Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
The Truth of Channukah
muman613:
--- Quote from: Sephirath Ben Baruch on January 08, 2012, 12:44:09 AM --- G-d does not leave the matters of morality in the hands of man. You say “Are you greater than our Rabbis?”
The question is “Are your Rabbis greater than Hashem?” If not, why contradict him?
--- End quote ---
I will continue this discussion tomorrow...
edu:
The rabbis of the Talmud held that the sources quoted by Sephirath ben Baruch are unreliable and according to the simple understanding of their words even held that it was forbidden to study them.
I heard a lenient view, but I can not recall in whose name it was said, that if it is learned as a flawed historical source and not as a biblical book, it is not outright forbidden.
Just as today, besides legitimate Judaism, you have new sects that distort it, such as, reform, conservative and reconstructionist, so too during second temple times you had heretical sects, such as the Sadducees, as well as a few more, which I will not mention here. Who knows what was the religious affiliation and/or bias of the book of Maccabees.
point 2, the menora of the Torah had seven branches not six. Six outer branches together with one central branch
point 3, there is actually a prohibition to make a seven branch menora for non-temple purposes (see for example, Talmud tractate Rosh Hashana page 24)
point 4, The book of Esther which is part of the Tanakh/Bible does call for the addition of the celebration of a holiday that is not mentioned in the Torah. For whatever, reason you wish to give, why that holiday with all its activities is permitted, so too this applies for lighting Hanuka candles (or wicks in oil).
point 5, According to Rashi the prohibition of adding to the Torah is not to add extra details to a mitzva written in the Torah. For example, not to add words to the bircat cohanim {priestly blessing} mentioned in Bamidbar/Numbers 6 verses 24 to 26. According to Rambam, the prohibition of adding to the Torah is that one is not allowed to identify a rabbinic commandment as if it a Torah commandment. But if you clearly identify that the source of a practice is rabbinic it is not a violation.
edu:
Another false point of Sephirath Ben Baruch that I have not previously addressed is his connection of Chanuka with the pagan Solstice ceremony
He is ignorant of the fact that the Jewish calendar is not solar. It is lunar based. Therefore Chanuka will not always fall on the days of the Soltice ceremony. Especially since during the 2nd Temple, the calendar was not fixed as it is today. Every year, it was up to the Sanhedrin to decide, if the year would contain 12 lunar months or 13 lunar months. Also the start of each month was determined by the Sanhedrin.
Furthermore, Sephirath Ben Baruch contradicts himself. He starts off clearly acknowledging that there was some celebration on the 25th of Kislev concerning the rededication of the Temple, a point clearly acknowledged by Orthodox Judaism and then he changes his mind and claims Chanuka is a Solstice ceremony, which is an outright lie and slander.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Sephirath Ben Baruch on January 07, 2012, 11:46:18 PM ---
To commemorating the mystical oil, the Rabbis decreed a blessing while lighting the candles, "Blessed art thou Lord, King of the universe, who has sanctified us with his commandments and commanded us to light Channukah candles". This addition to the mitzvah's is in direct violation of the Torah which demands of us, "You shall not add to the law which I command you, not shall you diminish from it" (Davarim - 4:2).
--- End quote ---
LOL, no it isn't. And neither is the blessing over the reciting of the Megillah.
You are spouting pure ignorance here. The "miracle of the oil" is certainly more stressed by the Talmud Bavli because of the danger of celebrating a revolution against the gentiles while living as subjects in galut to a gentile rulership, and also because Bavli Jews had no connection or awareness of military affairs or endeavors like those undertaken by the maccabees. And certainly this miracle may have evolved over time (was the miracle that the leftover oil was pure with the kohen gadol's seal? Was the miracle that the oil lasted longer than expected? But oil lasting longer than expected was a miracle that happened every day in the bet hamikdash). The true miracle was the guerilla victory over the illustrious and superior-trained, superior-armed seluecid greek army, by a bunch of peasants with faith in G-d and strict devotion to the guerilla warfare principles of their military commanders the Hashmonaim. But nonetheless, what you put here is mostly nonsense and weird speculation.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Sephirath Ben Baruch on January 08, 2012, 12:21:29 AM --- You put man's word over G-d's!
"You shall not add to the law which I command you, not shall you diminish from it" (Davarim - 4:2).
"All that I command you, you shall diligently do; you shall not add to it nor diminish from it" (Davarim - 13:1)
"Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and you be found a liar". (Mishlei - 30:6)
--- End quote ---
So you're going to stop celebrating Purim then?
Do you also not say Hallel? Afterall, where does the Torah specifically say do x y z. etc. You will have to throw out the entire religion if you think the scholars of Judaism (the prophets and then the chachamim who were their students and followers) have no say in anything we do.
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