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Offline Sephirath

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The Truth of Channukah
« on: January 07, 2012, 11:46:18 PM »
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The origins of the popularly accepted sudo-holiday (Holy Day) called Channukah starts in the year 3595. It all begins with the Selelucid Greek empire hellenization of the Holy Land. Antiochus IV had established a set of decrees to destroy Torah and integrate the Jews into his empire and the larger world. The laws mandated every household to set up a Sun shrine at the entrance of each home. In all the towns there was an epicenter of spiritual sedition established throw pagan alters on top of all the high hills. Right up to the Beit HaMikdash being desecrated with swine blood in tribute to false gods. Some of Israel forsook the G-d of Abraham in replace for integrating within the state. Though most preferred martyrdom over consuming the pig sacrifices. Now there was in the hills of Samaria a place called Modi'in, here lived a man named Matityahu the Hasmoneans. As the whole town was gathered in the city square for idol worship Matthias and his sons ascended the podium and turned on the Seleucid authorities, slaughtering them in front of all the village. They quickly became outlaws and was forced to flee to the mountains. Many joined in rake to resist against the persecutions. The first book of Maccabees describes these evil rulings.

 

"(44) And the king sent letters by messengers to Jerusalem and the cities of Judah; he directed them to follow customs strange to the land, (45) to forbid burnt offerings and sacrifices and drink offerings in the sanctuary, to profane Sabbaths and feasts, (46) to defile the sanctuary and the priests, (47) to build altars and sacred precincts and shrines for idols, to sacrifice swine and unclean animals, (48) and to leave their sons uncircumcised. They were to make themselves abominable by everything unclean and profane, (49) so that they should forget the law and change all the ordinances. (50) And whoever does not obey the command of the king shall die." (1 Maccabees 1:44-50)

 

after a bloody three year revolution war the armies of Matthias and his son Y'hudhah HaMakabi came to Jerusalem and found the Temple in ruins. The story goes that on entering they found the Menorah and a single vial of oil that remained sealed. This oil container allegedly lasted for eight days. The Rabbis elaborate that the 8-branched Channukah candelabrum represents the eight days of light. Yet interesting to note the authentic Menorah in the Holy Temple consist of only 6 branches as described in Shemot - 25:37.

 

To commemorating the mystical oil, the Rabbis decreed a blessing while lighting the candles, "Blessed art thou Lord, King of the universe, who has sanctified us with his commandments and commanded us to light Channukah candles". This addition to the mitzvah's is in direct violation of the Torah which demands of us, "You shall not add to the law which I command you, not shall you diminish from it" (Davarim - 4:2).  Similarly, we read "All that I command you, you shall diligently do; you shall not add to it nor diminish from it" (Davarim - 13:1). again "Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and you be found a liar". (Mishlei - 30:6) By creating decrees and proclaiming them to be the inherent word of G-d these Rabbis effectively made themselves false-prophets. Also altering the Holy Menorah from its divine image is a blatant corruption. In fact the original freedom fighters of Zion 2200 years ago had nothing to do with these perverse acts, all being they where not innocent themselves, As we will see.

 

Let consider this story of the one oil vile lasting eight day. Is there any historical evidence to collaborate the authenticity of this narrative? Our main sources are the 1-2 Maccabees witch are actually parallel accounts by two different authors. Here are the verses depicting the arrival of the Hasmoneans on Mount Moriah.

 

"(36)When the Maccabees first liberated Mt. Zion, they were horrified to find it desecrated: "(37) ...all the army assembled and they went up to Mount Zion. (38) And they saw the sanctuary desolate, the altar profaned, and the gates burned. In the courts they saw bushes sprung up as in a thicket, or as on one of the mountains. They saw also the chambers of the priests in ruins. (39) Then they rent their clothes, and mourned with great lamentation, and sprinkled themselves with ashes." (1 Maccabees 4:36-39)

 

"(48) They also rebuilt the sanctuary and the interior of the temple, and consecrated the courts. (49) They made new holy vessels, and brought the lamp stand, the altar of incense, and the table into the temple. (50) Then they burned incense on the altar and lighted the lamps on the lamp stand, and these gave light in the temple. (51) They placed the bread on the table and hung up the curtains. Thus they finished all the work they had undertaken." (1 Maccabees 4:48-51)
              
 

"(52) Early in the morning on the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month, which is the month of Chislev, in the one hundred and forty-eighth year, (53) they rose and offered sacrifice, as the law directs, on the new altar of burnt offering which they had built. (56) So they celebrated the dedication of the altar for eight days, and offered burnt offerings with gladness; they offered a sacrifice of deliverance and praise (59)" (1 Maccabees 4:52-59)

 

After reviewing both historical chronologies depicting the rebellion we make an astonishing discovery. Not once was any oil miracle mentioned in the text. What does that mean? The silence speaks measures more then any excuse. Moreover we find in these records the authentic origins to this widespread day. Upon the 25th of Kislev in the third anniversary of the Greeks violating the Beit Hamikdash, the Jews re-dedicated the alter. Thus the name Channukah, or chanukat ha-mizbeach חֲנֻכַּת הַמִּזְבֵּחַ meaning "dedication of the altar"!

 

"(58) There was very great gladness among the people, and the reproach of the Gentiles was removed. (59) Then Judas and his brothers and all the assembly of Israel determined that every year at that season the days of dedication of the altar should be observed with gladness and joy for eight days, beginning with the twenty-fifth day of the month of Chislev." (1 Maccabees 4:58-59)

 

"(5) It happened that on the same day on which the sanctuary had been profaned by the foreigners, the purification of the sanctuary took place, that is, on the twenty-fifth day of the same month, which was Kislev. (6) And they celebrated it for eight days with rejoicing, in the manner of the feast of booths, remembering how not long before, during the feast of booths, they had been wandering in the mountains and caves like wild animals. (7) Therefore bearing ivy-wreathed wands and beautiful branches and also fronds of palm, they offered hymns of thanksgiving to him who had given success to the purifying of his own holy place. (8 ) They decreed by public ordinance and vote that the whole nation of the Jews should observe these days every year." (2 Maccabees 10:5-8)

 

Reviewing these text we find a lack of references to miracle oil yet, in the contrary the consideration is to the dedication of the altar. Imagine how Y'hudhah HaMakabi attributed this day. From the verses above we are enlightened that he and his military brigade began by gathering beautiful palms and branches with bands of ivy, all in the manner of the Feast of Booths. What was occurring in those distressed days was none other then a combination of the dedication of the alter a second Sukkot celebration. Thus it was so much identified as such that we read "the feast of booths in the month of Chislev"!2 (Maccabees 1:9) Along with the quote we must rely upon our second testimony, "Since on the twenty-fifth day of Chislev we shall celebrate the purification of the temple, we thought it necessary to notify you, in order that you also may celebrate the feast of booths". (2 Maccabees 1:18) Channukah was essentially a Sukkot sheni, deriving from ideal of a missed Pesach in the Torah.

 

What gave the Hasmonean dynasty and the Israeli people the right to establish a second Sukkot? As priory noted in 2 Maccabees 10:8 the consecration was ordained by democracy. Yet the Word of Hashem never proclaimed these decrees to anoint another Holy Day. Even if the Lord allowed practicing the Feast of Tabernacles late, the Maccabees were forty days delayed from the fifteenth of the eighth month! Considering that the celebration would only occur once instead of annually. However Jeroboam once tried this move exactly a month after Sukkot, "(32) And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month." (1Kings 12:32-33). This act was one of his high sins, "(30) for the sins of Jeroboam which he sinned, and wherewith he made Israel to sin; because of his provocation wherewith he provoked the LORD, the G-d of Israel." (1Kings 15:30; also 1Kings 16:31).

 

So why does the celebration consist of eight days? Well let us hear from their own mouths "(6) And they celebrated it for eight days with rejoicing, in the manner of the feast of booths, remembering how not long before, during the feast of booths, they had been wandering in the mountains and caves like wild animals." (2 Maccabees 10:6) So Sukkot last for seven day yet, the day after is called "Eighth of Assembly" or Shemini Atseret שְׁמִינִי עֲצֶרֶת. Shown here, "(36)  Seven days ye shall bring an offering made by fire unto Hashem; on the eighth day shall be a holy convocation unto you; and ye shall bring an offering made by fire unto Hashem; it is a day of solemn assembly; ye shall do no manner of servile work." (VaYikra 23:36 also in BaMidbar 29:35)

 

It is quite questionable that as all this was occurring the Greco-Roman World had an eight day tradition in the same season. It seems this Saturnalia was a heavy influence in connection to Channukah. The ideal behind the Winter Solstice ceremony to the surrounding nations went as such. As the days begin to become shortened the pagan worshipers would assume that the Sun was 'dying' an so to give energy up they would light lamps and, candles. After the Solstice the days would gradually lengthen in time thus confirming to your ancient heathen that his tidings where accepted. Now concern yourself to this thought, both remembrances where eight days long and both trademarks were to light candles. Is this all coincidental? Never. Moreover, these facts add to the understanding of why Y'hudhah HaMakabi chose to fabricate an anniversary. In alternative of any other missed Holy Day during the three year revolution why was Sukkot given special consideration?  Well the Feast of Booths was an eight day celebration that had a relative relation date wise to Saturnalia.

 

Thought it may be difficult imagining any Hellenization of the Hasmonean's there must be evidence to ponder. In the Talmud is a brayta from around the year of 3800 it reads- "When Adam saw the day getting gradually shorter, he said, ‘Woe is me, perhaps because I have sinned, the world around me is being darkened and returning to its state of chaos and confusion; this then is the kind of death to which I have been sentenced from Heaven!’ So he began keeping an eight days’ fast. But as he observed the Winter Solstice and noted the day getting increasingly longer, he said, ‘This is the world's course’, and he set forth to keep an eight days’ festivity" (avodah zarah 8a) i.e. Saturnalia along with Kalenda. Was the verse above another attempt to justify assimilation? Yes, presented is a devised tail to vindication some rabbi nearly 4000 years after the pretend incident. In the same rite, by comparison all the Mishnah ties to Channukah are void and invalid.

 

Is it possible Israel could have adopted elements of Sun worship by influence of the nations? Its more then possible, its reality. Just as in the days of old when our people lusted after false gods made of wood and stone. In these times of past the precious new born were consumed upon flames, men and women alike would sacrifice lives to lies! The Prophets spoke with fierce indignation against all these corruptions. "(3) The ox knoweth his owner, and the donkey his master's crib; but Israel doth not know (me), My people doth not consider." (Yisheyah - 1:3)  Yet the seductions of the goyim's acceptance prevailed in the will of Israel. Even today during this Winter season most family's have adopted a custom of gift giving. The jealously of our children pressured their parents into adapting to the current culture and Christmas. This act was never heard of one hundred and fifty years ago! But who care right? Well, Your grandparents would be bathing in their own tears. In ancient Rome during the Winter Solstice the ruling class forced their Jewish citizen to run naked throw the cities while being pelted with stones and rotten fruit. Thousands of Jews throwout the centuries where rapped, beaten and, murdered. On top of all this the 'crown' forced the Jewish community to give gifts to the state on the pain of death. This behavior evolved into gift giving generally, then in time became linked to Santa Clause.

 

Israel must make teshuvah and return to Jehovah. The mighty G-d who saved us from Mitzrime's slavery and, fought for us in the days of redeeming Zion with Yehoshua, the one and only who strengthened Y'hudhah HaMakabi and his poorly equipped band of 3000 to overcome Antiochus IV with 60,000 infantrymen and 5000 cavalry. The Almighty G-d who brought the Sons of Jacob back from an eighteen hundred and seventy seven year galut. "(14) Oh that My people would hearken unto Me, that Israel would walk in My ways! (15) I would soon subdue their enemies, and turn My hand against their adversaries.(16) The haters of Hashem should dwindle away before Him; and their punishment should endure for ever." (Tehilim 81:14-16) This is the time for redemption, may you be amongst the triumphant.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 12:13:54 AM by Sephirath Ben Baruch »

Offline muman613

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2012, 12:02:22 AM »
This is hogwash.... Another attempt to discredit Jewish belief... The Talmud answers what Chanukah is... The 'Book Of Maccabees' is Apocrypha and not a part of Jewish scripture..



By the way, we also say a blessing every Shabbat 'Who commanded us to light Shabbat Candles' and yet that is not a Biblical commandment. So what? The Talmud explains why the Rabbis could institute such prayers.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/767153/jewish/Where-does-the-Torah-say-to-light-Shabbat-candles.htm
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 12:13:00 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lisa

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2012, 12:08:16 AM »
Also, didn't either Matityahu or Judah Maccabee kill a self hating Jew who decided to make a public pagan sacrifice? 

Offline muman613

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2012, 12:17:49 AM »
See this article about how the Rabbis can institute commands via the Oral Law...

http://ravkooktorah.org/HAAZINU59.htm

Ha'azinu: The Source of Rabbinical Authority

Numerous rabbinical decrees were designed to protect Torah laws. For example, the Sages extended the Torah's prohibition of eating milk and meat together to include fowl, since it confused people who did not distinguish between fowl and 'real' meat.

There are, however, a few cases in which the Sages went even further, and created totally new mitzvot. The rabbinical mitzvot of lighting Sabbath candles, reading the Purim megilah, and lighting Chanuka lights, have no direct basis in Torah law. They are not extensions or protective measures. They are brand-new mitzvot, unrelated to any Torah law. By what right could the Sages create them?

Even more audacious, the rabbis decreed that over these rabbinical commandments we make the blessing, "Blessed are You ... Who has commanded us to ..." When did God command us to light Sabbath candles and read the megilah?

The Talmud (Shabbat 23) gives two sources in the Torah itself for the rabbinical authority to establish new mitzvot:

* "Do not stray to the right or left from the word that (the high court) will declare to you." (Deut. 17:10)

* "Ask your father and he will tell you; question your elders, and they will respond." (Deut. 32:7)

Why two sources?

Rav Kook explained that God-given commandments naturally lead towards the goal of absolute good. This is understandable, as God knows the future and is aware of all implications of any decree. A human-made law, on the other hand, even those designed by the best and the brightest, will never be able to achieve the same exact effect as a Divine decree.

Of course, the Talmudic Sages were blessed with divine inspiration ("ruach hakodesh"), in addition to the logic and reasoning that are an integral aspect of the Oral Law. They used these gifts in order to attain results similar to God-given mitzvot, to further the cause of the people's spiritual and material perfection.

The Sages examined two aspects when creating a new law:

* Current religious and physical needs;
* Maintaining cultural and spiritual ties to the people's sublime heritage.

It is not sufficient to consider only current benefits. If the people becomes estranged from its spiritual foundation, it has become a different nation. Its unity and continuity are no longer assured.

Regarding the examination of current and future needs, the Torah writes, "Do not stray". This verse refers to the high court, which passes legislation and decrees relevant to the present situation.

Regarding the need for rabbinical decrees to maintain ties with the spiritual past, the Torah says, "Ask your father ... question your elders". For your past was elevated and divine, and is the source of your success. "For His people is God's portion; Jacob is God's inheritance."

(adapted from Ein Eyah vol. III, p. 73)
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Sephirath

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2012, 12:21:29 AM »
You put man's word over G-d's!


"You shall not add to the law which I command you, not shall you diminish from it" (Davarim - 4:2).
"All that I command you, you shall diligently do; you shall not add to it nor diminish from it" (Davarim - 13:1)
"Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and you be found a liar". (Mishlei - 30:6)

Offline muman613

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2012, 12:24:12 AM »
You put mans word over G-d's!


"You shall not add to the law which I command you, not shall you diminish from it" (Davarim - 4:2).
"All that I command you, you shall diligently do; you shall not add to it nor diminish from it" (Davarim - 13:1)
"Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and you be found a liar". (Mishlei - 30:6)


You must be a Karaite for you do not understand that the Oral law was given alongside the Written law...

There are many things you cannot explain without the Oral law. Are you prepared to answer these questions, obvious commandments from the Torah for which the Torah (written) does not explain? Are you on the level of the Sages and the Rabbis who received the Mesorah which reaches back to Sinai?

I dont think so...

So if you want to talk about who has the ultimate decision of Halacha, whether it is G-d or Man... Hashem has handed the decision of Halacha over to man.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2012, 12:25:49 AM »
Here is a simple question for one who doesn't believe in the Oral law...


How come the Torah says clearly not to make graven images, and yet the Holy of Holies itself contains gold images of the Churibim?

Is this a violation of the Torah, a mistake, or what?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2012, 12:26:59 AM »
Another good question for those who do not believe Oral Law...


What does the command 'Observe the Sabbath' really mean? What constitutes 'work'/melacha?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2012, 12:27:52 AM »
There is also no command to observe Purim and yet we read Megillah Ester every year during this time... Is this too an addition to the Torah?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Sephirath

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2012, 12:44:09 AM »
Hashem has handed the decision of Halacha over to man.

G-d does not leave the matters of morality in the hands of man. You say “Are you greater than our Rabbis?”

The question is “Are your Rabbis greater than Hashem?” If not, why contradict him!?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 12:54:42 AM by Sephirath Ben Baruch »

Offline muman613

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2012, 12:54:38 AM »
G-d does not leave the matters of morality in the hands of man. You say “Are you greater than our Rabbis?”

The question is “Are your Rabbis greater than Hashem?” If not, why contradict him?


I will continue this discussion tomorrow...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2012, 03:28:24 AM »
The rabbis of the Talmud held that the sources quoted by Sephirath ben Baruch are unreliable and according to the simple understanding of their words even held that it was forbidden to study them.
I heard a lenient view, but I can not recall in whose name it was said, that if it is learned as a flawed historical source and not as a biblical book, it is not outright forbidden.
Just as today, besides legitimate Judaism, you have new sects that distort it, such as, reform, conservative and reconstructionist, so too during second temple times you had heretical sects, such as the Sadducees, as well as a few more, which I will not mention here. Who knows what was the religious affiliation and/or bias of the book of Maccabees.
point 2, the menora of the Torah had seven branches not six. Six outer branches together with one central branch
point 3, there is actually a prohibition to make a seven branch menora for non-temple purposes (see for example, Talmud tractate Rosh Hashana page 24)
point 4, The book of Esther which is part of the Tanakh/Bible does call for the addition of the celebration of a holiday that is not mentioned in the Torah. For whatever, reason you wish to give, why that holiday with all its activities is permitted, so too this applies for lighting Hanuka candles (or wicks in oil).
point 5, According to Rashi the prohibition of adding to the Torah is not to add extra details to a mitzva written in the Torah. For example, not to add words to the bircat cohanim {priestly blessing} mentioned in Bamidbar/Numbers 6 verses 24 to 26. According to Rambam, the prohibition of adding to the Torah is that one is not allowed to identify a rabbinic commandment as if it a Torah commandment. But if you clearly identify that the source of a practice is rabbinic it is not a violation.

Offline edu

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2012, 03:57:59 AM »
Another false point of Sephirath Ben Baruch that I have not previously addressed is his connection of Chanuka with the pagan Solstice ceremony
He is ignorant of the fact that the Jewish calendar is not solar. It is lunar based. Therefore Chanuka will not always fall on the days of the Soltice ceremony. Especially since during the 2nd Temple, the calendar was not fixed as it is today. Every year, it was up to the Sanhedrin to decide, if the year would contain 12 lunar months or 13 lunar months. Also the start of each month was determined by the Sanhedrin.
Furthermore, Sephirath Ben Baruch contradicts himself. He starts off clearly acknowledging that there was some celebration on the 25th of Kislev concerning the rededication of the Temple, a point clearly acknowledged by Orthodox Judaism and then he changes his mind and claims Chanuka is a Solstice ceremony, which is an outright lie and slander.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2012, 10:11:25 PM »

To commemorating the mystical oil, the Rabbis decreed a blessing while lighting the candles, "Blessed art thou Lord, King of the universe, who has sanctified us with his commandments and commanded us to light Channukah candles". This addition to the mitzvah's is in direct violation of the Torah which demands of us, "You shall not add to the law which I command you, not shall you diminish from it" (Davarim - 4:2).  

LOL, no it isn't.  And neither is the blessing over the reciting of the Megillah.  


You are spouting pure ignorance here.    The "miracle of the oil" is certainly more stressed by the Talmud Bavli because of the danger of celebrating a revolution against the gentiles while living as subjects in galut to a gentile rulership, and also because Bavli Jews had no connection or awareness of military affairs or endeavors like those undertaken by the maccabees.   And certainly this miracle may have evolved over time (was the miracle that the leftover oil was pure with the kohen gadol's seal?  Was the miracle that the oil lasted longer than expected?   But oil lasting longer than expected was a miracle that happened every day in the bet hamikdash).   The true miracle was the guerilla victory over the illustrious and superior-trained, superior-armed seluecid greek army, by a bunch of peasants with faith in G-d and strict devotion to the guerilla warfare principles of their military commanders the Hashmonaim.   But nonetheless, what you put here is mostly nonsense and weird speculation.

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2012, 10:13:49 PM »
You put man's word over G-d's!


"You shall not add to the law which I command you, not shall you diminish from it" (Davarim - 4:2).
"All that I command you, you shall diligently do; you shall not add to it nor diminish from it" (Davarim - 13:1)
"Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and you be found a liar". (Mishlei - 30:6)


So you're going to stop celebrating Purim then?   

Do you also not say Hallel?   Afterall, where does the Torah specifically say do x y z.   etc.   You will have to throw out the entire religion if you think the scholars of Judaism (the prophets and then the chachamim who were their students and followers) have no say in anything we do.

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2012, 10:15:02 PM »
G-d does not leave the matters of morality in the hands of man. You say “Are you greater than our Rabbis?”

The question is “Are your Rabbis greater than Hashem?” If not, why contradict him!?


I don't see that muman contradicted God anywhere here.    The rabbis were given power and authority by God's Torah to adjudicate on matters of Jewish law.     Read Devarim.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2012, 10:27:12 PM »
The rabbis of the Talmud held that the sources quoted by Sephirath ben Baruch are unreliable and according to the simple understanding of their words even held that it was forbidden to study them.
I heard a lenient view, but I can not recall in whose name it was said, that if it is learned as a flawed historical source and not as a biblical book, it is not outright forbidden.
Just as today, besides legitimate Judaism, you have new sects that distort it, such as, reform, conservative and reconstructionist, so too during second temple times you had heretical sects, such as the Sadducees, as well as a few more, which I will not mention here. Who knows what was the religious affiliation and/or bias of the book of Maccabees.
point 2, the menora of the Torah had seven branches not six. Six outer branches together with one central branch
point 3, there is actually a prohibition to make a seven branch menora for non-temple purposes (see for example, Talmud tractate Rosh Hashana page 24)
point 4, The book of Esther which is part of the Tanakh/Bible does call for the addition of the celebration of a holiday that is not mentioned in the Torah. For whatever, reason you wish to give, why that holiday with all its activities is permitted, so too this applies for lighting Hanuka candles (or wicks in oil).
point 5, According to Rashi the prohibition of adding to the Torah is not to add extra details to a mitzva written in the Torah. For example, not to add words to the bircat cohanim {priestly blessing} mentioned in Bamidbar/Numbers 6 verses 24 to 26. According to Rambam, the prohibition of adding to the Torah is that one is not allowed to identify a rabbinic commandment as if it a Torah commandment. But if you clearly identify that the source of a practice is rabbinic it is not a violation.

The first book of Maccabees is likely reliable historically.  It is a first hand account written only a short period after the events.  It seems the author is a partisan of the Hashmonaim and could even have been a soldier in the army himself when those wars were fought, telling his own story there, or the story of the maccabean fighers (from their perspective).   Book of Maccabbees 2 is more of a secondary source, written later and written in the galuth, but it is also pretty reliable and gives some interesting details.    Scholars suggest that Macc. 1 may have been written by a sadducee, and macc 2 written by a Pharisee, but in my humble opinion, this is largely baseless speculation because neither work is a polemic in any sense.   And the scholars only say this because the first book glosses over all the controversy surrounding the high priest and the corrupt kohanim (usually the saducees were the ones in control of the temple service and were the corrupt ones getting positions through bribery, etc and sometimes not even real kohens), while Maccabees 2 details some of those events within the kahuna which led up to the revolt.   IMO neither of that  proves the allegiance of the author and in both cases, no real position is taken aside from reporting on facts deemed relevant by the author.   So the scholars say the author of book one has "something to hide" but IMO he is simply giving the military and cultural/religious history and doesn't much care about the temple service controversies.

Books 3 and 4 written much later and are barely even worthy of a mention.   Probably not even worth reading because almost completely unreliable historically except for whatever they happen to repeat from the other 2 texts..

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2012, 10:29:52 PM »
Another false point of Sephirath Ben Baruch that I have not previously addressed is his connection of Chanuka with the pagan Solstice ceremony
He is ignorant of the fact that the Jewish calendar is not solar. It is lunar based. Therefore Chanuka will not always fall on the days of the Soltice ceremony. Especially since during the 2nd Temple, the calendar was not fixed as it is today. Every year, it was up to the Sanhedrin to decide, if the year would contain 12 lunar months or 13 lunar months. Also the start of each month was determined by the Sanhedrin.
Furthermore, Sephirath Ben Baruch contradicts himself. He starts off clearly acknowledging that there was some celebration on the 25th of Kislev concerning the rededication of the Temple, a point clearly acknowledged by Orthodox Judaism and then he changes his mind and claims Chanuka is a Solstice ceremony, which is an outright lie and slander.

True.

Offline muman613

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2012, 01:03:36 AM »
True.

Yes the obvious failure to mention that Chanukah is based on the Hebrew calender, which is a lunar cycle, doesn't always fall out on the Winter Solstice... Must not have been written by a scholar...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2012, 03:28:31 AM »
quote by Kahane-Was-Right BT
Quote
The first book of Maccabees is likely reliable historically.  It is a first hand account written only a short period after the events.  It seems the author is a partisan of the Hashmonaim and could even have been a soldier in the army himself when those wars were fought, telling his own story there, or the story of the maccabean fighers (from their perspective).   Book of Maccabbees 2 is more of a secondary source, written later and written in the galuth, but it is also pretty reliable and gives some interesting details.    Scholars suggest that Macc. 1 may have been written by a sadducee, and macc 2 written by a Pharisee, but in my humble opinion, this is largely baseless speculation because neither work is a polemic in any sense.
If Maccabees 1 for example, was written by a Sadducee and I have no idea (having not even read the book, being somewhat afraid of the stringent  view that there is a Talmudic prohibition to learn the book, although I have not thrown it out of my house when I was sent a free copy) then it is obvious he would want to keep silent about oil miracles, because the Sadduccees were against Rabbinic commandments and interpretations.
Today, for example, the leftists media doesn't always have to lie. Usually, their main weapon is to ignore facts they don't like and magnify facts that fit in with their agenda. The same could theoretically be said for a Sadduccee author, talking about Chanuka.
Furthermore, the Jewish legal system always relies on 2 or more valid witnesses, to establish facts, even for the sake of giving the death penalty or determining marital status. If the Sages tell us there was an oil miracle and instituted a ceremony to recall the oil miracle, this at the very least has the strength of two witnesses.

Offline edu

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2012, 04:32:01 AM »
I will give you a modern example, where bias of the author determines which facts are reported, including miracle stories.
 
Tamar Yonah provides a list of modern war miracles that took place for Israeli soldiers in our time.
The Leftist media wishing to promote their leftists traitors, such as, Yitzchak Rabin and their secular agenda, will try as much as they can to avoid these types of stories, because they "help" the religious.
Quote describing, the youtube interview:
Quote
G-d really loves His children, Israel. He shows it with the abundant miracles He has performed throughout the ages for His people. In this re-broadcast from 2006, Tamar interviews Commander (and Rabbi) Meir Hakak HaLevy as he shares true stories of miracles that took place on the battlefields where Israel has fought. Hear amazing stories of 'divine intervention' and spiritual experiences including angels appearing on the battlefield shielding our soldiers. This show is sure to send tingles down your spine!

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2012, 12:08:48 AM »
quote by Kahane-Was-Right BTIf Maccabees 1 for example, was written by a Sadducee and I have no idea (having not even read the book, being somewhat afraid of the stringent  view that there is a Talmudic prohibition to learn the book, although I have not thrown it out of my house when I was sent a free copy)

Talmudic prohibition to read maccabees I ?  What?
I never heard of this being included in any kind of prohibition.  What are you talking about?

Quote
then it is obvious he would want to keep silent about oil miracles, because the Sadduccees were against Rabbinic commandments and interpretations.  

But, if I'm not mistaken, the Talmud Yerushalmi is silent about oil miracles, and I know megillath taanith did not mention an oil miracle.  Only in the scholia it is mentioned (written much later, added in Hebrew - megillath taanith itself was written in aramaic), and scholars actually are in debate over whether the original scholia added in actually contained mention of the oil or whether that was added in even later than the rest of the scholia.   So this is not just a saduccee thing to be silent about an oil miracle.

It is specifically the Talmud Bavli which focuses intently on the oil miracle and it does so for rational and good reasons.   But I also understand why this was not focused on or not even mentioned in other sources.

Also take a look at Pesiqta Rabbathi  (9th century work)- It not only does not mention the miracle, it gives a different reason altogether for why we light the hanuka lights - It says because the Hashmonaim defeated the Greeks (then quotes a verse from Zacharia), then they entered the Bet Hamikdash and found 8 poles of iron, so they put them together (into a makeshift menorah) and lit candles on them.   Guess where we also find this account of what they did when they entered the Bet Hamikdash for the first time since conquering it from the greeks - The book of the maccabees, supposedly written by a "saducee?"  Again, I see no polemic in the work, and his account of the events is not disputed by our rabbis anywhere.  And he too writes of a makeshift menorah put together out of scrap metal as the first ceremonial act upon re-entry to the Bet Hamikdash.

Quote
Today, for example, the leftists media doesn't always have to lie. Usually, their main weapon is to ignore facts they don't like and magnify facts that fit in with their agenda. The same could theoretically be said for a Sadduccee author, talking about Chanuka.
Furthermore, the Jewish legal system always relies on 2 or more valid witnesses, to establish facts, even for the sake of giving the death penalty or determining marital status. If the Sages tell us there was an oil miracle and instituted a ceremony to recall the oil miracle, this at the very least has the strength of two witnesses.

Theoretically anyone could claim anything, but in my humble opinion, the scholars attributing book 1 to a sadducee and book 2 to a pharisee is guesswork based on speculation and has no bearing on the content of these works.  It's very circumstantial evidence from what is inside them, but not from any actual bias demonstrated in the works.   Therefore I find the point an irrelevant one since both books seem to be historically reliable for the most part and are not polemic in nature.  And about witnesses, that seems to have nothing to do with this.  When a chacham writes a halachic work, we don't require two witnesses to certify it's kosher.   If it's written, and it's preserved, then we have it, and we can read the words.  If not, then we can't.    Similarly, lehavdil, for a historical work.  Either it survives or it doesn't.  You can consider the source, but there is no stamp or seal of approval placed on texts.

As to your claim that it is forbidden to read them, I can't understand how that could be possible.  From what I understand, the Aruch Hashulchan uses an explanation right out of book 2 for why there are 8 days in the festival and how it is based on the holiday of Sukkot.  (This is straight out of Maccabees II).   And doesn't the Rambam in his description of hanuka in Mishne Torah utililze some material from Maccabees I as well?   I forget now exactly how he describes it and would have to look it up again to confirm this.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 12:19:45 AM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline muman613

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2012, 12:15:35 AM »
KWRBT,

The term 'prohibition' is a bit strong but the sages recommend that we not read these Apocryphal books...


See:



http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/543,533/What-is-the-Jewish-view-on-the-Apocrypha.html

What is the Jewish view on the Apocrypha?
by Rabbi Yossi Marcus


The Apocrypha refers to books that remained outside the biblical canon, such as the Book of Maccabees, which deals with the story of Chanukah, and The Book of Ben Sira, which is a collection of Proverbs.

These books were not written with Divine inspiration and according to some contain ideas that are antithetical to true Judaism. Judaism therefore does not encourage one to read them. However, they do contain valuable info and wisdom and according to some opinions may be consulted appropriately.

See Talmud Sanhedrin 100b regarding the “external books.”

(Obviously the Christian Apocrypha is treated like all other books of Chrisitanity.)

See : http://halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_100.html#PARTb
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 12:21:04 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2012, 12:22:33 AM »
KWRBT,

The term 'prohibition' is a bit strong but the sages recommend that we not read these Apocryphal books...


See:



http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/543,533/What-is-the-Jewish-view-on-the-Apocrypha.html

What is the Jewish view on the Apocrypha?
by Rabbi Yossi Marcus


The Apocrypha refers to books that remained outside the biblical canon, such as the Book of Maccabees, which deals with the story of Chanukah, and The Book of Ben Sira, which is a collection of Proverbs.

These books were not written with Divine inspiration and according to some contain ideas that are antithetical to true Judaism. Judaism therefore does not encourage one to read them. However, they do contain valuable info and wisdom and according to some opinions may be consulted appropriately.

See Talmud Sanhedrin 100b regarding the “external books.”

(Obviously the Christian Apocrypha is treated like all other books of Chrisitanity.)

See : http://halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_100.html#PARTb

Really, so any book that is outside the Biblical canon is forbidden?   Do you honestly believe that?

And can Rabbi Yossie Marcus explain to me how he included the book of the maccabees in this prohibition?

Offline muman613

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Re: The Truth of Channukah
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2012, 12:32:31 AM »
Really, so any book that is outside the Biblical canon is forbidden?   Do you honestly believe that?

And can Rabbi Yossie Marcus explain to me how he included the book of the maccabees in this prohibition?

Book of Maccabees is an Apocryphal book, do you agree? It has been decided that it is not a part of the Jewish scriptures. This is not debatable. There was a decision made by the sages to exclude it.

Are you aware the Book of Maccabees is in the Christian bible?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14