Shalom

[Dan Ben Noah]

Shalom

[muman613]

Regarding Rambams comments on Astrology there appear to be issues he did not address. I realize that Jews should not consult the stars to determine if and when things are going to happen but the reason is not because there is no truth in the stars. The reason a Jew should not consult the starts or engage in Astrology is because a Jew is 'Above the Stars'.

The Talmud contains much information about the traits of people born under different signs:

http://www.webshas.org/science/misc/super/mazalos.htm

Zodiac
Whether Mazal depends on the day of the week, or the path of the planets: Shabbat 156a
[Im-]Permissibility of using an astrologer: Shabbat 156b, Pesachim 113b [See Rashbam]
The paths and hours of the planets: R. Shabbat 129b "DeKayyma"
Considering varieties of eclipses to be ominous: Succah 29a
Considering the Sun to be emblematic of the nations of the world, and the Moon to be emblematic of the Jews: Succah 29a
One born under the sign of the Sun will be radiant and self-sufficient, and will hold no secrets: Shabbat 156a
One born under the sign of the Moon will suffer bad occurrences, will destroy and build, will build and destroy, will live off of others, and will have secrets: Shabbat 156a
One born under the sign of Mercury will be wise and radiant: Shabbat 156a
One born under the sign of Venus will be rich and adulterous: Shabbat 156a
One born under the sign of Mars will be a shedder of blood: Shabbat 156a
One born under the sign of Jupiter will be righteous and generous: Shabbat 156a
One born under the sign of Saturn will have plans which do not reach fruition; alternatively, the plans of others against him will not reach fruition: Shabbat 156a
Fire "depends on" the Mazal of Venus: Shabbat 156a
The Mazal of Mercury is the assistant to that of the Sun: Shabbat 156a

Mazal
Mazal as a general influence, which a person may use positively or negatively: Shabbat 156a
Astrologers and sorcerers prophesy without understanding what they are seeing: Sotah 12b
Having Children, life-span, and financial success depend upon Mazal: Moed Katan 28a
People have Mazal, protecting them from harm: Bava Kama 2b [See Rashi]
Whether Mazal affects wisdom and wealth: Shabbat 156a
Whether Jews have Mazal or not: Shabbat 156a-b; Succah 29a; Nedarim 32a
Whether Mazal affects those who do Mitzvos: Shabbat 156b
The Mazal of Converts was at the Giving of the Torah: Shabbat 146a
Rich People are at less risk from Ketev-Spirits, because their Mazal is good: Rashbam Pesachim 111b "Shaata"
Angel of Livelihood appreciates neatness, Angel of Poverty enjoys sloppiness: Pesachim 111b
Combing a dry scalp, drinking drips from a wine barrel, and placing shoes on wet feet, are causes of Blindness: Pesachim 111b
Publicizing word of one's illness: Nedarim 40a
Placing bread, as opposed to fish or meat, in a hanging basket, can lead to poverty: Pesachim 111b
Having bran or the remains of bread around can lead to poverty: Pesachim 111b
Having a dish atop a barrel can lead to poverty: Pesachim 111b
Beruksi comes from drinking water from a dish: Pesachim 111b
Saying a form of "LeChayyim" ["To Life"] before drinking wine: Shabbat 67b
Mazal of the months of Av and Adar: Taanit 29a-b
Pharaoh had the boys thrown in the river because his astrologers informed him that the Jews' redeemer would die by water. In fact, this prophecy referred to Moses's problem with the Waters of Merivah, when he hit the rock: Sotah 12b
Ex-communication of Barak on "Mayroz" who was either one of Sisra's leaders or Sisra's Mazal: Moed Katan 16a
Daniel perceived a group of Angels, although Chananiah, Misha'el and Azariah did not; their Mazal did, though: Megillah 3a

[muman613]

For reference here is an excerpt from Talmud Mesechet Shabbat 156a

http://halakhah.com/shabbath/shabbath_156.html

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It was recorded in R. Joshua b. Levi's notebook: He who [is born] on the first day of the week [Sunday] shall be a man without one [thing] in him — What does 'without one [thing] in him' mean? Shall we say, without one virtue?16  Surely R. Ashi said: I was born on the first day of the week! Hence it must surely mean, one vice. But Surely R. Ashi said: I and Dimi b. Kakuzta were born on the first day of the week: I am a king17  and he is the captain of thieves!18  — Rather it means either completely virtuous or completely wicked.19  [What is the reason? Because light and darkness were created on that day.]20  He who is born on the second day of the week will be bad-tempered — What is the reason? Because the waters were divided thereon.21  He who is born on the third day of the week will be wealthy and unchaste. What is the reason? Because herbs were created thereon.22  He who is born on the fourth day of the week will be wise and of a retentive memory.23  What is the reason? Because the luminaries were suspended [thereon] — He who is born on the fifth day of the week will practise benevolence. What is the reason? Because the fishes and birds were created thereon.24  He who is born on the eve of the Sabbath will be a seeker. R. Nahman b. Isaac commented: A seeker after good deeds.25  He who is born on the Sabbath will die on the Sabbath, because the great day of the Sabbath was desecrated on his account. Raba son of R. Shila observed: And he shall be called a great and holy man.26

R. Hanina said to then, [his disciples]: Go out and tell the son of Levi, Not the constellation of the day but that of the hour is the determining influence. He who is born under the constellation of the sun27  will be a distinguished28  man: he will eat and drink of his own and his secrets will lie uncovered; if a thief, he will have no success. He who is born under Venus will be wealthy and unchaste [immoral]. What is the reason? Because fire was created therein.29  He who is born under Mercury will be of a retentive memory and wise. What is the reason? Because it [Mercury] is the sun's scribe. He who is born under the Moon will be a man to suffer evil, building and demolishing, demolishing and building. eating and drinking that which is not his and his secrets will remain hidden: if a thief, he will be successful.30  He who is born under Saturn will be a man whose plans will be frustrated.31  Others say: All [nefarious] designs against him will be frustrated. He who is born under Zedek [Jupiter] will be a right-doing man [zadkan] R. Nahman b. Isaac observed: Right-doing in good deeds.32  He who is born under Mars will be a shedder of blood. R. Ashi observed: Either a surgeon, a thief, a slaughterer, or a circumciser. Rabbah said: I was born under Mars.33  Abaye retorted: You too inflict punishment and kill.34

It was stated. R. Hanina said: The planetary influence gives wisdom, the planetary influence gives wealth, and Israel stands under planetary influence. R. Johanan maintained: Israel is immune from planetary influence.35  Now, R. Johanan is consistent with his view, for R. Johanan said: How do we know that Israel is immune from planetary influence? Because it is said, Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the nations, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven, for the nations are dismayed at them:36  they are dismayed but not Israel.37  Rab too holds that Israel is immune from planetary influence. For Rab Judah said in Rab's name: How do we know that Israel is immune from planetary influence? Because it is said, and he brought him forth from abroad.38  Abraham pleaded before the Holy One, blessed be He, 'Sovereign of the Universe! one born in mine house is mine heir.'39  'Not so,' He replied, 'but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels.'40  'Sovereign of the Universe!' cried he, 'I have looked at my constellation and find that I am not fated to beget child.' 'Go forth from [i.e., cease] thy planet [gazing], for Israel is free from planetary influence. What is thy calculation?.
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156b

Shabbath 156b

Because Zedek [Jupiter]1  stands in the West?2  I will turn it back and place it in the East.' And thus it is written, Who hath raised up Zedek from the east?3  He hath summoned it for his sake.4

From Samuel too [we learn that] Israel is immune from planetary influence. For Samuel and Ablat were sitting, while certain people were going to a lake.5  Said Ablat6  to Samuel: 'That man is going but will not return, [for] a snake will bite him and he will die.' 'If he is an Israelite,' replied Samuel. 'he will go and return.'7  While they were sitting he went and returned. [Thereupon] Ablat arose and threw off his [the man's] knapsack, [and] found a snake therein cut up and lying in two pieces — Said Samuel to him, 'What did you do?'8  'Every day we pooled our bread and ate it; but to-day one of us had no bread, and he was ashamed. Said I to them, "I will go and collect [the bread]".9  When I came to him, I pretended to take [bread] from him, so that he should not be ashamed.' 'You have done a good deed,' said he to him. Then Samuel went out and lectured: But charity10  delivereth from death;11  and [this does not mean] from an unnatural death, but from death itself.

From R. Akiba too [we learn that] Israel is free from planetary influence. For R. Akiba had a daughter. Now, astrologers12  told him, On the day she enters the bridal chamber a snake will bite her and she will die. He was very worried about this. On that day [of her marriage] she took a brooch [and] stuck it into the wall and by chance it penetrated [sank] into the eye of a serpent. The following morning, when she took it out, the snake came trailing after it. 'What did you do?' her father asked her. 'A poor man came to our door in the evening.' she replied, 'and everybody was busy at the banquet, and there was none to attend to him. So I took the portion which was given to me and gave it to him. 'You have done a good deed,' said he to her. Thereupon R. Akiba went out and lectured: 'But charity delivereth from death': and not [merely] from an unnatural death, but from death itself.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Regarding Rambams comments on Astrology there appear to be issues he did not address. I realize that Jews should not consult the stars to determine if and when things are going to happen but the reason is not because there is no truth in the stars. The reason a Jew should not consult the starts or engage in Astrology is because a Jew is 'Above the Stars'.

 Rambam clearly rejects astrology and does maintain that their is no truth to it. See his letter on this.
http://people.bu.edu/dklepper/RN242/rambam2.html

[muman613]

Rambam calls those who believe in astrology fools.

Well that is only namecalling and not addressing the issue. I will address the Jewish view on Astrology in a future thread. There are points I disagree with Rambam concerning this based on various sources I will bring.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Well that is only namecalling and not addressing the issue. I will address the Jewish view on Astrology in a future thread. There are points I disagree with Rambam concerning this based on various sources I will bring.

 He did address the issue. He was pointing out that Rambam's view of those who believed in astrology.
 You also claimed that the Rambam didn't address the issue, he precisly DID, check out the link I provided (ps. please don't take it personally and be offended).

[muman613]

He did address the issue. He was pointing out that Rambam's view of those who believed in astrology.
 You also claimed that the Rambam didn't address the issue, he precisly DID, check out the link I provided (ps. please don't take it personally and be offended).

I have not fully read the link you provided but upon a simple examination it does not seem to address these particular statements of the Torah and the Talmud which support the idea that there is some truth in the forces of nature. Is there an argument that the forces of gravity and the forces of magnetism, while invisible, still do not exist? All of nature exists according to the laws of nature.

I will continue my point in the thread I will start this evening or tomorrow. I can understand how it seems strange to say what I am saying but it is from the Torah and it should be discussed.

I already posted the links to the Talmud and other sources for the Torah view of Mazal. It is from these sources I will explain this idea.

[muman613]

Without having looked too far into it yet, in history there was a time when there really wasn't a separation of astronomy and astrology, so astrology may have just been taken for granted by certain Sages of the Talmud times, similar to the way Rambam accepted certain scientific knowledge from the Greeks which is now outdated, which he included in some of the Mishneh Torah chapters.  That's what I believe this to be.  I certainly don't think the Torah teaches that astrology is authentic but Jews just aren't supposed to use it.  And the fact that there is Halacha telling them not to consult astrologers shows how HaShem has safeguarded the Jewish people against falsehood even when it was a common belief of the times.  But I could see how the mystical movements could sieze upon these Talmudic discussions and come up with a whole developed astrological theology which has no practical benefit for Judaism, because that's the type of thing they are in the business of doing.

Hashem doesn't need to forbid us from something which has no truth. People do not believe something unless it has worked for them. As I have discussed previously the Torah even relates that the Egyptians consulted astrologers to forecast the coming of the Jewish savior. This again proves the point that those who consult the stars are doomed to be judged by the stars, while the Jewish people, as promised to Abraham our father, are above the stars.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Hashem doesn't need to forbid us from something which has no truth.

 Yes He does. Idolatry has no truth and its completly forbidden.