Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
The Truth of Channukah
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Sephirath Ben Baruch on January 15, 2012, 10:41:52 PM ---
Point 3:The Holy Menorah should only be in Hashem's House of Sacrifice. The prohibition in the quote is correct. (We agree, right?)
--- End quote ---
But in hanukkah, we are not making the 7 branch menora for non-temple purposes (or for any purposes, we're not making replicas of the real thing. The hanukkiah looks different). So what is your point?
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Sephirath Ben Baruch on January 15, 2012, 10:41:52 PM ---This will be fun!
Point 1: Validate your sources!
Point 2: The Menorah of the Beit HaMidash had only 6 branches all connected to one stand tied into a base. There wasn't seven branches, four on one side or four on the other. "32 And six branches are running out from its sides, three branches of the lampstand from its one side and three branches of the lampstand from its other side. 33 Three cups shaped like flowers of almond are on the one set of branches, with knobs and blossoms alternating, and three cups shaped like flowers of almond on the other set of branches, with knobs and blossoms alternating. This is the way it is with the six branches running out from the lampstand." (Shemot 25:32-33) Okay, Eda... Do you overstand now?
Point 3:The Holy Menorah should only be in Hashem's House of Sacrifice. The prohibition in the quote is correct. (We agree, right?)
Point 4: Hashem through Malachi ordained Purim unlike Channukah.
--- End quote ---
Huh?
There was a debate before the scroll of Ester was adopted into the Tanakh precisely because of the reason that it was NOT clear that it was divinely ordained to do so, and sages looked for ways to find hints to it in the verses of Torah before they would accept it to make it amongst the sacred writings. (There was a dispute among the Sanhedrin with Mordechai one of the ones fighting on behalf of Esther that it should be included, but they were at first outnumbered!)
This dispute is discussed in the Talmud.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: edu on January 16, 2012, 04:06:59 AM ---For Kahane-Was-Right BT . The following is not my interpretation of the Chanuka Miracle, but it is based on how Rabbi Yisrael Ariel of Machon Hamikdash once explained the Chanuka miracle to me.
He taught at the time he gave the shiur ( I don't know what he holds today) that the Chashmonim in order to preserve the pure oil, made special types of wicks that could burn longer on less oil.
He didn't spell the following points out explicitly but If I understood correctly from him, the fact that these special wicks could fulfill all the halachic requirements without going out, was interpreted by the Babylonian Talmud as a miracle, while other sources such as Talmud Yerushalami, saw this as not being, so much out of the natural order of the laws of nature to label it as an explicit miracle.
--- End quote ---
Well, that's certainly a possibility. There are a number of interesting ways to understand the situation.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: edu on January 16, 2012, 04:06:59 AM ---A final point to Sephirath Ben Baruch. Ezra and the prophets who initiated the Second Temple did not build that Temple in accordance to the prophecy of Yechezkel. There were differences in the structure, size, etc.
Just as the architectural models were different. The laws of who could perform the sacrificial service were different.
Any valid Cohain, even not from the sons of Zadok, could perform the sacrificial offerings in the second Temple.
--- End quote ---
Indeed.
The Torah law is a vast corpus and contains many seeming contradictory verses and intricacies which the sages had to discern and unify into a legal system which does not always function in the most obvious manner due to the complexity of verses and contrasting sentiments from different verses which need to be interpreted and balanced. They inherited this job as a matter of tradition from the prophets and the men of the great assembly who were students under the prophets. (The prophets adopted this task from Moshe Joshua and the elders who came before the prophets and during their times). Johnny-come-lately's who want to crumble the whole system based on personal differences they have with one or a few individual matters decided within this traditional and authoritative edifice, have no credibility.
edu:
The Following is another difficulty in the words of Sephirath Ben Baruch
He says
--- Quote ---The Hashmoneans where not prophets infact they weren't even the Sons of Zadok (First High Priest to Jedidiah's Temple).
--- End quote ---
He then explains, that the Hashmoneans violated the command of the prophet
--- Quote ---But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near to Me to minister unto Me; and they shall stand before Me to offer unto Me the fat and the blood, saith the Hashem G-d." (Yechezchial 44:15) The Lord ordained for ministry the House of Zadok only
--- End quote ---
He then explains
--- Quote ---(note* It is likely that the origin of the term Sadducee is the same as Zadokite, after it passed through Greek translation.)
--- End quote ---
Well if you are contending that Sadducee is the same as Zadokite. And the Hashmoneans from the time of Yannai, adopted the Sadducee ideology and served sometimes as High Priest and nearly on a yearly basis chose a new High Priest, when it fit their interests (not from the house of Zadok, particularly). Then it turns out that you are saying that the followers of Zadok themselves, didn't believe that the words of the prophet Yechezkel/Ezekiel required them to abstain from offering sacrifices.
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