Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Shalom
Dan Ben Noah:
Shalom
muman613:
If one accepts the Talmud as the Oral law there are plenty of examples of mysticism in the Torah.
Mysticism does not deny that Hashem is the ONE GOD because all power is derived by him. I don't quite understand how there is a contradiction.
muman613:
The Torah certainly refers to Hashem by multiple names. To deny this indicates that one has never read the Torah.
How about :
Elokim:
Yud-Kay-Vav-Kay
Hashem (Master)
Shadai (Who said stop)
Rachaman (Mercy)
Chesed (Kindness)
Arech-Apayim (Long Suffering)
Emet (Truth)
I mentioned some of the 13 attributes of Hashem. We consider all of Hashems names to be just the aspect of Hashem which we interact with.
Obviously nobody prays to a name of Hashem... I know that people have always had a problem understanding how names are used by man..
http://www.vbm-torah.org/roshandyk/13-eb.htm
Belief in the Sod (the hidden meaning) does not negate the Pshat.
edu:
Dan Ben Noah quoted Rabbi Moshe Ben Chaim:
--- Quote ---These notions contain two grave errors: 1) equating G-d with creation; 2) assuming knowledge about G-d. Two Torah verses teach otherwise: “Man cannot know Me while alive (Exod. 33:20)” told to Moses. G-d also told Isaiah, “To what can you equate Me, and I will be similar? (Isaiah 40:25).”
--- End quote ---
I agree with point 1. Some high profile interpretations of the Kabbala (but not all) incorrectly go against classic Jewisht thought and equate G-d with creation.
Point #2 that you raised needs some further refining.
The literal translation of Exodus 33:20 is: And he said you will not be able to see my face for a man shall not see me and live. Your understanding of the verse is certainly a reasonable one, but I am not sure it is the only one.
Perhaps an alternate source that there is a limitation of how much we can fully understand G-d is in Yishayahu/Isaiah 55 verses 8 and 9. And also the last few chapters of the book of Iyov/Job seem to echo this theme.
But at the same time in Yirmiyahu/Jeremiah 9:23 the verse indicates there is a certain level of Knowledge about G-d that a person can indeed obtain.
As far as certain Kabbalistic ideas that you quoted Dan, although they definitely can be abused and interpeted in a way that is contrary to Judaism, however, there is a Torah mitzva to judge, the righteous for the benefit of the doubt and the ideas you quoted are interpreted by some followers of Kabbala as symbols for vaious Jewish ideals and not in a literal sense.
And there is a precedent for this in the Tanach itself, where the Tanach for example, talks about
the "eyes of G-d" to portray a symbolic idea, even though in truth G-d does not have a body.
muman613:
My point is that the article is discussing 'mysticism' and not what is called Kabbalah. What exactly is mysticism? It means to me that there exist things in the world which we cannot perceive, the spiritual world, which exists apart from the physical one. The Torah contains many, many hints of the spiritual world.
The Torah expressly discusses Angels such as during the very creation when Hashem says "Shall We Create Man?" and the sages say that Hashem is addressing his Elokim, his angels which according to Midrash argued whether man should be created. This is not Kabbalah, this is simple Midrash and these stories are brought by the Sages in the Talmud. We have the stories of Abraham being visited by angels and the assorted midrashim which explain that the angels, who ordinarily do no eat, pretended to eat in order to allow Abraham to serve them their tongue sandwiches {which he slaughtered three cows for three tonguess}. If this is not mysticism what is?
Many of our Giant Patriarchs had experiences with Angels as in the case of Jacob who dreamed of the Angels going up and coming down the ladder, and later his encounter with the Angel of Essau with whom he wrestled. The sages are clear that this was a heavenly angel who actually had to leave in the morning to sing praises to Hashem.
The Torah, the Talmud, and the Prophets all hint at Moshiach but the Chumash never explicitly talk about Moshiach. Yet it is fundamental belief of Judaism that Hashem will send a redeemer of the Jewish people. This is learned through studying the various interpretations.
Even Rambam considered Resurrection of the Dead to be one of the Thirteen Basic Principles of Judaism even though the Torah nor the Tanach ever explicitly mention this. Is the Resurrection of the Dead mystical or is it something rational?
The system of PaRDeS or Pshat (Simple meaning) Remez (Hints), Drash (Moral/Philosophical), and Sod (Hidden/Secret) is used by all who learn Torah to understand the various messages contained in the Torah.
While I agree that Kabbalah can be misunderstood it is still considered a source for wisdom. I believe Kabbalah can help cement concepts in our brains once we have learned the Chumash, Tanakh, and Talmud.
See also:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/558595/jewish/Who-was-Gd-addressing-when-saying-Let-US-create-man.htm
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/41/Q1/
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=164:what-is-the-meaning-of-G-d-said-qlet-us-make-man-in-our-image-&catid=49:trinity&Itemid=501
http://torah.org/learning/perceptions/5768/netzavim.html
--- Quote ---These are, of course, the four levels of Torah referred to as “Pardes,” a word which means “orchard,” but which also stands for the four levels of Torah learning: Pshat, Remez, Drush, and Sod, literally: Simple, Hint, Exegesis, and Secret, or Mikrah, Mishnah, Talmud, and Kabbalah.
There are four levels [of Torah understanding] and the pneumonic is Pardes: Pshat, Remez, Drush, and Sod. A person needs to toil in all of them to the extent that he can, and seek out a teacher to teach them to him. If a person lacks one of these four levels relative to what he could have achieved then he will have to reincarnate. (Sha’ar HaGilgulim, Ch. 11)
They are the four levels on which a single Torah concept can be understood, and as one probes from level to level, he also moves from a lower level of consciousness to a higher one:
The rabbis taught: Four entered Pardes: Ben Azzai, Ben Zoma, Acher, and Rebi Akiva. Rebi Akiva told them, “When you arrive at the Stones of Pure Marble, don’t say, ‘Water, water,’ because it says, ‘He who speaks falsehood will not be established before My eyes’ (Tehillim 101:7).” Ben Azzai gazed at the Divine Presence and died, and with respect to him it says, “Difficult in the eyes of G-d is the death of His pious ones” (Tehillim 116:15). Ben Zoma gazed and went mad — to him the following verse may be applied: “Have you found honey? Eat as much as is sufficient for you, so that you do not consume too much and have to vomit” (Mishlei 25:16). Acher “cut off his plantings” (i.e., he became a heretic). Rebi Akiva entered in peace and departed in peace. (Chagigah 14b)
--- End quote ---
See also:
http://rabbibuchwald.njop.org/2006/10/16/bereishith-5767-2006/
--- Quote ---While invoking the various interpretations of “Pardes” addresses many of the major textual issues, we are still left with another unresolved question. If the sun and moon were not created until the fourth day, how could the Torah state in Genesis 1:3: “Va’yomer Eh’lo’him, ye’hee ohr v’ye’hee ohr,” And G-d said, let there be light, and there was light. What light was this, surely not the sunlight with which we are familiar? Here the rabbis invoke the element of “sohd“–mysticism, suggesting that the light that was created on the first day of creation was a “spiritual” light rather than a “physical” light, and that on the first day of creation the world was flooded with spiritual light. This spiritual light was taken away when the human being sinned and defied G-d in the Garden of Eden. Hidden away in the World to Come for safekeeping, it remains there until the end of days when the human souls will once again bask in this spiritual light.
--- End quote ---
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