  If the media happens to report some facts that are actually accurate because they have an agenda and axe to grind, it does not make those facts go away by virtue of an evil entity reporting on them.  So whatever was reported inaccurately, you can point out specifically.  Otherwise, I am not relying on media reports to know what is happening in Beth Shemesh.   And in fact, what I said about these young thugs disobeying their rebbes by throwing rocks on Shabbat when specifically instructed not to by the ravs in RBS, was told to me by haredim I know there.

Quote
The evil traitor media is trying to convince Israeli Jews that Torah Judaism is bad. This is part of a cultural war between Torah Jews and assimilated self-hating Jews. To support the self-hating media, the feminazis and the corrupt politicians against the religious Jews is atrocious.


What some group of so-called "Zealots" is doing in RBS, IS bad.  But it is not Torah Judaism! And most adherents of Torah Judaism want nothing to do with this group and are actually victims of it.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 04:54:57 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2011, 02:45:21 PM »
I don't understand how the Charedi are worse than typical Israeli Jews that are completely secular and completely brainwashed and always support the Bolshevik Israeli government. They might not be Kahanists but few people are. If the NWO media is taking a side you can better believe it's the wrong side.

I really hope no one in this thread would think bad about charedim just because of some out of control thugs in RBS, and that is exactly one of the reasons why getting them under control is so important.   They are not what the vast majority of haredim (chassidic and litvak) are like.

Offline muman613

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #60 on: December 27, 2011, 03:16:54 PM »
KWRBT,

Do you think that these reporters have ANY respect of the Halacha of Tzniut? I dont think they do...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #61 on: December 27, 2011, 03:28:21 PM »
KWRBT,

Do you think that these reporters have ANY respect of the Halacha of Tzniut? I dont think they do...



 I think that is your problem. You are making it about the reporters vs. the Haredim, when in fact that is not the true issue. Way before the reporters and police got involved their were problems with these types of people. Only now is it being discussed publicly and getting the publicity it is, (perhaps for some (like Livnis) personal political ends) , BUT that is not the issue. We as a society should be able to get together and condemn people who are plainly wrong, Because THAT IS the issue. People sidetracking the issues and making this religion vs. state are actually causing the problems even more. You as an observant Jew (as am I- well I try), and as a Haredi (if you consider yourself that) should be the one protesting and speaking up against them to make it clear that they do not represent you. Those Haredim who sit quietly (and I mean mainly the leadership who's task it is to lead and to say what is needed for society) are actually helping those who are stereotyping them. and frankly I am very disappointed by most of the Haredi leadership for yett again remaining silent, and instead of dealing with the thugs only get defensive against the media reporting on them.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #62 on: December 27, 2011, 03:46:23 PM »
I think that is your problem. You are making it about the reporters vs. the Haredim, when in fact that is not the true issue. Way before the reporters and police got involved their were problems with these types of people. Only now is it being discussed publicly and getting the publicity it is, (perhaps for some (like Livnis) personal political ends) , BUT that is not the issue. We as a society should be able to get together and condemn people who are plainly wrong, Because THAT IS the issue. People sidetracking the issues and making this religion vs. state are actually causing the problems even more. You as an observant Jew (as am I- well I try), and as a Haredi (if you consider yourself that) should be the one protesting and speaking up against them to make it clear that they do not represent you. Those Haredim who sit quietly (and I mean mainly the leadership who's task it is to lead and to say what is needed for society) are actually helping those who are stereotyping them. and frankly I am very disappointed by most of the Haredi leadership for yett again remaining silent, and instead of dealing with the thugs only get defensive against the media reporting on them.

I am not Charedie, BTW.... I try to keep like Chassidim but I am pretty much a Baal Teshuva who still has a long way to go to complete observance.

I am certainly against those who use the Torah for their own glorification. I don't support those who spit on young girls. If I have not said that already let me clearly state that I don't support what is alleged to happen. Personally I don't like this whole issue because it has the capacity to cause more rifts in the religious Jewish people.

But you know {as you indicated} that the issue goes a lot deeper than this. On the heels of the issue concerning the officers being reprimanded for leaving during a woman singing.... The way they were intimidated and shamed before the world.... That is a very sad state to live in where your religious freedoms are trampled in the name of 'modernity'.

I wish that we can find some peace at the end of this story...



I found this on Carl in Jerusalems blog 'IsraelMatzav':


You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #63 on: December 27, 2011, 03:54:03 PM »
Muman- well exactly! We should be able to independently condemn those who attack religious girls school in the name of "Judaism" with the harshest of ways.
 And when the issue of women singing in the army comes up condemn those who are telling (and forcing) Torah observant Jews (men) to remain in these ceremonies where women sing, in the harshest ways as well.
But these are separate issues.  And in both cases people who are doing wrong should be condemned. These issues do not need to be and should not be put together and in fact its the criminals who are trying to tie these types of things into one.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #64 on: December 27, 2011, 03:56:40 PM »
Muman- well exactly! We should be able to independently condemn those who attack religious girls school in the name of "Judaism" with the harshest of ways.
 And when the issue of women singing in the army comes up condemn those who are telling (and forcing) Torah observant Jews (men) to remain in these ceremonies where women sing, in the harshest ways as well.
But these are separate issues.  And in both cases people who are doing wrong should be condemned. These issues do not need to be and should not be put together and in fact its the criminals who are trying to tie these types of things into one.

Interesting... But what is the solution? Certainly we condemn those who misrepresent the Torah. But what the media is going to do will be much worse... I am not giving either side favoritism but the loser will be the Jewish customs...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #65 on: December 27, 2011, 03:58:45 PM »
KWRBT,

Do you think that these reporters have ANY respect of the Halacha of Tzniut? I dont think they do...



I'm going to assume that some might have some respect for "modern orthodox".
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #66 on: December 27, 2011, 04:22:19 PM »
Interesting... But what is the solution? Certainly we condemn those who misrepresent the Torah. But what the media is going to do will be much worse... I am not giving either side favoritism but the loser will be the Jewish customs...



 The solution is to fight all the oppressors in the proper way. If one for example lives in Beit Shemesh and has children in school and also serves in the IDF what he should do?- When taking his kids to school fight those oppressors cursing at his kids, either physically or other ways (I would do it physically, but I can understand if someone does it other way). then when going to the IDF when seeing those who break Halacha and impose their way upon this person to also protest them- for example when having a women sing, to get up and leave the ceremony even against the orders of the IDF or any other organization. In any case the solution is to do the right thing.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #67 on: December 27, 2011, 04:47:33 PM »
KWRBT,

Do you think that these reporters have ANY respect of the Halacha of Tzniut? I dont think they do...



What reporters?

BTW, did you even read my posts in full?   I said specifically I am not relying on media reports to know what is happening in Beth Shemesh.    It is not the media making things up.   If they happen to report some of the things I already know are happening, fine, it's really irrelevant.     If you can point to something specifically that was reported inaccurately, then we can discuss that, and it's one more example of the sick evil of the Israeli media.     But that's REALLY NOT THE ISSUE HERE.

Young girls were harrassed on their way home from school by a bunch of thugs who believe that a dati leumi (national religious/religious zionist) school does not belong in RBS in the location it was built.     There is nothing sicker than these thugs, and whether the media points that out or not does not matter to me.  Even a broken watch can be accurate sometimes.  The media should burn in hell along with these so-called "zealots"

Offline heyuguys

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #68 on: December 27, 2011, 04:55:24 PM »
who are these haredi extremist to pass judgment on who is more jewish, one jew or another?

Offline muman613

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #69 on: December 27, 2011, 05:07:19 PM »
What reporters?

BTW, did you even read my posts in full?   I said specifically I am not relying on media reports to know what is happening in Beth Shemesh.    It is not the media making things up.   If they happen to report some of the things I already know are happening, fine, it's really irrelevant.     If you can point to something specifically that was reported inaccurately, then we can discuss that, and it's one more example of the sick evil of the Israeli media.     But that's REALLY NOT THE ISSUE HERE.

Young girls were harrassed on their way home from school by a bunch of thugs who believe that a dati leumi (national religious/religious zionist) school does not belong in RBS in the location it was built.     There is nothing sicker than these thugs, and whether the media points that out or not does not matter to me.  Even a broken watch can be accurate sometimes.  The media should burn in hell along with these so-called "zealots"

This event is all over Google.news which I use to get my news...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #70 on: December 27, 2011, 06:45:30 PM »
This event is all over Google.news which I use to get my news...



So let me ask you, does that make it untrue, by definition, because it appeared on google.news?
What I find "untrue" is the additional commentary being added by the journalists who try to paint Judaism and Jews negatively.   But facts being reported are indisputable.   And a person should be able to discern what is a fact, an event that took place, vs. what is opinion/commentary/editorial/so-called "analysis" being added in by the journalist.  You are certainly capable of this.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: What Judaism is not.
« Reply #71 on: December 27, 2011, 07:18:11 PM »
So let me ask you, does that make it untrue, by definition, because it appeared on google.news?
What I find "untrue" is the additional commentary being added by the journalists who try to paint Judaism and Jews negatively.   But facts being reported are indisputable.   And a person should be able to discern what is a fact, an event that took place, vs. what is opinion/commentary/editorial/so-called "analysis" being added in by the journalist.  You are certainly capable of this.

We must never forget:  be kind to the kind and cruel to the cruel.

Remember what happened with alon levy ysv and what he did to that little boy.  We condemn evil behavior even if a Jew were to do that.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein