Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
The Truth of Channukah
edu:
I will give you a modern example, where bias of the author determines which facts are reported, including miracle stories.
Tamar Yonah provides a list of modern war miracles that took place for Israeli soldiers in our time.
The Leftist media wishing to promote their leftists traitors, such as, Yitzchak Rabin and their secular agenda, will try as much as they can to avoid these types of stories, because they "help" the religious.
Quote describing, the youtube interview:
--- Quote ---G-d really loves His children, Israel. He shows it with the abundant miracles He has performed throughout the ages for His people. In this re-broadcast from 2006, Tamar interviews Commander (and Rabbi) Meir Hakak HaLevy as he shares true stories of miracles that took place on the battlefields where Israel has fought. Hear amazing stories of 'divine intervention' and spiritual experiences including angels appearing on the battlefield shielding our soldiers. This show is sure to send tingles down your spine!
--- End quote ---
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: edu on January 10, 2012, 03:28:31 AM ---quote by Kahane-Was-Right BTIf Maccabees 1 for example, was written by a Sadducee and I have no idea (having not even read the book, being somewhat afraid of the stringent view that there is a Talmudic prohibition to learn the book, although I have not thrown it out of my house when I was sent a free copy)
--- End quote ---
Talmudic prohibition to read maccabees I ? What?
I never heard of this being included in any kind of prohibition. What are you talking about?
--- Quote --- then it is obvious he would want to keep silent about oil miracles, because the Sadduccees were against Rabbinic commandments and interpretations.
--- End quote ---
But, if I'm not mistaken, the Talmud Yerushalmi is silent about oil miracles, and I know megillath taanith did not mention an oil miracle. Only in the scholia it is mentioned (written much later, added in Hebrew - megillath taanith itself was written in aramaic), and scholars actually are in debate over whether the original scholia added in actually contained mention of the oil or whether that was added in even later than the rest of the scholia. So this is not just a saduccee thing to be silent about an oil miracle.
It is specifically the Talmud Bavli which focuses intently on the oil miracle and it does so for rational and good reasons. But I also understand why this was not focused on or not even mentioned in other sources.
Also take a look at Pesiqta Rabbathi (9th century work)- It not only does not mention the miracle, it gives a different reason altogether for why we light the hanuka lights - It says because the Hashmonaim defeated the Greeks (then quotes a verse from Zacharia), then they entered the Bet Hamikdash and found 8 poles of iron, so they put them together (into a makeshift menorah) and lit candles on them. Guess where we also find this account of what they did when they entered the Bet Hamikdash for the first time since conquering it from the greeks - The book of the maccabees, supposedly written by a "saducee?" Again, I see no polemic in the work, and his account of the events is not disputed by our rabbis anywhere. And he too writes of a makeshift menorah put together out of scrap metal as the first ceremonial act upon re-entry to the Bet Hamikdash.
--- Quote ---Today, for example, the leftists media doesn't always have to lie. Usually, their main weapon is to ignore facts they don't like and magnify facts that fit in with their agenda. The same could theoretically be said for a Sadduccee author, talking about Chanuka.
Furthermore, the Jewish legal system always relies on 2 or more valid witnesses, to establish facts, even for the sake of giving the death penalty or determining marital status. If the Sages tell us there was an oil miracle and instituted a ceremony to recall the oil miracle, this at the very least has the strength of two witnesses.
--- End quote ---
Theoretically anyone could claim anything, but in my humble opinion, the scholars attributing book 1 to a sadducee and book 2 to a pharisee is guesswork based on speculation and has no bearing on the content of these works. It's very circumstantial evidence from what is inside them, but not from any actual bias demonstrated in the works. Therefore I find the point an irrelevant one since both books seem to be historically reliable for the most part and are not polemic in nature. And about witnesses, that seems to have nothing to do with this. When a chacham writes a halachic work, we don't require two witnesses to certify it's kosher. If it's written, and it's preserved, then we have it, and we can read the words. If not, then we can't. Similarly, lehavdil, for a historical work. Either it survives or it doesn't. You can consider the source, but there is no stamp or seal of approval placed on texts.
As to your claim that it is forbidden to read them, I can't understand how that could be possible. From what I understand, the Aruch Hashulchan uses an explanation right out of book 2 for why there are 8 days in the festival and how it is based on the holiday of Sukkot. (This is straight out of Maccabees II). And doesn't the Rambam in his description of hanuka in Mishne Torah utililze some material from Maccabees I as well? I forget now exactly how he describes it and would have to look it up again to confirm this.
muman613:
KWRBT,
The term 'prohibition' is a bit strong but the sages recommend that we not read these Apocryphal books...
See:
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/543,533/What-is-the-Jewish-view-on-the-Apocrypha.html
What is the Jewish view on the Apocrypha?
by Rabbi Yossi Marcus
The Apocrypha refers to books that remained outside the biblical canon, such as the Book of Maccabees, which deals with the story of Chanukah, and The Book of Ben Sira, which is a collection of Proverbs.
These books were not written with Divine inspiration and according to some contain ideas that are antithetical to true Judaism. Judaism therefore does not encourage one to read them. However, they do contain valuable info and wisdom and according to some opinions may be consulted appropriately.
See Talmud Sanhedrin 100b regarding the “external books.”
(Obviously the Christian Apocrypha is treated like all other books of Chrisitanity.)
See : http://halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_100.html#PARTb
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on January 11, 2012, 12:15:35 AM ---KWRBT,
The term 'prohibition' is a bit strong but the sages recommend that we not read these Apocryphal books...
See:
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/543,533/What-is-the-Jewish-view-on-the-Apocrypha.html
What is the Jewish view on the Apocrypha?
by Rabbi Yossi Marcus
The Apocrypha refers to books that remained outside the biblical canon, such as the Book of Maccabees, which deals with the story of Chanukah, and The Book of Ben Sira, which is a collection of Proverbs.
These books were not written with Divine inspiration and according to some contain ideas that are antithetical to true Judaism. Judaism therefore does not encourage one to read them. However, they do contain valuable info and wisdom and according to some opinions may be consulted appropriately.
See Talmud Sanhedrin 100b regarding the “external books.”
(Obviously the Christian Apocrypha is treated like all other books of Chrisitanity.)
See : http://halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_100.html#PARTb
--- End quote ---
Really, so any book that is outside the Biblical canon is forbidden? Do you honestly believe that?
And can Rabbi Yossie Marcus explain to me how he included the book of the maccabees in this prohibition?
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on January 11, 2012, 12:22:33 AM ---Really, so any book that is outside the Biblical canon is forbidden? Do you honestly believe that?
And can Rabbi Yossie Marcus explain to me how he included the book of the maccabees in this prohibition?
--- End quote ---
Book of Maccabees is an Apocryphal book, do you agree? It has been decided that it is not a part of the Jewish scriptures. This is not debatable. There was a decision made by the sages to exclude it.
Are you aware the Book of Maccabees is in the Christian bible?
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