Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Shalom
Tag-MehirTzedek:
--- Quote from: muman613 on May 16, 2012, 12:35:39 AM ---Lets throw Rambams books into the fire... Like they used to do...
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Your acting childish. You suggest burning the Rambam's books why? To get back at Dan? And one regret of the Rambam was that he didn't provide the sources of his Halachot.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Tag-MahirTzedek on May 16, 2012, 07:25:06 PM --- Your acting childish. You suggest burning the Rambam's books why? To get back at Dan? And one regret of the Rambam was that he didn't provide the sources of his Halachot.
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Yes, I said this in anger. But my point was that there was a time when Rambams books were burned.
Ephraim Ben Noach:
You guys do gang up on Muman ...
muman613:
--- Quote from: Ephraim on May 16, 2012, 09:03:25 PM ---You guys do gang up on Muman ...
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Thanks Ephraim but I dont look at it like this... I really believe everyone involved is attempting to find the truth. Sometimes my truth doesn't jibe with what others consider truth so we 'hash it out' by engaging in an age old tradition of Jewish arguing.
muman613:
One issue I would like to discuss is the counting of people. On Shabbat we are not supposed to count people but we have a problem in a small community. How do we know when we have a minyan {10 adult Jewish males} without counting them. There also is a Torah prohibition on counting Jews which means we have to figure out a way to determine if we have a minyan without doing a numerical count...
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/896203/jewish/Laws-of-Counting-Jews.htm
--- Quote ---Laws of Counting Jews
Parshat Bamidbar
By Aryeh Citron
The first part of the Book of Numbers discusses the census of the Israelites that Moses conducted after the erection of the Tabernacle. Several reasons are given for this census; among them:
1) Out of love for His people, G‑d counted us at important junctures of our history. The completion of the Tabernacle was one of these occasions.1 2) To ensure that the Jews had sufficient numbers to merit the dwelling of the Divine presence upon them.2 3) To ascertain how many warriors the Jews would have in their upcoming battles to conquer Canaan.
Nachmanides3 explains that rather than count the people directly, the method of counting was to collect a half-shekel coin from each person and then count the coins.
"And the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which shall neither be measured nor counted." This method is described in the book of Exodus, in the context of an earlier census4: "When you take the sum of the children of Israel according to their numbers, let each one give to G‑d an atonement for his soul when they are counted; then there will be no plague among them when they are counted. This they shall give, everyone who goes through the counting: half a shekel..."
To actually count Jews directly is forbidden,5 as the prophet6 says: "And the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which shall neither be measured nor counted."
What is the reason for this prohibition? The commentaries say that counting Jews directly can bring a judgment on the individuals who, if not deemed worthy, may be punished.7
In addition, the Panim Yafot8 explains that when the Jews are in a state of unity, they are connected to their Source and do not need added protection. When they are counted as individuals, they become "separated" and are subject to individual scrutiny.
For this reason, King Saul counted his army by means of requiring each soldier to submit one shard of pottery, which he then counted,9 and later on by using kid goats.10
King David, on the other hand, forgot this prohibition and counted the Jews directly.11 This resulted in a plague which killed some 70,000 Jews.
Some say that King David certainly did not forget the prohibition, and he, too, counted the Jews indirectly; the problem was that he performed the count simply to satisfy his own curiosity, and not for a specific purpose. Counting Jews without a purpose is forbidden even if done indirectly.12
Although the prohibition against counting Jews is not included in the Code of Jewish Law, it is discussed by the later Halachic authorities.13
Some of the details of this law are:
1) In place of counting individuals, it is permitted to count a particular body part such as noses or fingers.14 However, the commentaries say that one should not use a limb whose removal would be life threatening.15
2) When counting for a minyan, it is customary to use a Torah verse that contains ten words instead of using numbers.16 The verse usually used is: "Hoshiah et amecha u'varech et nachalatecha ur'em venas'em ad ha'olam." "Save Your people and bless Your inheritance, and tend them and elevate them forever."17
3) Another common method is to say: "Not one, not two, etc."
4) Some permit counting if it is done in one's mind and not audibly.18 Others forbid this kind of counting as well.19
5) Once one has counted in a permissible way, it is not forbidden to say the actual total number of people. We see this from the fact that the total numbers of the various tribes are stated in the Torah.
6) One should educate children to observe this law.20
7) A Jew may not participate in a counting even if he is not the one actually doing the counting. When a census is conducted in Israel, there is some controversy as to whether it is halachically acceptable to participate.21
One argument for allowing participation is that the counting is only of written names and not of actual people. In addition, the total numbers produced by the census include many non-Jews. Many contemporary halachic authorities agree that one should not participate in the census unless it is done in such a way that the number of people per family is simply not calculated.22
FOOTNOTES
1. Rashi on Numbers 1:1.
2. Kli Yakar ibid.
3. Ibid. verses 2 & 3.
4. Exodus 30:12-13.
5. Talmud, Yoma 22b.
6. Hosea 2:1. Also the haftorah for the Torah reading of Bamidbar (with the exception of those years when that Shabbat is the day before Rosh Chodesh, when the haftorah of Machar Chodesh is read instead of the regular haftorah.
7. See Rashi and other commentaries to Exodus ibid.
8. Exodus ibid.
9. I Samuel 11: 8.
10. Ibid. 15:4.
11. See II Samuel ch. 24.
12. Nachmanides ibid.
13. Magen Avrohom, s. 156; Alter Rebbe's Shulchan Aruch 156:15.
14. Magen Avraham ibid. See Yoma 22b, that this is how they would count the Kohanim in the Holy Temple.
15. See Rashi on Yoma ibid. d.h.Venimninhu.
16. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 15:3.
17. Psalms 28:10.
The Rebbe points out that since this verse is actually a prayer for the ultimate redemption, we see that the first thing Jews pray for when they gather in a group is for the redemption (Sha'arei Halacha Uminhag vol. 1, p. 137).
18. Kaf HaChaim Orach Chaim 55:11.
19. Eitz Yosef on Yoma ibid.
20. Responsa of Shevet Halevi, vol. 1, s. 34.
21. See responsa Tzitz Eliezer, vol. 7, s. 3; Shevet Halevi ibid.; Shevet Halevi vol. 9 Responsa 35.
22. Shevet HaLevi ibid.
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See also: http://www.jewishanswers.org/index.php?p=1484
--- Quote ---Minyan Counting
In counting a minyan, one is not supposed to “count” the people. So, custom says, count “not one, not two…” What is the tradition of reciting the ten words of Torah? What verse is recited?
As you correctly point out, one may not count individuals, even for the purpose of determining a minyan. Instead, as you correctly point out, the custom has developed to recite a verse from Tanach which contains 10 words, “counting” one word per person. This custom is rather ancient, dating back at least as far as Rav Hai Gaon (10th century).
There are two verses traditionally used (but there is nothing wrong with using any verse with 10 words):
Psalms 28:9
Psalms 5:8
Be well,
Rabbi Yoel Spotts
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