Responses to an article written about the Zohar

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/component/content/article/34-featured/593-responses-to-an-article-written-about-the-zohar

[muman613]

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/component/content/article/34-featured/593-responses-to-an-article-written-about-the-zohar

I agree with some of his points but strongly disagree with several other of his points. I don't wish to go into details as to which I agree or disagree but I find this rabbis style very antagonistic, and thus don't get any insight from his position.

[Israel Chai]

Do you know some good kabalah teachers? I get way more from speeches and reflections on it by others then reading it a second time myself... thanks a lot.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I agree with some of his points but strongly disagree with several other of his points. I don't wish to go into details as to which I agree or disagree but I find this rabbis style very antagonistic, and thus don't get any insight from his position.

 His responses are clear and (IMO) very true and correct.
   What does being "antagonistic" or not have to do with the truth? Your telling me you wish someone to lie to you as long as they are being "nice" or not antagonistic as yopu put it. Maybe you mean "confrontational" as a better word. But who cares? You are on JTF aren't you? you do agree with Rav Kahane don't you? Don't you know that he was very confrontational and antagonistic to the Hellinists and the deformers who are and were trying to destroy the authentic Judaism.
 Just because something offends you doesn't make it not the truth. In fact maybe the opposite. Maybe his words are getting to you and the acceptance of the truth is sometimes hard (i'm not singling you out, just saying that that happens in life and the psychology of people).

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Do you know some good kabalah teachers? I get way more from speeches and reflections on it by others then reading it a second time myself... thanks a lot.

 I'm guessing you didn't read the article, not this one and not the one's before. Do not get involved in what today is popularly referred to as "kabbalah".

[Israel Chai]

Oh what you don't like the Zohar? I would listen to full on sermons on it...

[muman613]

Tag,

The problem is that several points were just clearly wrong. For instance:

11. For a very select few, capable of conceiving of sophisticated constructs and analogies, Qabala can engender enlightenment. For most Jews, however, and for the historical collective of K'lal Yisrael, it has led to much that is pernicious. The most glaring example is the criminal passivity and delusional attitude towards Redemption that is evident wherever Qabala thrives. In this sense, Qabala and Zionism are diametrically opposed, and to the extent that Judaism in general was influenced by such thinking, particularly over the last 5 centuries, Zionism justifiably viewed itself as the antithesis of Judaism. And this is an immense tragedy, because the healthy aspects of Zionism – namely, that we are required to create G'ula by our own real-world actions as prescribed by the Tora – have always been part and parcel of authentic Tora Judaism.

What he said here is patently false. All the great Kabbalistic masters are buried in Eretz Yisroel, they all stressed the importance of living in Eretz Yisroel, they all emigrated to Israel and established Yeshivot.

I find more Chassids who are pro Israel than I find non-Chassidic. Breslov has established its presence in Israel and there are Breslov Rabbis who served and support serving in the IDF. Chabad also is pro-Zionist...

I don't know where this rabbi comes up with this stuff. My only conclusion is this guy likes to blame the Chassidim for all the problems.

There are other issues which this rabbi discusses which I also find hard to believe and think that this guy is just trying to play divide an conquer.

[muman613]

Kabbalistic Rabbis Buried in Israel:


http://ascentofsafed.com/cgi-bin/ascent.cgi?Name=sagelist

Famous Sages and Kabbalists from the Golden Era of Zefat (16th century)
(plus these first two from 1500 years and more before that)
 
Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai
The presence of the burial site of the Mishnaic sage and author of the teachings of the Zohar, Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, in nearby Meron at the exact same altitude as Zefat is said to be a major factor in the original settlement of so many Kabbalists in Zefat.

Yonatan Ben Uziel
Another great sage, from the Second Temple era, Yonatan Ben Uziel, whose tomb is one of Israel's busiest pilgrimage sites, is buried in a beautiful valley just outside of Zefat.

Rabbi Yitzchak Luria
(1534-1572)
Known as "the Ari" (an acronym for "the G-dly Rabbi Yitzchak"; lit. "Lion"). Revolutionized the study of Kabbalah during the two years he spent in Zefat before his death at 38. Despite the brevity of his teaching career, his intricate and profound system spans at least ten large and terse volumes (written by his students) totaling thousands of pages. For more, click here.

Rabbi Yosef Caro
(1488-1575)
Codifier and Kabbalist, student of Rabbis Yaakov Beirav and Shlomo Al-Kabets, chief rabbi of Zefat from 1546. Author of several major works, including the Shulchan Aruch ("The Prepared Table"--Code of Jewish Law), a compendium of the laws of the Torah governing a Jew's entire life: personal, social, family, business, and religious. Notwithstanding subsequent revisions, it remains the foremost authoritative work on Jewish law and practice and is universally accepted by Jews the world over. For more, click here.

Rabbi Chaim Vital
(1543-1620)
Student of Rabbis Moshe Al-Sheich and Moshe Cordevero, but best known as the main disciple of Rabbi Yitzchak Luria and the authoritative redactor of his doctrines, as recorded in Etz Chaim ("Tree of Life"). Pri Etz Chaim ("Fruit of the Tree of Life"), and Shmoneh Sha'arim ("Eight Gates"). Author of several books of his own as well.For more, click here.

Rabbi Yosef Saragossi
(14xx-?)
First chief rabbi in Tsfat's recorded history. Laid groundwork in 1490's-early 1500's for Zefat to subsequently become a major center of Torah scholarship. Sometimes known as "Tzadik HaLavan" because of a miracle that occurred in his name. For more, click here.

Rabbi Yaakov Beirav
(1474-1546)
Talmudist, spice trader, chief rabbi of Zefat from 1536. In 1538 he tried to reinstitute semichah (the original "rabbinical ordination," which had been transmitted in an unbroken chain from Moses until the 4th century, when it was discontinued due to persecutions at that time) in anticipation of the coming of Messiah. After receiving the first ordination, he ordained Rabbis Yosef Caro, Moshe of Trani, Yosef Sagis, and Moshe Cordevero, but due to opposition, the plan was never officially accepted.

Rabbi Moshe of Trani
(1501-1580)
Major student of R. Yaakov Beirav and member of his Beit Din ("rabbinical court") along with R. Yosef Caro. Succeeded R. Yosef Caro as chief Rabbi of Zefat.

Rabbi Yosef Sagis
(?-1573)
Colleague of Rabbis Yosef Caro and Moshe of Trani. Founder of an association of G-d fearing men who, among other things, met every Friday afternoon to review the righteousness of their actions during that week.

Rabbi Shlomo Al-Kabets
(1508-1593)
Author of the famous liturgical poem "Lecha Dodi" (Come My Beloved"), sung by Jews worldwide to welcome the Shabbat. Author of many works. For more, click here.

Rabbi Moshe Al-Sheich
(1508-1593)
Kabbalist, homilist, and jurist. Student of R. Yosef Caro and member of his Beit Din. Rabbi Yitzchak Luria refused to teach him, insisting that R. Al-Sheich's soul had entered this world for homiletic exposition, not Kabbalah. Author of many works, including important analytical commentaries on Scriptures. For more, click here.

Rabbi Moshe Kordevero
(1522-1570)
Known by the anacronym of his name: Ramak. Considered the head of the Zefat Kabbalists until his death shortly after the arrival of Rabbi Yitzchak Luria.  Author of many major works of Kabbalah, including Pardes Rimonim ("Orchard of Pomegranates"), in which he systematized all kabbalistic knowledge that had been revealed until then. For more, click here.

Rabbi Eliyahu of Vidas
(1518-1592)
Student of Rabbi Moshe Cordevero. Author of Reishit Chochma, an important ethical treatise based on the teachings of the Zohar.

Rabbi Elisha Gallico
(1526-1589) Student of Rabbi Yosef Caro and member of his Beit Din. Author of numerous Scriptural commentaries, which reveal influence of Rabbi Shlomo Al-kabets.
Rabbi Tovia HaLevi
(1536-1606)
Well-known scholar and author.

Rabbi Yisrael Najara
(1530-1600)
Kabbalist, poet, and musician. Author of the Shabbat hymn "Koh Ribon Olam" and many others.

Rabbi Elazar Azkiri
(1531-1600)
Kabbalist and homilist. Student of Rabbis Yitzchak Luria and Yosef Sagis. Author of many works, including the popular hymn "Yedid Nefesh" and Chareidim, a book liking the commandments to the parts of the body involved in their fulfillment.

Rabbi Moshe Galante
(1540-1614)
Chief Rabbi of Zefat after Rabbi Moshe of Trani.

Rabbi Shmuel Uceda
(1538-1602)
Student of Rabbis Yitschak Luria, Chaim Vital, and Elisha Gallico. Author of Midrash Shmuel, an important commentary on Pirkei Avot ("Wisdom of the Fathers").

 

[muman613]

Rabbi Nachman, of Breslov, who was the Rabbi who started the Breslov sect said the following concerning Israel:

http://www.breslev-midot.com/eng/about_berslev_moharan.asp

His Life's Dream - The Land of Israel

"One who wants to be a real Jew and go up step by step cannot do so unless he has the holiness of Eretz Yisrael, because all the rises in holiness all only through Eretz Yisrael. Likewise, all the prayers that rise up are only through Eretz Yisrael." (Kitzur Likutey Moharan 20:8

In the spring of 5558 (1798 C.E.) Rebbe Nachman decided to travel to Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel), in accordance with his own words, to which he further added in Sefer Ha'midot: "As a result of the yearning a person has for coming to Eretz Yisrael, he is granted great livelihood" and "through having a new idea in Torah, a person draws upon himself the holiness of Eretz Yisrael". Furthermore, in Likutey Tenina 40 it says: "The main greatness of the holiness of Eretz Yisrael is only because of the watch of Hashem, and Hashem watches Eretz Yisrael always, like it says: 'the eyes of Hashem, your G-d, are always on it, from the beginning of the year to the year's end.'" (Devarim 11:12)

On the eve of Pesach (Passover) 5558 , when he was 26, he emerged from the Mikveh and said to the person who accompanied him "this year I will surely be in the Holy Land." When this news reached his wife, the Rebbetzin, she sent her firstborn daughter to ask Rebbe Nachman who will provide for them financially. He answered her: "you will marry your betrothed (she was already engaged), your next sister will be taken as a servant, your youngest sister will be pitied and also taken as a servant, and your mother will cook in others homes. Additionally, everything in the home will be sold."

In those days, it was known that those who wanted to get to Eretz Yisrael had to be prepared to even go by foot, just as Hashem had said to Avraham Avinu: "Go for yourself from your land, and from your birthplace, and from the home of your father unto the land which I show you" (Bereshit 12:1). From the words "go for you" we learn that we need to literally go on foot in order to merit coming to Eretz Yisrael.

[muman613]

His responses are clear and (IMO) very true and correct.
   What does being "antagonistic" or not have to do with the truth? Your telling me you wish someone to lie to you as long as they are being "nice" or not antagonistic as yopu put it. Maybe you mean "confrontational" as a better word. But who cares? You are on JTF aren't you? you do agree with Rav Kahane don't you? Don't you know that he was very confrontational and antagonistic to the Hellinists and the deformers who are and were trying to destroy the authentic Judaism.
 Just because something offends you doesn't make it not the truth. In fact maybe the opposite. Maybe his words are getting to you and the acceptance of the truth is sometimes hard (i'm not singling you out, just saying that that happens in life and the psychology of people).

I would not even compare this guy to Rabbi Kahane. Rabbi Kahane would never say these things. I have watched virtually every video available of Rabbi Kahanes speeches and read several of his works and he has never made such accusations and slanders against the Chassidic. I also believe I have heard that Rabbi Kahane believed in the Zohar.


No Tag, Slander against Jews is forbidden. And claiming that those sects of Judaism which accept Kabbalah are not zionistic is slander.

[Israel Chai]

I would not even compare this guy to Rabbi Kahane. Rabbi Kahane would never say these things. I have watched virtually every video available of Rabbi Kahanes speeches and read several of his works and he has never made such accusations and slanders against the Chassidic. I also believe I have heard that Rabbi Kahane believed in the Zohar.


No Tag, Slander against Jews is forbidden. And claiming that those sects of Judaism which accept Kabbalah are not zionistic is slander.

Yeah I read the Zohar. I may believe in conservative elitism on the side, but I'm not not diametrically opposed to Torah on any level.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Muman your emotions are controlling your mind.
 1- Rav Kahane said he is not a man of Kabbalah. He simply did not deal with this issue and it would have been something in his way and off topic from what he was trying to accomplish. He simply ignored it and only on rare occasion quoted from the Zohar.
 2- Where is the slander?
 3- "more Chassids who are pro Israel than I find non-Chassidic."
 I don't believe their was mention of Chassidim at all until you wrote this here.
 
 The criticism and point (of which you quoted) was that the ideas that were and are present amoung the Torah world, particullarly amoung the Kabbalistically inclined is that the redemption will come and will have things like Temple falling from the sky (by some literally believed) Jews would be magically brought back to Israel etc. What he pointed out (in that quote you brought) is that we need to loko at the world in REAL terms. Having a real army and people living and working through the real world to bring upon the era of redemption.
 Also this has been partly why many Jews left the religion or what they percieved to be the religion. It is because what was presented as Judaism was a mere fantasy and not like the origional Jewish idea. Soo many of these Jews who were part of the Zionist movement disassociated with Judaism partly because of what they have seen in the religious world at that time.