Author Topic: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad  (Read 74188 times)

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Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Rabbi Asher Meza exposing Chabad
« Reply #125 on: July 02, 2012, 03:46:29 PM »
at the Lubavitcher Rebbe's funeral there were shouts of "GET UP! GET UP!", as the coffin was being lowered into the grave. And there were those who were DANCING and SINGING during the funeral about Moshiach's arrival. So even though he had a funeral, it made no difference to these people.

And please note: They are not considering the SOUL of the Rebbe alive, which is normal procedure for souls and nothing unusual. They are considering the Rebbe as ALIVE. As in you and me alive.

The belief that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is alive is not merely a legitimate mistake but an illegitimate unjustifiable baseless concoction out of thin air. Mistaken means the methodology that was used to arrive at the conclusions was legitimate but an error was committed in logic or understanding. Here, they took zero reasoning whatsoever, zero Torah sources, and zero logic and concocted out of thin air the belief that the Rebbe is still alive.

The same people who used to say that the Rebbe is Moshiach because Moshiach has to be a "real living person" and that "every generation has a Moshiach" now find themselves flip flopping and saying whatever is necessary in order to be able to defend their desire, that their Rebbe be King Moshiach no matter what.

Any 14 year old is capable of understanding that Yaakov Avinu Lo Mes has nothing to do with the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and that throughout history, with NO EXCEPTION AT ALL EVEN WITHIN LUBAVITCH, we have said "dead", "yohrtzeit", "petirah", "zatzal", on deceased Tzadikim, not shlita.  This is plain falsehood on Chabad's part.

Those who say the dead Rebbe is a live Moshiach shlita are going off the Derech (or the deep end) just like any other heretical groups. Once you distort the Torah's true beliefs, no matter how few or many of them you distort, you are off the derech.  This Yechi Rebbe Shlita thing is just plain nutso.

G-d didn't say the rebbe is alive, there is no Sefer that says the Rebbe is alive, and - IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CHASSIDUS. It is just the creation of some people in Lubavitch that are saying the Rebbe is alive. They made up their own belief.

The Yismach Moshe writes in his commentary on tehillim that if you point out a specific person as being Moshiach you are violating the oath that G-d made the Jews swear in Gemora kesuvos 111a not to "push" the Geulah in before its time [rather, we must wait for the proper time], the punishment for which, says the Gemora is that Hashem will allow the Jews to be hunted down and killed as if they were animals in the field!

The rebbe does NOT fulfill the Messianic qualities listed by the rambam, and all the good he did is very wonderful, but that has nothing to do with being Moshiach. And it has certainly has nothing to do with being alive.

Never in history has anyone had their own Chassidim dance and sing at their funeral. Or scream "Get up! " as the coffin was being lowered into the ground. Such obscene bahavior shows how off the deep end these people have gone. These "learned rabbis" once told us when the Rebbe was sick that he will certainly recover.

For sure, they said, and they had 100 "proofs" from the Torah. They were wrong then, and their "proofs" that the rebbe is alive are equally valid as those that they had that said the Rebbe will walk out of the hospital back into 770.

Eh good points I think... those who beleive he is the Moshiah are wrong. But many in Chabad do not, and their organization still does plenty for Judaism. I'm still 50-50 on if its better to minister to seculars to keep the mitzvot, or minister to Lubavitch on how their rabbi was not the Moshiah.
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Offline muman613

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #126 on: July 02, 2012, 04:22:43 PM »
Nobody disagrees that believing a dead man to be moshiach is wrong. I clearly state this in all my postings that I do not believe Rebbe was Moshiach or that he will be Moshiach (any more than my Father will be Moshiach). I just got off the phone with another of my Rabbis who was the Rabbi who initially reached out to me when I made Teshuva and brought me to more Orthodox Jewish observance. He would be considered Modern Orthodox by most people. I asked him where he stood on this issue and he said he was concerned about these beliefs. He said that he has had experience with some Chabad who do believe these beliefs. He said that they are wrong to believe this. But in the end he said that the Chabad organization does not teach this, and most of the new Rabbis don't have this belief, and overall Chabad does a lot of good.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline jewishwarrior

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Re: Rabbi Asher Meza exposing Chabad
« Reply #127 on: July 02, 2012, 04:24:07 PM »
Eh good points I think... those who beleive he is the Moshiah are wrong. But many in Chabad do not, and their organization still does plenty for Judaism. I'm still 50-50 on if its better to minister to seculars to keep the mitzvot, or minister to Lubavitch on how their rabbi was not the Moshiah.

First of all, ALL lubavitchers believe their dead Rebbe is Moshiach, as Rabbi Berel Wein said. 

Rav Shach zatzal wrote in a letter about Lubavitch that once upon a time, Lubavitch was following the Tanya and their Rebbes, and they were a legitimate Chassidic group. But today the Meshichist stuff and some other stuff that is happening is unacceptable, and it is a lie to say that any of that has to do with Chassidus, even Lubavitch Chassidus.

When a certain magazine in New York printed this letter of Rav Shach, certain Lubavitcher merchants in Crown Heights called and threatened to boycott the magazine.

When the merchants were asked about the fact that the magazine has written about the controversy in Lubavitch in the past, in much harsher ways, yet nobody had a problem with that, they answered that they don't care if they write against Lubavitch, because they can always dismiss such things to their children by saying they are "misnagdim".

But to let their children see that Rav Shach has nothing against Chasidim, that he is not a misnagid, and that his gripe is only with today's Chabad and not even with previous Lubavitcher Chassidus, that they cannot allow their children to read.

Offline jewishwarrior

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #128 on: July 02, 2012, 04:29:14 PM »
Nobody disagrees that believing a dead man to be moshiach is wrong. I clearly state this in all my postings that I do not believe Rebbe was Moshiach or that he will be Moshiach (any more than my Father will be Moshiach). I just got off the phone with another of my Rabbis who was the Rabbi who initially reached out to me when I made Teshuva and brought me to more Orthodox Jewish observance. He would be considered Modern Orthodox by most people. I asked him where he stood on this issue and he said he was concerned about these beliefs. He said that he has had experience with some Chabad who do believe these beliefs. He said that they are wrong to believe this. But in the end he said that the Chabad organization does not teach this, and most of the new Rabbis don't have this belief, and overall Chabad does a lot of good.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe did not meet the criteria of "chezkas Moshiach" any more than anyone else. One of the criteria - the most measurable one - is that he will "force (kofin) all Jews to do teshuva", and that has not happened in our times, unfortunately. With an over 60% intermarriage rate in the Lubavitcher Rebbe's own home country, that did not happen.

Furthermore, teshuva is not merely limited to the non-religious. In fact, the halacha is that religious people are MORE obligated to do teshuva than non-religious, since the non-religious are (perhaps) tinokos shenishbu and therefore are not really guilty of sins. The religious, on the other hand, are responsible for their sins and therefore responsible to do teshuva for them more. And there has been very little influence of Lubavitch in making Yeshiva people or religious Jews do teshuva.

Their focus has been on the non-religious. Of course, it is difficult to focus on all Jews, religious and non-religious, but that's what is needed to be B'chezkas Moshiach, among other things.

There is no proof anywhere to the silly idea that everyone can just take their Rebbe and decide he is the King Moshiach, the redeemer. That hasn't happened, ever. On the contrary, such behavior is what the Yismach Moshe cites as being a terrible sin, and ensures that, as long as they do it, Moshiach will not come.




Offline muman613

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #129 on: July 02, 2012, 04:38:03 PM »
The Lubavitcher Rebbe did not meet the criteria of "chezkas Moshiach" any more than anyone else. One of the criteria - the most measurable one - is that he will "force (kofin) all Jews to do teshuva", and that has not happened in our times, unfortunately. With an over 60% intermarriage rate in the Lubavitcher Rebbe's own home country, that did not happen.

Furthermore, teshuva is not merely limited to the non-religious. In fact, the halacha is that religious people are MORE obligated to do teshuva than non-religious, since the non-religious are (perhaps) tinokos shenishbu and therefore are not really guilty of sins. The religious, on the other hand, are responsible for their sins and therefore responsible to do teshuva for them more. And there has been very little influence of Lubavitch in making Yeshiva people or religious Jews do teshuva.

Their focus has been on the non-religious. Of course, it is difficult to focus on all Jews, religious and non-religious, but that's what is needed to be B'chezkas Moshiach, among other things.

There is no proof anywhere to the silly idea that everyone can just take their Rebbe and decide he is the King Moshiach, the redeemer. That hasn't happened, ever. On the contrary, such behavior is what the Yismach Moshe cites as being a terrible sin, and ensures that, as long as they do it, Moshiach will not come.

Chabad is attempting to bring Moshiach by getting all Jews to increase Mitzvah observance. You are familiar with the Gemara on Talmud Yerushalmi, Ta'anit which says that if all of Israel would just keep one Shabbat then Moshiach will come... This is one reason why Chabad gives Shabbat Candles to Jewish women and encourages them to light on Erev Shabbat.

http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/101681/jewish/Hastening-Mashiach.htm#footnote5a101681

Quote
A. Special Mitzvot

Teshuvah: First and foremost among these mitzvot is the principle of teshuvah. “When you return unto G-d, your G-d, and will listen to His voice… G-d, your G-d, will return your captivity and have compassion upon you, and He will restore and gather you from all the nations to which G-d, your G-d, has dispersed you…” (Deuteronomy 30:2ff.) Teshuvah will bring about an immediate redemption, “Today, if you will listen to His voice.” (Psalms 95:7)1

“Watchman (i.e., G-d), what will be of the night (i.e., the galut)? Said the Watchman: ‘Morning (i.e., the redemption) has come, and also night (i.e., retribution for the heathens and oppressors of Israel); if you will request, request. Return and come!” (Isaiah 21:11-12) G-d says that He is ready, indeed anxious, to make the ‘morning’ shine for us. Upon Israel’s question ‘when?,’ the Divine response is: “Whenever you want, He wants! If you want to make your request to hasten the end, request!” What then is deterring the redemption? The lack of teshuvah; thus “Return and come!”2

Teshuvah, the comprehensive principle of submission to G-d and His will, thus is the most obvious means to bring about the immediate coming of Mashiach.3 It does not require any extraordinary action or undertaking: the simple though sincere thought of regretting misdeeds with determination to better our ways is already complete teshuvah.4

Shabbat: If Israel will keep just one Shabbat properly, Mashiach will come immediately.5

Torah-study: “Torah-study is equivalent to all [the mitzvot].” (Pe’ah 1:1) By virtue of Torah they will return to the Holy Land and be gathered in from the exile.6 Israel shall be redeemed by virtue of ten people sitting one with the other, each of them studying with the other.7

Especially significant in this context is the study of pnimiyut Hatorah, the mystical dimension of the Torah: “In the merit thereof ‘You shall proclaim liberty throughout the land’ (Leviticus 25:10).”8

Tzedakah, too, is equivalent to all the mitzvot.9 Our compassion for the needy and downcast evokes a reciprocal compassion from Heaven, thus hastening the day of the scion of David (Mashiach) and the days of our redemption.10 “Zion shall be redeemed by justice and her repatriates by tzedakah.” (Isaiah 1:27) “Keep justice and do tzedakah, for My salvation is near to come and My tzedakah to be revealed.” (Isaiah 56:1)11

Other mitzvot charged with special efficacy to bring about the redemption are procreation (Genesis 1:28),12 the four species of Sukot (Leviticus 23:40),13 and the sending away of the mother-bird (Deuteronomy 22:6-7).14

Also Talmud Shabbos 118b says:

If the Jewish People would only keep two Shabbosos, then they would be redeemed immediately! (Shabbos 118b)
http://torah.org/learning/perceptions/5758/pekudei.html


I also don't quite understand why Chabad has to do anything aside from being there for other Orthodox Jews. Certainly I know for a fact that Chabad is open to any religious Jew who wants to study and learn with Chabad. I know Jews of all stripes who go to Chabad and they all benefit from Chabads programs.

We are all judged by our actions, whether they increased knowledge of Hashem and his laws or whether they decreased and contradicted Hashems will. If a Jew is meritorious from Torah and Mitzvot he is on the correct path and he needs to continue growing. I don't know exactly what should be done aside from keeping the awareness of the imminent coming of Moshiach alive. And this is something which Chabad does...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline jewishwarrior

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #130 on: July 02, 2012, 04:45:25 PM »
Chabad is attempting to bring Moshiach by getting all Jews to increase Mitzvah observance. You are familiar with the Gemara on Talmud Yerushalmi, Ta'anit which says that if all of Israel would just keep one Shabbat then Moshiach will come... This is one reason why Chabad gives Shabbat Candles to Jewish women and encourages them to light on Erev Shabbat.

http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/101681/jewish/Hastening-Mashiach.htm#footnote5a101681

Also Talmud Shabbos 118b says:

If the Jewish People would only keep two Shabbosos, then they would be redeemed immediately! (Shabbos 118b)

I also don't quite understand why Chabad has to do anything aside from being there for other Orthodox Jews. Certainly I know for a fact that Chabad is open to any religious Jew who wants to study and learn with Chabad. I know Jews of all stripes who go to Chabad and they all benefit from Chabads programs.

We are all judged by our actions, whether they increased knowledge of Hashem and his laws or whether they decreased and contradicted Hashems will. If a Jew is meritorious from Torah and Mitzvot he is on the correct path and he needs to continue growing. I don't know exactly what should be done aside from keeping the awareness of the imminent coming of Moshiach alive. And this is something which Chabad does...

The dancing at the funeral of the Lubavitcher Rebbe took place right outside 770 at the beginning of the funeral. Not nearly everyone, but there were those who did.

The screaming "Get up! get up!" took place as they were lowering the casket into the ground - again, just some people - and the person screaming the loudest is a well-known Meshichist who, not long prior to the funeral, announced in a public forum in Brooklyn that the Rebbe would never die, don't worry. When someone in the audience asked him well what are you going to do if he never recovers, he reiterated and said that's not a consideration since it can't happen.



Offline muman613

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #131 on: July 02, 2012, 04:47:11 PM »
Unrelated to the topic, but here is the excerpt from Talmud Shabbat 118b:

http://halakhah.com/shabbath/shabbath_118.html#PARTb
Quote

Rab Judah said in Rab's name: He who delights in the Sabbath is granted his heart's desires, for it is said, Delight thyself also in the Lord; And he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.6  Now, I do not know what this 'delight' refers to; but when it is said, and thou shalt call the Sabbath a delight,7  you must say that it refers to the delight of the Sabbath.8

Wherewith does one show his delight therein? — Rab Judah son of R. Samuel b. Shilath said in Rab's name: With a dish of beets, large fish, and heads of garlic. R. Hiyya b. Ashi said in Rab's name: Even a trifle, if it is prepared in honor of the Sabbath, is delight. What is it [the trifle]? — Said R. Papa: A pie of fish-hash.

R. Hiyya b. Abba said in R. Johanan's name: He who observes the Sabbath according to its laws, even if he practises idolatry like the generation of Enosh,9  is forgiven, for it is said, Blessed is Enosh10  that doeth this … [that keepeth the Sabbath mehallelo from profaning it]:11  read not mehallelo but mahul lo [he is forgiven].

Rab Judah said in Rab's name: Had Israel kept the first Sabbath, no nation or tongue would have enjoyed dominion over them, for it is said, And it came to pass on the seventh day, that there went out some of the people for to gather;12  which is followed by, Then came Amalek.13  R. Johanan said in the name of R. Simeon b. Yohai: If Israel were to keep two Sabbaths according to the laws thereof, they would be redeemed immediately, for it is said, Thus saith the Lord of the eunuch that keep my Sabbaths,14  which is followed by, even them will I bring to my holy mountain, etc.15

R. Jose said: May my portion be of those who eat three meals on the Sabbath. R. Jose [also] said: May my portion be of those who recite the entire Hallel16  every day. But that is not so, for a Master said: He who reads Hallel every day blasphemes and reproaches [the Divine Name]?17  — We refer to the 'Verses of Song'.18

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #132 on: July 02, 2012, 04:48:33 PM »
The dancing at the funeral of the Lubavitcher Rebbe took place right outside 770 at the beginning of the funeral. Not nearly everyone, but there were those who did.

The screaming "Get up! get up!" took place as they were lowering the casket into the ground - again, just some people - and the person screaming the loudest is a well-known Meshichist who, not long prior to the funeral, announced in a public forum in Brooklyn that the Rebbe would never die, don't worry. When someone in the audience asked him well what are you going to do if he never recovers, he reiterated and said that's not a consideration since it can't happen.

I agree with you that it was wrong to do this... Pretty much everyone here agrees that the Rebbe was not Moshiach. The argument is whether the Chabad organization is teaching avodah zarah or not, at least that is why I am involved in this discussion.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline jewishwarrior

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #133 on: July 02, 2012, 04:56:39 PM »
Chabad is attempting to bring Moshiach by getting all Jews to increase Mitzvah observance. You are familiar with the Gemara on Talmud Yerushalmi, Ta'anit which says that if all of Israel would just keep one Shabbat then Moshiach will come... This is one reason why Chabad gives Shabbat Candles to Jewish women and encourages them to light on Erev Shabbat.

http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/101681/jewish/Hastening-Mashiach.htm#footnote5a101681

Also Talmud Shabbos 118b says:

If the Jewish People would only keep two Shabbosos, then they would be redeemed immediately! (Shabbos 118b)
http://torah.org/learning/perceptions/5758/pekudei.html


I also don't quite understand why Chabad has to do anything aside from being there for other Orthodox Jews. Certainly I know for a fact that Chabad is open to any religious Jew who wants to study and learn with Chabad. I know Jews of all stripes who go to Chabad and they all benefit from Chabads programs.

We are all judged by our actions, whether they increased knowledge of Hashem and his laws or whether they decreased and contradicted Hashems will. If a Jew is meritorious from Torah and Mitzvot he is on the correct path and he needs to continue growing. I don't know exactly what should be done aside from keeping the awareness of the imminent coming of Moshiach alive. And this is something which Chabad does...

The Meshichists are off the derech. They have violated the Torah and committed a terrible sin, as per the Yismach Moshe.   The punishment, the Gemora (Kesivos 112a) says, for that particular sin is that Jews are killed by the Goyim, G-d forbid.  And, as the Yismach Moshe points out, that Moshiach will not come until it stops.

To say that someone is the King Moshiach, the redeemer, that is prohibited. And nobody in history ever did that before, except by Shabse Tzvi, Bar Kochba, and other disastrous episodes.

There are numerous sins involved here, including distorting the Torah and, as is evident from the Yismach Moshe, trying to bring the Geulah before the proper time. The punishment for which, the Gemora says, is that Jews are hunted down like animals and killed, G-d forbid, not to mention the prevention of the coming of Moshiach, G-d forbid.






Offline muman613

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #134 on: July 02, 2012, 05:00:15 PM »
The Meshichists are off the derech. They have violated the Torah and committed a terrible sin, as per the Yismach Moshe.   The punishment, the Gemora (Kesivos 112a) says, for that particular sin is that Jews are killed by the Goyim, G-d forbid.  And, as the Yismach Moshe points out, that Moshiach will not come until it stops.

To say that someone is the King Moshiach, the redeemer, that is prohibited. And nobody in history ever did that before, except by Shabse Tzvi, Bar Kochba, and other disastrous episodes.

There are numerous sins involved here, including distorting the Torah and, as is evident from the Yismach Moshe, trying to bring the Geulah before the proper time. The punishment for which, the Gemora says, is that Jews are hunted down like animals and killed, G-d forbid, not to mention the prevention of the coming of Moshiach, G-d forbid.

Now wait a minute... You are attempting to use the three pledges against Chabad... This is the same argument used by the anti-Zionists against the zionist enterprise.

Am I reading you correctly? You are an anti-zionist?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #135 on: July 02, 2012, 05:05:35 PM »
http://dafyomi.co.il/kesuvos/halachah/ks-hl-111.htm


http://www.kby.org/english/torat-yavneh/view.asp?id=4001
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Moreover, even if the Ramban is correct, there are the "three oaths" mentioned in Ketuvot 111a, that the Jewish People will not return to Israel with force. This Gemara is the basis of the Satmar Rebbe, as explained at length in his work, "Vayo'el Moshe." (The name is an allusion to the pasuk in Shemot 2:21 and Rashi there, that Moshe swore to Yitro that he would not leave him without permission.) Thus, we cannot take land without permission. Furthermore, even according to Ramban the current political circumstances are not considered control anyway – to do as you wish, which we cannot do. For example, there is mitzvah to destroy Avoda Zara; can we destroy the churches?! We are not allowed to leave non-Jews in Israel; can we transfer them, or even travel in security?! Thus, we are not fulfilling the mitzvah properly anyway, and thus we should consider pikuach nefesh – if indeed it will lead to peace.

This ruling led to a wave of Rabbinic literature. Rav Shaul Yisraeli responded that he respects Rav Ovadia Yosef greatly, but the Ramban writes explicitly that the mitzvah applies even in the time of galut, even though was aware of the "three oaths." It is true that the Avnei Nezer writes that due to the "three oaths" there cannot be a mitzvah to settle Israel even on the individual, since if it were incumbant on each individual – they form the group! This is not clear, though, since Rashi explains the oath precludes returning with force in battle. But if an individual goes – this is not through force!
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We should also take note of the phrase, "the fear of the oaths." What does he mean by fear? Is it permissible or not? He should have said that the prohibition is over. Rav Zvi Yehuda explained that there is no real prohibition, since an oath cannot be superimposed upon a prior oath, and since we are under oath to settle Israel – we cannot be put under oath not to! If, according to the Ramban, there is a mitzvah for generations – there cannot be a prohibition!

The Rambam explains: "I have put you under oath." The Jews will want to come to Israel before the time on account of the troubles of galut. G-d warns them against this as if they were put under oath.

Thus, the oaths are no longer relevant. Even if later the nations were to retract their consent, once they granted permission – it is too late for them to retract. Thus, the argument of the three oaths is no longer valid.

In addition, there is counter–oath to the nations of the world not to overly subjugate and persecute Israel. After the Holocaust, when the nations certainly violated their oath, we also are not bound. In any case, though, the establishment of the State was not by rebellion.



I would say that many today think that the oaths are no longer binding on the Jewish people. The nations have broken their part of the pledge concerning not subjugating the Jewish people too harshly..
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline jewishwarrior

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #136 on: July 02, 2012, 05:26:06 PM »
http://dafyomi.co.il/kesuvos/halachah/ks-hl-111.htm


http://www.kby.org/english/torat-yavneh/view.asp?id=4001
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Moreover, even if the Ramban is correct, there are the "three oaths" mentioned in Ketuvot 111a, that the Jewish People will not return to Israel with force. This Gemara is the basis of the Satmar Rebbe, as explained at length in his work, "Vayo'el Moshe." (The name is an allusion to the pasuk in Shemot 2:21 and Rashi there, that Moshe swore to Yitro that he would not leave him without permission.) Thus, we cannot take land without permission. Furthermore, even according to Ramban the current political circumstances are not considered control anyway – to do as you wish, which we cannot do. For example, there is mitzvah to destroy Avoda Zara; can we destroy the churches?! We are not allowed to leave non-Jews in Israel; can we transfer them, or even travel in security?! Thus, we are not fulfilling the mitzvah properly anyway, and thus we should consider pikuach nefesh – if indeed it will lead to peace.

This ruling led to a wave of Rabbinic literature. Rav Shaul Yisraeli responded that he respects Rav Ovadia Yosef greatly, but the Ramban writes explicitly that the mitzvah applies even in the time of galut, even though was aware of the "three oaths." It is true that the Avnei Nezer writes that due to the "three oaths" there cannot be a mitzvah to settle Israel even on the individual, since if it were incumbant on each individual – they form the group! This is not clear, though, since Rashi explains the oath precludes returning with force in battle. But if an individual goes – this is not through force!
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We should also take note of the phrase, "the fear of the oaths." What does he mean by fear? Is it permissible or not? He should have said that the prohibition is over. Rav Zvi Yehuda explained that there is no real prohibition, since an oath cannot be superimposed upon a prior oath, and since we are under oath to settle Israel – we cannot be put under oath not to! If, according to the Ramban, there is a mitzvah for generations – there cannot be a prohibition!

The Rambam explains: "I have put you under oath." The Jews will want to come to Israel before the time on account of the troubles of galut. G-d warns them against this as if they were put under oath.

Thus, the oaths are no longer relevant. Even if later the nations were to retract their consent, once they granted permission – it is too late for them to retract. Thus, the argument of the three oaths is no longer valid.

In addition, there is counter–oath to the nations of the world not to overly subjugate and persecute Israel. After the Holocaust, when the nations certainly violated their oath, we also are not bound. In any case, though, the establishment of the State was not by rebellion.



I would say that many today think that the oaths are no longer binding on the Jewish people. The nations have broken their part of the pledge concerning not subjugating the Jewish people too harshly..

that is a complete lie.  nowhere does it say that just because the nations have violated their oath, that the jews may violate theirs.  this is a complete fabrication by the zionists.

Offline Chaim Ben Pesach

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #137 on: July 02, 2012, 05:53:04 PM »
that is a complete lie.  nowhere does it say that just because the nations have violated their oath, that the jews may violate theirs.  this is a complete fabrication by the zionists.

בס''ד

By the Zionists? Yismach Moshe? Wow, we have a lot of nutjobs joining this forum lately.

You are a "jewishwarrior"? Hahahaha. You anti-Zionist Satmar cowards couldn't fight your way out of a paper bag.

During the holocaust, the Satmar "rebbe" saved his own tuchus by making a deal with Rudolph Kastner, the head of the Hungarian Judenrat. The "rebbe" got on the notorious Judenrat train out of Hungary together with his family leaving behind hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews who were then murdered by the Germans yimach shmam. The "rebbe" never even warned his own followers to leave Hungary or to resist the Nazis to save their lives. Most of those who trusted the "rebbe" ended up in the Nazi gas chambers and ovens.

Offline jewishwarrior

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #138 on: July 02, 2012, 05:59:25 PM »
בס''ד

By the Zionists? Yismach Moshe? Wow, we have a lot of nutjobs joining this forum lately.

You are a "jewishwarrior"? Hahahaha. You anti-Zionist Satmar cowards couldn't fight your way out of a paper bag.

During the holocaust, the Satmar "rebbe" saved his own tuchus by making a deal with Rudolph Kastner, the head of the Hungarian Judenrat. The "rebbe" got on the notorious Judenrat train out of Hungary together with his family leaving behind hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews who were then murdered by the Germans yimach shmam. The "rebbe" never even warned his own followers to leave Hungary or to resist the Nazis to save their lives. Most of those who trusted the "rebbe" ended up in the Nazi gas chambers and ovens.

Read "Perfidy" by Ben Hecht.  Kasztner, a powerful Zionist, who the Zionists unsuccessfully tried to defend in the State of Israel, was responsible for the murder of 1 million Hungarian Jews and the release of a known German SS Jew-butcherer.

Offline Chaim Ben Pesach

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #139 on: July 02, 2012, 06:09:31 PM »
Read "Perfidy" by Ben Hecht.  Kasztner, a powerful Zionist, who the Zionists unsuccessfully tried to defend in the State of Israel, was responsible for the murder of 1 million Hungarian Jews and the release of a known German SS Jew-butcherer.

בס''ד

Your ignorance is astounding.

Ben Hecht was himself a rightwing Zionist like we are. Hecht was fighting the same traitor establishment that we Kahanists have always fought. The Torah term for the traitor establishment is the "Erev Rav" ערב רב.

The Satmar "rebbe" worked together with Kastner to save his own tuchus and to get on the Judenrat train out of Hungary leaving behind his own followers. So the Satmar "rebbe" is also responsible for the murder of Hungarian Jewry השם יקום דמם.

Offline jewishwarrior

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #140 on: July 02, 2012, 06:43:10 PM »
בס''ד


The Satmar "rebbe" worked together with Kastner to save his own tuchus and to get on the Judenrat train out of Hungary leaving behind his own followers. So the Satmar "rebbe" is also responsible for the murder of Hungarian Jewry השם יקום דמם.

Complete and utter lie.  No Torah-leader, including the Satmar Rebbe zatzal, ever cooperated with the Nazis in the destruction machinery.  At the Kastner trial, on the other hand, it was revealed that the Zionist leaders in Hungary, in cooperation with the world Zionist leaders, had betrayed the Jewish masses and had prevented them from taking steps to save themselves by flight over the nearby border.  At the same trial it was also revealed that Joel Brand, the emissary who went to meet the Zionist leaders, in Turkey and Palestine, to plead for a relatively small ransom fund to save many Jews from annihilation, was deceived by the chief Zionist leaders and was maneuvered by their trickery into a British prison, where he languished in despair until all those that had sent him were wiped out.   It was because European Jews put their trust in atheistic Zionist leaders that these leaders everywhere became the lackeys of the Nazis in all the Ghettos.  They were the machinery which served efficiently in the task of keeping the Jews docile and of persuading and coercing them to be sent off to their deaths. 

Offline muman613

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #141 on: July 02, 2012, 06:47:54 PM »
Complete and utter lie.  No Torah-leader, including the Satmar Rebbe zatzal, ever cooperated with the Nazis in the destruction machinery.  At the Kastner trial, on the other hand, it was revealed that the Zionist leaders in Hungary, in cooperation with the world Zionist leaders, had betrayed the Jewish masses and had prevented them from taking steps to save themselves by flight over the nearby border.  At the same trial it was also revealed that Joel Brand, the emissary who went to meet the Zionist leaders, in Turkey and Palestine, to plead for a relatively small ransom fund to save many Jews from annihilation, was deceived by the chief Zionist leaders and was maneuvered by their trickery into a British prison, where he languished in despair until all those that had sent him were wiped out.   It was because European Jews put their trust in atheistic Zionist leaders that these leaders everywhere became the lackeys of the Nazis in all the Ghettos.  They were the machinery which served efficiently in the task of keeping the Jews docile and of persuading and coercing them to be sent off to their deaths.

The Satmar Rebbe is a traitor to his people. While I do know some Chassids who associate with Satmar the fact of the matter is that they turn their backs on their Jewish brothers and sisters and comfort the enemy.

I am sorry you find a need to defend them.

Here are some discussions of how the Three Oaths have been rescinded {according to many}.

http://www.divreinavon.com/pdf/TheThreeOathsOfJewishHistory.pdf
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #142 on: July 02, 2012, 06:50:13 PM »
See : http://www.kby.org/hebrew/torat-yavneh/view.asp?id=3970

The Gemara in Ketubot (111a) derives from the triple mention of the pasuk, "I have bound you in oath, O daughters of Jerusalem" (Shir Hashirim), that Hashem bound Am Yisrael and the nations of the world with three oaths. The first oath is, "shelo yaalu bachoma," that the Jews should not forcibly, "break through the wall," and enter Eretz Yisrael. The second is that the Jews should not rebel against the nations. The third is that the nations of the world should not oppress Yisrael too much over the course of the exile. According to R. Zera, there are three additional oaths which relate to the ultimate redemption. The Gemara concludes with the threat that if Israel violates these oaths, their flesh will be made free like wild animals in the field, i.e., Hashem would bring upon them great suffering and physical destruction.

The Satmar Rebbe, Rav Yoel Teitelbaum, claims in "Vayoel Moshe" that Hashem brought about the Holocaust because the Zionist movement caused the Jews to violate the "Three Oaths." Since the Jewish people forcefully went to resettle Eretz Yisrael, Hashem brought upon them massive destruction, as the Gemara warns in its conclusion. Rav Shlomo Aviner compiled thirteen answers to this claim, amongst them the following:

1) Rav Teitelbaum's claim rests on the fact that there was a "choma," that the nations of the world prohibited the Jews from settling in the land of Israel. The Avnei Nezer writes that this oath does not apply when the nations give Yisrael permission to return. Following the Balfour Declaration and the San Remo Conference, in which the nations of the world determined that the Jewish people have a right to settle the land of Israel, the oaths do not apply. The Midrash hints to this idea, that if Bnei Yisrael have permission to enter the land they do not violate the oaths.

2) Another answer is that once there is a sign from Hashem to return to the land, the oaths no longer apply. In addition to the permission given by the nations, the national reawakening and birth of modern Zionism can be viewed as a sign from Hashem that it is permissible to return to the land. The oaths were not an "issur" (absolute prohibition), but rather national tendencies that Hashem instilled within Klal Yisrael which would cause them to remain unmotivated to return to their land. Also, throughout most of the exile, it was very difficult physically for Jews to return to Eretz Yisrael. Once a wide scale movement with an objective to return to Eretz Yisrael began, and it was physically possible to begin Aliya to Eretz Yisrael, it became clear that the oath was no longer in effect.

3) The Gemara in Sanhedrin (98a) says that when Eretz Yisrael gives forth fruit abundantly, it is a sure sign that the redemption is coming. Eretz Yisrael, in the time of the Zionist movement, began blooming and giving forth fruits unlike any previous time since the destruction of the land. This sign of redemption showed that the oath was no longer in effect.

3) Rav Teichtal, in his work, "Em Habanim Smeicha," offers another explanation. Although the Jews were sworn not to enter Eretz Yisrael forcefully, the nations of the world were also sworn not to persecute the Jews too much. Over the course of the exile, the Jews were severely persecuted by the gentiles. Because the gentiles violated their oath, the Jews were no longer bound by their oath.

4) According to some opinions, the only way to violate the oath would be if people came to Eretz Yisrael in very large groups. Since the Jews entered the land slowly, and over the course of many years, they did not violate the oath.

5) The author of the "Hafla'ah" maintains that the oaths only apply to those who are in the exile of Bavel, and not in other lands.

6) R' Chaim Vital explains that the oath only applied for 1000 years, not longer.

7) The Gra writes that the oath applies only to building the Beit Hamikdash, not to entering Eretz Yisrael.

8) Elsewhere in the Gemara there are other, conflicting, sources. Furthermore, the Gemara regarding the "Three Oaths" is aggada, and we do not decide halacha based on aggada.

Based on all of these explanations, there is ample basis to say that the movement to return to Eretz Yisrael was a positive, not a negative, one. In fact, others maintain just the opposite, that the Holocaust was because Jews became entrenched in galut and did not return to Eretz Yisrael. Since we are not living in a generation of prophecy, it is very difficult for us to determine exactly why Hashem brings specific punishments to the world. However, the Gemara does teach us that when we are afflicted with punishment, we should look into our actions, and try to fix our bad deeds. By looking at the Akeida, we may gain some insight regarding the Holocaust.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Chaim Ben Pesach

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #143 on: July 02, 2012, 07:09:14 PM »
Complete and utter lie.  No Torah-leader, including the Satmar Rebbe zatzal, ever cooperated with the Nazis in the destruction machinery.  At the Kastner trial, on the other hand, it was revealed that the Zionist leaders in Hungary, in cooperation with the world Zionist leaders, had betrayed the Jewish masses and had prevented them from taking steps to save themselves by flight over the nearby border.  At the same trial it was also revealed that Joel Brand, the emissary who went to meet the Zionist leaders, in Turkey and Palestine, to plead for a relatively small ransom fund to save many Jews from annihilation, was deceived by the chief Zionist leaders and was maneuvered by their trickery into a British prison, where he languished in despair until all those that had sent him were wiped out.   It was because European Jews put their trust in atheistic Zionist leaders that these leaders everywhere became the lackeys of the Nazis in all the Ghettos.  They were the machinery which served efficiently in the task of keeping the Jews docile and of persuading and coercing them to be sent off to their deaths.

בס''ד

You mean the Satmar "rebbe" wasn't on the Kastner Judenrat train? You mean the Satmar "rebbe" warned his followers to leave Hungary the way he did? You are the one who is lying - to yourself.

Offline cjd

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #144 on: July 02, 2012, 07:49:11 PM »
Have mercy... Have we turned into a Chabad website? What ever happened to saving Israel and America?
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

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Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #145 on: July 02, 2012, 08:02:54 PM »
It was not only an attack on Chabad...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline jewishwarrior

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #146 on: July 02, 2012, 09:00:58 PM »
בס''ד

You mean the Satmar "rebbe" wasn't on the Kastner Judenrat train? You mean the Satmar "rebbe" warned his followers to leave Hungary the way he did? You are the one who is lying - to yourself.

You can't blame the Satmar Rebbe for taking the Kastner train to save his life.  If someone was in a fire about to be burned to death, G-d forbid, should that person refuse to accept the help of a Christian fireman because he believes in Yoshka?

Offline cjd

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #147 on: July 02, 2012, 09:04:44 PM »
You can't blame the Satmar Rebbe for taking the Kastner train to save his life.  If someone was in a fire about to be burned to death, G-d forbid, should that person refuse to accept the help of a Christian fireman because he believes in Yoshka?
A person in his shoes should have stuck with his people... Yes he should be blamed for leaving.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

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Offline jewishwarrior

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #148 on: July 02, 2012, 09:07:39 PM »
It was not only an attack on Chabad...

"Who fulfills Mitzvos and is an Apikores? Those who blame the Gedolei Yisroel for the holocaust, and also all those who celebrate Yom Haatzmaut" --- Chazon Ish

Offline jewishwarrior

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #149 on: July 02, 2012, 09:08:54 PM »
A person in his shoes should have stuck with his people... Yes he should be blamed for leaving.

Dead wrong.  The Chasam Sofer writes that if a Tzaddik finds himself and his flock in danger, he should escape and pray for his flock while he is out of the danger, in which case his efforts will be more effective min hashamayim than had he stayed with them.