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Offline Chai

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Who is with me on this
« on: January 06, 2012, 04:08:22 AM »
http://thinkingtorah.blogspot.com/2012/01/modesty-and-women-problem.html



Wednesday, January 04, 2012
Modesty and the "Women Problem"

The news has been filled with stories about the status of women in Israeli society:
Women relegated to the back of the bus, women eliminated from public street posters, 8 year-old girls attacked due to their "lack of modesty." We are witnessing a growing situation in which religious groups have succeeded in marginalizing women within the public space or excluding them from it, as women are viewed as a temptation, a sexual distraction.

I am a religiously observant person, a Rabbi, and yet I deem this interpretation as a distortion and falsification of Judaism's idea of modesty. I have spent some time recently trying to articulate where the problem lies; after all, I too subscribe to values of modesty. Let me attempt to explain it as I see it.

Some years ago, a Rabbi friend told me the following story. A congregant had approached him and asked to speak to him about a situation that was on his mind. The Rabbi asked him what the problem was:

"Well Rabbi," He said, "Yesterday, I attended Sheva Berachot."

"Mazal Tov!" responded the Rabbi. "What is the problem?"

"Well, the kalla got up to give a Devar Torah" the congregant said uneasily.

""Wonderful!" responded the Rabbi.

"Well," said the man, "She was very attractive and it was inappropriate."

The Rabbi engaged him in discussion on the topic, with the congregant frustrated by his inability to express what he found as the point of his discomfort.  At a certain point, he blurted out: "A women is just, quite simply, an object of immodesty!"

When men perceive women as a sexual object, I believe that however much they hide women away, they will still be aroused by something that reminds them of the sexual. And because these men are fighting to repress their sexual urges and to somehow eliminate them, they see women everywhere, they identify sexual stimulation in the slightest reminder of a woman. They push women further and further into the background to be continually frustrated that they feel continued sexual attraction. I recall reading a book in which an Islamic woman who wears a Burka, remarked that the men could identify which women had an attractive figure and would make sexual comments to women, even as they were covered from head to toe!

So here is the point. The Haredi community is terrified that sexuality will lead its men to sin. It responds by subjecting its women to increasingly stringent standards of dress, and removing them from the public space. But despite the fact that they require women to recede, the problem endures.

Now – this entire perspective is highly un-Jewish. How so?

First, modesty in the public arena is not to achieved by suppressing women; it is not women who are to pay the price. In most places that the Shulkhan Arukh addresses modesty, the man is instructed to restrict his gaze and not to look at a woman in an inappropriately sexual manner. But it doesn't say that a woman is required to button up in order to prevent or "protect" the man. Men are expected to take care of their sexual drives and to control their eyes and minds.

I think that something else should be said about the Jewish sexual ethic. Judaism has a host of laws regarding social interaction between the sexes. A man and a woman (who are unmarried) are not to be in a closed room alone (Yichud). They are not supposed to flirt or engage in affectionate physical contact (negia). A man should not look at women to gain some erotic pleasure (Histaklut assura and hirhur). Now, these laws are there precisely because men and women interact in the public arena, and because sexual attraction does exist between men and women. Hence, in order to facilitate a non-sexualized public space, these are regulations that seek to eliminate sexual opportunity and a sexually provocative environment. But this is precisely the point: These laws allow the genders to interact. They do not restrict the mixing of the genders!

It is certainly true that contemporary Western society has created a highly sexualized, provocative, flirtatious and even promiscuous public environment. Jewish tradition should have strong critique of modern society in this regard, and any Halakhically sensitive Jew would do well to guide his life, family and home, in an alternative direction. Possibly this overt sexualization is what sends our Orthodox world into retreat. After all, when the wider society is so audacious, traditional Judaism with its emphasis upon modesty, fidelity and marriage may justifiably attempt to protect itself. And yet, the overemphasis upon laws of modesty and gender separation become absurd.  In an almost absurd and perverse reversal, it thrusts sexual attraction into the centre stage; so much so that it appears at times as if these God fearing people have sex on their mind every second of the day, as if they may succumb to illicit desire at any given moment!

Judaism is fully aware of the wild nature of sexual attraction. And yet Jewish Law has created a mechanism to keep the public space sexually neutral. If people are dressed modestly, if they don't engage in physical contact or allow themselves to be alone in private, then Halakha says that this is the standard that will ensure a holy public space.

After that, any man who has a problem must take care of his problem on his own.

Rabbi Moses Feinstein- the great American posek of the 20th Century – ruled that a Jew may travel the subway at rush hour even if he or she is pressed against the opposite sex. His assumption was that people who were crushed together in the train, would have preferred a more spacious environment, and hence there was no intent to engage in physical contact; the entire situation being against their personal desire and that a normal person would not be subject to sexual arousal. He did warn that if a particular individual was sexually aroused by the situation, they should take care of their "problem" by travelling at non-crowded times.

Similarly here. Women can be on street posters, the buses should be mixed. At the same time, I certainly would like to see people dressing in non-provocative clothing. But even with the street as it is, the street or bus cannot be worse than a crowded subway carriage. A normal person can control their eyes and minds. Women should not pay the price here.

This can be done. Let us hope that we can build God-fearing communities, that are respectful to all genders, that exclude no group or individual, that are seen as exemplars of kindness and respect, that engage with society and sanctify God's name.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Who is with me on this
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2012, 07:22:12 AM »
Quote
. I recall reading a book in which an Islamic woman who wears a Burka, remarked that the men could identify which women had an attractive figure and would make sexual comments to women, even as they were covered from head to toe!

That I believe was a true account. It begs the question of what Islamic men find attractive though. Is it those women who more closely resemble camels?

Offline Lisa

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Re: Who is with me on this
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2012, 09:36:18 AM »
Great article Chai.  I agree with the author. 

One difference between Judaism and Islam is that Jewish men are expected to control their sexual urges. 

Offline heyuguys

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Re: Who is with me on this
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2012, 12:00:08 PM »
Great article Chai.  I agree with the author.  

One difference between Judaism and Islam is that Jewish men are expected to control their sexual urges.  

yah the onus should be on the man to control their sexual urges. the muslims claim the women need to be in tents because it makes the men act in bad ways to see their bodies, but everyone knows its just an excuse to control and brutalise the women.

Offline Lisa

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Re: Who is with me on this
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2012, 12:28:08 PM »
Notice how the most backwards societies are those where there are almost no limits on male sexual behavior?  Muslim countries are the best example.  Rather than men being responsible for their behavior, they make their women cover up completely.  In fact some mullahs have argued that an uncovered woman is like a piece of meat with flies swarming on it.  In other words an uncovered "immodestly dressed" woman is fair game for men, whenever, or wherever the urge takes them. 

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Who is with me on this
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2012, 03:34:14 PM »
Bottom line we have to share this world with many people who disagree with us. I know that this isn't completely a JTF point of view however I will only speak about Jews in Israel...

Because not all of our ideals are alike, religious or secular, but we share the same territory, that doesn't give the right of one side to impose on the other.  If we are sharing space, we have to learn to get along.  First off, no matter which type of nut your are, you have to expect not everyone will agree with your way of life. Secondly, if you are the nut on the other side of the spectrum, if you are to get along with your neighbor, even if you disagree, you have to show respect.  This means that the secular nut doesn't walk around in a religious community flaunting skin; and this means a religious nut doesn't go forcing his views on an innocent unknowing secular person.  On the other hand, a secular person who realizes which territory she is going in should show respect and cover up out of respect...and that religious person should show more kindness if he wants to rebuke the lack of modesty of the other person..

It's common sense if you ask me..but then again, extremists don't have any common sense.
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Offline muman613

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Re: Who is with me on this
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2012, 03:59:20 PM »
I don't agree completely with what this Rabbi is saying though I understand what he is saying.

I completely respect women as a part of the human race. We are both two parts of a whole for without women nobody here would be alive. Women and Men are both essential for the continuity of the human race despite all the efforts to eliminate this fact of life.

I am not one who believes in equality of all humanity. On one level we all are G-ds creation, we are all holy in our own ways, and we are all special. But our specialty is not the same between all people. All one needs to do is look at the world and we see the fact that some are rich, some are poor, some are happy, some are sad, and some don't care.

If we all were equal we would all be the same. I believe that Hashem has created an incomplete world where no one soul is complete without another. We NEED each other in order to live. Hashem wants us to realize that we all have potential and to help everyone utilize his/her potential for the best.

The Torah is clear, in my humble opinion, that we are not all equal. No man who was not born from a father who was a Kohein can ever be a Kohein. Nobody can study to become a Levi. Our family is not our choice, it is given to us, as life is given to us. Hashem gives us our personality traits and our DNA which dictates our physical traits. It is our free will which molds what we were given into who we are and who we will become.

Regarding women it is important to remember this dynamic, that women need men as much as men need women. We are not the same because a man does not want a woman who is the same as he is, he should want a woman who will improve who he will be. And the woman should want a man who will improve who she is and who she will be.

So women should want to dress modestly not because it is shameful to show yourself, not because you can't be proud of how you look... Women should want to dress modestly to allow the men to be able to concentrate more on their Torah study, and more on their business dealings. And it has been found that men often are more attracted to a women who is modest than one who is immodest.

All I ask is for women who are trying to understand this issue in Judaism is to remember that we are really all working to make this world a better place. It is not because we believe women to be inferior or something to be ashamed of.

I do think the constant comparing the custom of gender separation to Islam is counterproductive. Obviously Judaism doesn't put the sin on the woman, it puts the sin on the man for having these impure thoughts. But sometimes the woman could be more considerate by understanding why some Jewish men act this way.

See Gil Ronens opinion : http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/11071
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 04:18:15 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Confederate Kahanist

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Re: Who is with me on this
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2012, 12:58:09 PM »
Notice how the most backwards societies are those where there are almost no limits on male sexual behavior?  Muslim countries are the best example.  Rather than men being responsible for their behavior, they make their women cover up completely.  In fact some mullahs have argued that an uncovered woman is like a piece of meat with flies swarming on it.  In other words an uncovered "immodestly dressed" woman is fair game for men, whenever, or wherever the urge takes them. 

What's funny is that liberals and feminists tend to support this behavior in the muzzie world.
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Offline Debbie Shafer

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Re: Who is with me on this
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2012, 03:59:22 PM »
Yes, We should be able to control our emotions and urges....after all we are thinkers who should be able to control our base passions, and implement Godly principles, Mind over Matter!   What an excuse to blame it on the beauty and the Curves of Women!

Offline Chai

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Re: Who is with me on this
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2012, 08:01:03 PM »

http://www.divineinformation.com/videos-english/the-path-of-the-just-series-4-2/

Not sure what you dont agree with but this is what rabbi mizrachi says he not only agrees but goes even further start at 1:04 till the end.


I don't agree completely with what this Rabbi is saying though I understand what he is saying.

I completely respect women as a part of the human race. We are both two parts of a whole for without women nobody here would be alive. Women and Men are both essential for the continuity of the human race despite all the efforts to eliminate this fact of life.

I am not one who believes in equality of all humanity. On one level we all are G-ds creation, we are all holy in our own ways, and we are all special. But our specialty is not the same between all people. All one needs to do is look at the world and we see the fact that some are rich, some are poor, some are happy, some are sad, and some don't care.

If we all were equal we would all be the same. I believe that Hashem has created an incomplete world where no one soul is complete without another. We NEED each other in order to live. Hashem wants us to realize that we all have potential and to help everyone utilize his/her potential for the best.

The Torah is clear, in my humble opinion, that we are not all equal. No man who was not born from a father who was a Kohein can ever be a Kohein. Nobody can study to become a Levi. Our family is not our choice, it is given to us, as life is given to us. Hashem gives us our personality traits and our DNA which dictates our physical traits. It is our free will which molds what we were given into who we are and who we will become.

Regarding women it is important to remember this dynamic, that women need men as much as men need women. We are not the same because a man does not want a woman who is the same as he is, he should want a woman who will improve who he will be. And the woman should want a man who will improve who she is and who she will be.

So women should want to dress modestly not because it is shameful to show yourself, not because you can't be proud of how you look... Women should want to dress modestly to allow the men to be able to concentrate more on their Torah study, and more on their business dealings. And it has been found that men often are more attracted to a women who is modest than one who is immodest.

All I ask is for women who are trying to understand this issue in Judaism is to remember that we are really all working to make this world a better place. It is not because we believe women to be inferior or something to be ashamed of.

I do think the constant comparing the custom of gender separation to Islam is counterproductive. Obviously Judaism doesn't put the sin on the woman, it puts the sin on the man for having these impure thoughts. But sometimes the woman could be more considerate by understanding why some Jewish men act this way.

See Gil Ronens opinion : http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/11071