Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Shalom
Zelhar:
--- Quote from: Tag-MahirTzedek on April 09, 2012, 03:47:03 PM --- He misquoted it, The ressurection of the dead is mentioned in the Torah in a number of places, the Rambam brings them down as well (for example from Isaia, and other places).
What we were arguing is something else, it was about gilgulim- reincarnations. These are different things entirely.
--- End quote ---
Isaiah is not the Torah but Neviim, and Daniel is not even Neviim but from Ktuvim. Isn't it strange the farther you go from Torah the more elaborate phantasy you get regarding the resurrection of the dead ?
muman613:
--- Quote from: Zelhar on April 09, 2012, 04:02:12 PM ---Isaiah is not the Torah but Neviim, and Daniel is not even Neviim but from Ktuvim. Isn't it strange the farther you go from Torah the more elaborate phantasy you get regarding the resurrection of the dead ?
--- End quote ---
You seem uninformed because Jews consider ALL OF TANACH to be Torah...
The entire TORAH, the Chumash/5 books, the Prophets, and the Writings and the Oral Law are all considered Holy to Jews. The Word Torah means 'Teachings' it does not mean only the 5 books... We call the Five Books of Moses Chumash... The Prophets were divine in origin and we always believe that Moses was the most high of the prophets {who spoke 'face to face' with Hashem} but all Prophets {and prophecy is discussed in the Torah, and Hashem promises to send us prophets} were able to 'speak' with Hashem.
There are FUNDAMENTAL Jewish concepts. They are not invented by outsiders. The Mesorah {chain of transmission} is laid out in the Pirkie Avot and also RAMBAM records the chain of transmission of these ideas. The Oral laws are as much Torah as the Chumash, for the Torah means virtually nothing without the explanation of the Oral law.
http://www.torah.org/learning/basics/primer/torah/oraltorah.html
--- Quote ---What is the Oral Torah?
As mentioned earlier, there are two "Torahs": the Written and the Oral. In Jewish tradition, both were given to Moses at Mt. Sinai and during the forty years in the desert, and taught to the whole nation. [In fact, when Judaism says "G-d gave the Torah to Moses at Sinai" it is talking only about the Oral -- otherwise, Moses should have known about the Golden Calf, and as for Korach's Rebellion, Moses should have reacted "well, we've been expecting you..."]
Both have been with us, according to Jewish sources, for all of the past 3300 years. And without both, it is impossible to fully understand traditional Jewish teaching or thought. The Written Torah, mentiones each of the Commandments, or Mitzvos, only in passing or by allusion. The Oral Law fills in the gaps.
Here is an example: "And you shall tie them as a sign on your arm and for (Totafos) between your eyes." (Deut. 6 8) This is the source for the Mitzvah of Tefillin (phylacteries - if that's any clearer), but it doesn't tell us that much. From this alone, we'd never know how to do this Mitzvah. What are we supposed to tie to the arm? With what do we tie it? What are "Totafos?" What is it a sign of? Without the Oral Law, quite simply, there's no Mitzvah of Tefillin. And there aren't too many other Mitzvos that'll make much sense either. Not, that is, without some form of commentary.
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muman613:
According to the Great Rationalist Rambam there were 40 generations from Rav Ashi to Moses...
From the Mishneh Torah:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/901698/jewish/Part-1.htm
Thus, there were forty generations from Rav Ashi back to Moses, our teacher, of blessed memory. They were:
1) Rav Ashi [received the tradition] from Ravva.
2) Ravva [received the tradition] from Rabbah.
3) Rabbah [received the tradition] from Rav Huna.
4) Rav Huna [received the tradition] from Rabbi Yochanan, Rav, and Shemuel.
5) Rabbi Yochanan, Rav, and Shemuel [received the tradition] from Rabbenu Hakadosh.
6) Rabbenu Hakadosh [received the tradition] from Rabbi Shimon, his father.
7) Rabbi Shimon [received the tradition] from Rabban Gamliel, his father.
8) Rabban Gamliel [received the tradition] from Rabban Shimon, his father.
9) Rabban Shimon [received the tradition] from Rabban Gamliel, the elder, his father.
10) Rabban Gamliel, the elder, [received the tradition] from Rabban Shimon, his father.
11) Rabban Shimon [received the Tradition] from Hillel, his father, and Shammai.
12) Hillel and Shammai [received the tradition] from Shemayah and Avtalion.
13) Shemayah and Avtalion [received the tradition] from Yehudah and Shimon [ben Shatach].
14) Yehudah and Shimon [received the tradition] from Yehoshua ben Perachiah and Nittai of Arbel.
15) Yehoshua and Nittai [received the tradition] from Yosse ben Yo'ezer and Yosef ben Yochanan.
16) Yosse ben Yo'ezer and Yosef ben Yochanan [received the tradition] from Antignos.
17) Antignos [received the tradition] from Shimon the Just.
18) Shimon the Just [received the tradition] from Ezra.
19) Ezra [received the tradition] from Baruch.
20) Baruch [received the tradition] from Jeremiah.
21) Jeremiah [received the tradition] from Tzefaniah.
22) Tzefaniah [received the tradition] from Chabbakuk.
23) Chabbakuk [received the tradition] from Nachum.
24) Nachum [received the tradition] from Yoel.
25) Yoel [received the tradition] from Michah.
26) Michah [received the tradition] from Isaiah.
27) Isaiah [received the tradition] from Amos.
28) Amos [received the tradition] from Hoshea.
29) Hoshea [received the tradition] from Zechariah.
30) Zechariah [received the tradition] from Yehoyada.
31) Yehoyada [received the tradition] from Elisha.
32) Elisha [received the tradition] from Elijah.
33) Elijah [received the tradition] from Achiah.
34) Achiah [received the tradition] from David.
35) David [received the tradition] from Shemuel.
36) Shemuel [received the tradition] from Eli.
37) Eli [received the tradition] from Pinchas.
38) Pinchas [received the tradition] from Joshua.
39) Joshua [received the tradition] from Moses, our teacher.
40) Moses, our teacher, [received the tradition] from the Almighty.
Thus, [the source of] all these people's knowledge is G-d, the Lord of Israel.
From the Mishneh Torah:
--- Quote ---Rabbenu Hakadosh composed the Mishnah. From the days of Moses, our teacher, until Rabbenu Hakadosh, no one had composed a text for the purpose of teaching the Oral Law in public. Instead, in each generation, the head of the court or the prophet of that generation would take notes of the teachings which he received from his masters for himself, and teach them verbally in public. Similarly, according to his own potential, each individual would write notes for himself of what he heard regarding the explanation of the Torah, its laws, and the new concepts that were deduced in each generation concerning laws that were not communicated by the oral tradition, but rather deduced using one of the thirteen principles of Biblical exegesis and accepted by the high court.
This situation continued until [the age of] Rabbenu Hakadosh. He collected all the teachings, all the laws, and all the explanations and commentaries that were heard from Moses, our teacher, and which were taught by the courts in each generation concerning the entire Torah. From all these, he composed the text of the Mishnah. He taught it to the Sages in public and revealed it to the Jewish people, who all wrote it down. They spread it in all places so that the Oral Law would not be forgotten by the Jewish people.
Why did Rabbenu Hakadosh make [such an innovation] instead of perpetuating the status quo? Because he saw the students becoming fewer, new difficulties constantly arising, the Roman Empire18 spreading itself throughout the world and becoming more powerful, and the Jewish people wandering and becoming dispersed to the far ends of the world. [Therefore,] he composed a single text that would be available to everyone, so that it could be studied quickly and would not be forgotten.19 Throughout his entire life, he and his court taught the Mishnah to the masses.
These are the great Sages who were part of the court of Rabbenu Hakadosh and who received the tradition from him: His sons, Shimon and Gamliel, Rabbi Effess, Rabbi Chanina ben Chama, Rabbi Chiyya, Rav, Rabbi Yannai, bar Kafra, Shemuel, Rabbi Yochanan, Rabbi Hoshaia. Thousands and myriads of other sages received the tradition from [Rabbenu Hakadosh] together with these great sages.
Even though all of the eleven sages mentioned above received the tradition from Rabbenu Hakadosh and attended his study sessions, [there are differences between them. At that time,] Rabbi Yochanan was of lesser stature. Afterwards, he became a disciple of Rabbi Yannai and received instruction from him. Similarly, Rav received the tradition from Rabbi Yannai, and Shemuel received the tradition from Rabbi Chanina ben Chama.20
--- End quote ---
See also : http://www.beingjewish.com/mesorah/
--- Quote ---http://www.beingjewish.com/mesorah/howtoask.html
Asking Questions
Judaism is the way of life that Hashem gave us at Mount Sinai, and taught to us in the Sinai Desert.
It includes a Written Torah and an Oral Torah.
It has always included an Oral Torah, and in fact, some of the Commandments were first taught to us orally before we had them in writing. But by and the large, we were taught both at the same time. Hashem would recite a paragraph of the Written Torah to Moses, telling him what to write, letter by letter. Hashem would then teach Moses the details of that Law, along with the deeper meanings, the applications of that Law, and all concepts related to it.
It is impossible to fulfill the Commandments of the Torah without the Oral Torah, because we need to know those details.
On the other hand, if we had only the Oral Torah, it would be possible to fulfill the Commandments. The Written Torah's function is primarily to prevent the Oral Torah from being forgotten.
The Written Torah is similar to a series of very brief notes a student writes at a lecture. I attended a class once in which I wrote in my notebook: "DY = 2; SY = 1." Do you have any idea what that means? How could you? It means: "A double yellow line in the middle of the road means it is a two-way road, a single yellow line means it is a one-way road." When you know what was said in the class, the notes make perfect sense to you. If you do not know what was said at the lecture, you cannot understand the notes.
Hashem created the Torah two thousand years before He created the universe. That refers to both the Written Torah and the Oral Torah. The Oral Torah is the extended "lecture." The Written Torah contains the brief notes that make certain that we do not forget the "lecture." Thus, in a sense, the Oral Torah gives us the context of the Written Torah.
I sometimes get questions from people who insist that I prove something from "Scriptural sources." Christians, and those who follow their example, will accept only what is written in the Written Torah. (Which is surprising, considering the fact that they don't obey the Scriptures anyway.)
Well, sorry, but quoting Scripture is not necessary. Judaism includes both a Written Torah and an Oral Torah, and it has always included both. If it is in the Oral Torah, it is Torah, and that's a good enough source. If neither the Written nor the Oral Torah mention something, then it is not Torah. But if the Talmud teaches something, it is Torah, and therefore it is Judaism.
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Zelhar:
--- Quote from: muman613 on April 09, 2012, 04:07:41 PM ---You seem uninformed because Jews consider ALL OF TANACH to be Torah...
The entire TORAH, the Chumash/5 books, the Prophets, and the Writings and the Oral Law are all considered Holy to Jews. The Word Torah means 'Teachings' it does not mean only the 5 books... We call the Five Books of Moses Chumash... The Prophets were divine in origin and we always believe that Moses was the most high of the prophets {who spoke 'face to face' with Hashem} but all Prophets {and prophecy is discussed in the Torah, and Hashem promises to send us prophets} were able to 'speak' with Hashem.
There are FUNDAMENTAL Jewish concepts. They are not invented by outsiders. The Mesorah {chain of transmission} is laid out in the Pirkie Avot and also RAMBAM records the chain of transmission of these ideas. The Oral laws are as much Torah as the Chumash, for the Torah means virtually nothing without the explanation of the Oral law.
http://www.torah.org/learning/basics/primer/torah/oraltorah.html
--- End quote ---
This is false revisionism. Only the Torah is written on a scroll by hand and kept in its special cabin in the synagogue. It is clearly obvious that the Torah trumps Neviim which trumps Ketuvim. All are holy, but there are very obvious ranking.
muman613:
So you admit there are many things in Judaism which are 'EXTRA-RATIONAL' meaning beyond a rational explanation.
Many Jewish laws are considered Chukim, meaning laws which have no rational explanation.... I would like to hear a rationalist give a good reason for how the Red Heifer works {transmitting impurity from the sinner to the kohen}? Even the greatest Jewish sages could not comprehend this law, and yet people expect rational explanations?
Obviously we are aware you did not come up with questions about the Zohar on your own. I have heard the arguments many times, bother here in the forum, and elsewhere.
I listen and learn from Rabbis and form my understanding based on whether the concept is accepted or rejected by the majority of the Rabbis I know. Hashem granted the right to determine halacha to the Sanhedrin and the sages according to certain precepts {called Exegesis}.
You mention damage done by Zohar? What is the damage according to you? I wonder just how long you have studied the Torah and how many Rabbis you have consulted before making your pronouncements on Zohar and mysticism in general.
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