Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
"Are We In Galuth?-The Approach of HaRav David Bar-Hayim To Geulah"
Tag-MehirTzedek:
--- Quote from: muman613 on February 08, 2012, 08:53:35 PM ---Fine... I am sorry if my tone is defensive..
which says that if the entire Am Yisroel observed two consecutive Shabbats according to Halacha then Moshiach would instantly come...
--- End quote ---
Not exactly. This is from Rav Kahane's book Or Harayon volume 2- (English edition) page 983 (last sentence.)
" ' If Israel kept only two Sabbaths according to their laws [kehilchatan], we would immediately be redeemed.'
In other words, if we fulfill all the laws of the Sabbath, including adding from the non-holy to the holy, corresponding to the Messianic era, then G-D Himself will add from the non-holy and hasten the eternal Sabbath. "
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on February 08, 2012, 07:46:17 PM ---It appears that this rabbi completely misunderstands what Chabad is.... It is not the belief that Moshiach will come in a spaceship or any other meshugah idea. Maybe if he tried to understand the mission of Chabad he would have a better understanding.
I have never heard any Chabad Rabbi refer to Rabbi Schnerson as Moshiach.
--- End quote ---
Then you haven't spoken to many Chabad rabbis.
There are literally thousands of chabadniks and chabad rabbis out there who profess this belief. There are thousands more who believe it but prefer not to admit it publicly for various reasons. (And of course, there are also thousands who are against this, I hope).
The fact that you only have experience in your personal life with a handful of rabbis who do not subscribe to these problematic beliefs does not make all the others no longer exist.
Also I do not know if the author of this article is a rabbi (you referred to him as such). He signed his name as Yair HaKohen, so it may be he is not a rabbi but a student. However, having heard Rabbi Bar Hayim speak about Chabad, both in audio and in print, it does seem this author's statements regarding some chabad people is in line with what Rav Bar Hayim has said about the subject.
--- Quote ---And those who did claim he was are no longer involved in the organization {at least were I live}. To continue to claim that they say this requires one to close ones eyes and mind to the truth.
--- End quote ---
Maybe where you live, they cleaned house, and that is to be commended. But they certainly didn't in many, many places. It is closing one's eyes to the truth if you think your local community is representative of every single chabad in the world.
And if you just want to go by personal experience alone, I knew a Chabad rabbi and when I asked him point blank if the rebbe was moshiach, he wouldn't deny it. He said things like "it doesn't really matter whether he was or not." or "We'll all find out soon enough who is the moshiach" etc. Never would flat out say, "No. He wasn't." There are many within Chabad who are like that rabbi I knew, unfortunately. Of course there are also many like the rabbis you know, who do not believe this stuff. But I wonder, have you asked your rabbi point blank? I think I once requested this from you or brought this point up before to see if he will deny in no uncertain terms that the rebbe was moshiach - specifically because I know there are rabbis out there who will try to get around that question by not answering directly. Will your rabbi say point blank "The rebbe was not moshiach?" - Just wondering.
--- Quote ---I am so tired of this Rabbi speaking Ill of other Jews... Sorry Tag..
--- End quote ---
Why is it speaking ill of other Jews?
This author, Yair Hakohen, brought up an issue in the Jewish world which everyone knows exists (apparently, except for you). He examined the idea of galuth and geulah, the perspectives on these topics in various sectors of the Jewish world, and how certain views of geulah have impacted the development of that issue which is a problem within Chabad, that some are fighting against. You turn around and say, "No, that Issue doesn't even exist, it was rooted out, so therefore you cannot make that point about what is the proper or improper view of geulah and how it impacted problematic beliefs because these beliefs don't even exist anymore and it's slander to bring it up." - How is it slander?
First of all, even if you were correct (which you are not) that Chabad has already rooted out all the messichistim from its midst, then wouldn't his point still be valid in a historical sense about how that corrupted belief developed in the first place before Chabad then supposedly rid themselves of its proponents? Theoretically speaking. The point is still the exact same whether these people only existed in history (which you admit) or if they also still exist now (which you deny but no one else outside of chabad seems to think so).
--- Quote ---PS: There is not a single Jewish organization which encourages Jews to do the Mitzvot more than Chabad. It is sad that people like Rabbi Bar-Hayim considers it his right to malign such a great Jewish organization. I wonder what this rabbi does to even hold a candle to the wonderful mitzvot that Chabad Rabbis have encouraged?
--- End quote ---
For one thing, Rav Bar Hayim didn't write the article, but for another, I don't see how the author "slandered Chabad," nor does anyone else if they bring up problematic beliefs that are obviously rampant in Chabad communities and which everyone already knows about. No one is saying chabad should be shut down. And Rabbi Bar Hayim has made a point to say that he thinks some of the work Chabad has done is wonderful and very important even if he critiques their hashqafa.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
And Muman, once again I think you would benefit greatly from a trip to Israel, where you would find (in addition to the spiritual uplifting experience of traversing the land of our forefathers and all the benefits that come with that), that there are many more chabadniks in Israel who openly profess belief in the rebbe as moshiach (or still alive, or both) than in the United States and other countries. They even have special flags which they proudly display. Those are the facts, as uncomfortable as they may be. It doesn't take away from the good work that Chabad does, or from the Chabad people who don't subscribe to these erroneous and in some cases idolatrous beliefs.
muman613:
Shalom KWRBT,
I never said that there was not a problem with some Chabad Rabbis. I have said that I do know several good Chabad Rabbis in my area and I have discussed my concern about this issue with several of them. I do have a friend who is the Mashgiach in the Kitchen at the school I daven for Shabbat with who was raised in a Chabadnik house in New York. He has revealed to me that he has known some Chabad followers who believed that the Rabbi was Moshiach.
But I have asked the Rabbis who I respect their position. And I have heard clearly that they don't believe that he was Moshiach. I myself feel that he could have been Moshiach had he risen to the level of the leader of Israel, but just as other potential Moshiachs he failed to achieve being labeled Moshiach. I also believe that Rabbi Kahane had Moshiach potential...
But I am just tired of hearing the complaints against Chabad. Indeed it is incorrect to believe that the Lubavitch Rebbe was Moshiach. There is no valid argument to make which can prove that he was. I vaguely remember the arguments my friend explained to me but it didn't really make sense in the end.
It is good to warn people from these beliefs. But any criticism should also be given with respect for the good which Chabad is doing every day. And the ultimate goal which the Chabad Rabbis have is to bring every Jew back to mitzvot Observance.
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