Author Topic: Opinion on the "draft bill"  (Read 1794 times)

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Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Opinion on the "draft bill"
« on: July 08, 2012, 10:01:33 AM »
Haredim to or not in the army?
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Meerkat

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Re: Opinion on the "draft bill"
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2012, 02:10:16 PM »
I can understand not having the Arabs in the army, I mean, were not gonna let our fanatic enemies be in charge of our safety, when the Kahanists are in power that wont be a problem because they will all be out of the country. The Haredim have no excuse, they should defend their country like everybody else.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Opinion on the "draft bill"
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2012, 11:38:20 PM »
The left wingies want this because they are dodging the draft in increasing numbers and need a way to cover it up. Fighting for G-d's truth is equal to fighting for his land.

With a gun, lefties are a threat when it isn't war, but when it is, they better darn sure have one and be busy using it, because if they're sitting around trying to decry autrocities against an army that is attempting genocide, they're a problem beyond all mention. At least the religious Jews will be busy praying for Israel's success, which without Jews, why would G-d fight for random inhabitants of the land?

We have to be free to practice our faith; without it we aren't going to be protected by G-d because "study to show thyself worthy unto G-d" includes the Jewish people as a whole. If there is a reduction in religion, the left wingies will rejoice. Now that deform rabbis are funded by the state, do you think their religious followers are going to be exempt from the army? No because the left does not believe that following the Jewish religion does anything to save the land, or they do, and don't like the land.

The question is: do you think that the left thinks Israel needs more soldiers, or do you think they don't want people to be Haredim?
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Opinion on the "draft bill"
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2012, 12:01:23 PM »
Of course they should
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Opinion on the "draft bill"
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2012, 12:57:13 PM »

The question is: do you think that the left thinks Israel needs more soldiers, or do you think they don't want people to be Haredim?

 The left in of itself does not want people to be religious. Haredi or (perhaps especially) national-religious. The question is- is it good for the rest of the country or not? Some on the left do not even want Haredim in the army to begin with (since they can influence the other soldiers to become observant as well). And are using this to get votes since the average Israeli wants to share the burdens of the country.
  And i'm not pro-haredi either. 100% under normal circumstances, if and when the country and army is run properly to actually fight the enemies of Israel etc. most haredim would mandatorily be drafted.  Perhaps a few elite, extremely gifted individuals would be exempt (just as some important scientists for example) the rest would have to serve just like everyone else. The excuse of Torah is not valid especially for someone who learns part time and not fully dedicated.
 With that said we also need to look at and see if today's current army is worth joining or would they be more productive not to join and to be productive learning instead. By the way their are many secular draft dodgers as well. At least in the case of Haredim they are doing something productive, but still I find the Haredim culture to be negative and reactive and not proactive.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Opinion on the "draft bill"
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2012, 02:05:44 AM »
"By the way their are many secular draft dodgers as well." tag

yeah I know I said that.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Opinion on the "draft bill"
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2012, 08:30:11 PM »
"By the way their are many secular draft dodgers as well." tag

yeah I know I said that.
LKZ you act like your some hardcore orthodox Jew! YOU DON'T EVEN FOLLOW THE LAW!
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 11:34:10 PM by Ephraim »
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Opinion on the "draft bill"
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2012, 02:16:34 AM »
I have mixed feelings about this whole thing.   On one side, the haredi society (as currently formulated, with mass kollel occupation) is not economically sustainable and they are encountering serious financial difficulties and increased dependence and reliance on the israeli govt for support of that system.      It's a system that not only does not work economically, but it also has no roots in tradition as a mass societal occupation for all men, it produces negative social consequences whereby important Jewish values like Jewish labor, manliness, and fighting our enemies are stigmatized as unacceptable or subpar activity for a Jewish male, and those participating in the time honored Jewish traditions such as working for a living are denigrated and outcast by their society.    Truly wrong.      And all the arguments their side makes against army service are absurd and ridiculous. 

On the other hand, the Israeli govt, in imposing a new draft law and trying to force the haredim into the army surely has evil intentions and cannot possibly be working in the best interest of haredim, of the country, or of the Jewish people in general.    The evidence shows that the Israeli govt is working to destroy the Jewish people and Jewish values, so there is absolutely NO WAY I could ever side with them on this, despite the fact that changes do need to occur in haredi society for the betterment of our people.     Those changes have to happen organically and perhaps they will happen very gradually.  But I have no doubt they will happen, out of necessity.   
But what the govt wants to impose on them, immediately, is surely not conducive to positive changes, but rather civil strife and animosity.   And of course, what the govt really wants, is to break down the haredi society, an egg they have never been able to crack, to infiltrate and control it, just like they have brainwashed and misled the Dati Leumi like sheep to the slaughter.    They know they cannot break the haredi system as is, so they think the army is their "in" to get access to that camp.     As of now, haredim simply follow their gedolim and vote for whomever their rabbis tell them to.    Don't think that will change at all when you have haredi yossele's as army rabbis preaching mamlachti stupidity to haredi footsoldiers? 
I know the Israeli govt usually buys the haredi votes, but it's clear to me that the haredi parties are not always willing to play ball, and this annoys people like netanyahu who prefers dictatorship (part of why he brought in kadima).

So to all this I can only conclude, the world is a complicated place, and I side with no one except the Kahanists.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Opinion on the "draft bill"
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2012, 01:38:46 PM »
LKZ you act like your some hardcore orthodox Jew! YOU DON'T EVEN FOLLOW THE LAW!

Ok well I don't but I don't have the money to in Canada kosher salami (processed cold-cuts) are like 24.99 a pound, and it comes to like $30 for a chicken. In Israel I ate Kosher except for one time on accident, and followed the law, did tzfillen, shabbat, etc. My family did follow the law outside of Israel too, but they all have PHD's and can afford to drive their wives out to a river every time they want a new kid. One day, I will be, but until them, all I am is a person trying to get to Israel so I can help defend my family in Jerusalem. I can still agree with their point of view, even though it would be impossible for me to follow it here and ever get the money to go.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Opinion on the "draft bill"
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2012, 02:28:53 PM »
Chaim we would like your opinion on this.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Opinion on the "draft bill"
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2012, 03:56:27 PM »
Ok well I don't but I don't have the money to in Canada kosher salami (processed cold-cuts) are like 24.99 a pound, and it comes to like $30 for a chicken. In Israel I ate Kosher except for one time on accident, and followed the law, did tzfillen, shabbat, etc. My family did follow the law outside of Israel too, but they all have PHD's and can afford to drive their wives out to a river every time they want a new kid. One day, I will be, but until them, all I am is a person trying to get to Israel so I can help defend my family in Jerusalem. I can still agree with their point of view, even though it would be impossible for me to follow it here and ever get the money to go.

Do those mitzvot which you can. Just because you can't keep Kosher now is no reason not to don tefillin or daven daily or keep Shabbat. Take small steps and eventually you will find you are shomer shabbat.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Opinion on the "draft bill"
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2012, 12:42:35 AM »
Do those mitzvot which you can. Just because you can't keep Kosher now is no reason not to don tefillin or daven daily or keep Shabbat. Take small steps and eventually you will find you are shomer shabbat.

I'm trying bro. It is hard not really being in touch with the Jewish community here, but I'm meeting new people now who really do keep kosher and one guy showed me a place with $12 kosher chicken, so I'm trying, and its not like I don't want to, but I don't really have the tefillin, so I just read the prayers, and I have it in English besides the Hebrew, but its less cool so I want to learn Hebrew too and everything, I'm just taking my time a little, because already most people I know aren't Jewish nor can understand most of what I say or do, so if I get ostracized I'll go crazy because I'm very social, and can't really take being alone. Also, I still need women, and don't want to scare them off with everything, although in the end I'd only marry a Jewish girl, but until then, I like to be touched.

Small steps is what's up, I still know the law and exactly how bad I should feel for not following it, so its a start, and I'm getting there. In my head though, I know I'll really be shomer shabbat in Israel.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

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Re: Opinion on the "draft bill"
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2012, 03:21:51 AM »
.
.
.

Small steps is what's up, I still know the law and exactly how bad I should feel for not following it, so its a start, and I'm getting there. In my head though, I know I'll really be shomer shabbat in Israel.

Chazak brother, be strengthened.... I realize being a Baal Teshuva is not always the most socially acceptable, and it requires a bit of sacrifice, but in the end you will be a better mench, and a better Jew, by taking these steps.

Do not think about how bad you should feel for your transgressions. That is a fatalistic approach to Judaism. Indeed we are judged for all those things, but the power of Teshuva (Returning) and its merit is greater than the 'punishment' for the transgression. Being fully Shomer Shabbat when we come from homes where we didn't learn about the greatness of the day, and its spiritual potential, is very very difficult. I know because I made a 180 degree turn in my life in 2003, and changed myself in many ways.

Be strong...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Opinion on the "draft bill"
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2012, 03:58:05 AM »
Chazak brother, be strengthened.... I realize being a Baal Teshuva is not always the most socially acceptable, and it requires a bit of sacrifice, but in the end you will be a better mench, and a better Jew, by taking these steps.

Do not think about how bad you should feel for your transgressions. That is a fatalistic approach to Judaism. Indeed we are judged for all those things, but the power of Teshuva (Returning) and its merit is greater than the 'punishment' for the transgression. Being fully Shomer Shabbat when we come from homes where we didn't learn about the greatness of the day, and its spiritual potential, is very very difficult. I know because I made a 180 degree turn in my life in 2003, and changed myself in many ways.

Be strong...

Bless you for your kind words and wisdom. To be honest, I was raised in a communist cult that could only be called Christian because they talked about "Jesus" and made up some random [censored]. At 13, I had figured them all out, told them to go [censored] themselves, and called them a bunch of idiots and celebrate that decision, as a lot of terrible things happened in it, not to mention blind belief in stupidity and general stupidity. I like to say everything I've become I've fought for against everyone around me doing the contrary, but alas I can no longer. Maybe the Israel trip and meeting my family solidified it, but this forum is what really brought me into Judaism wholeheartedly, and you especially. I always knew I was Jewish and read/know most of "the Tanach", but all I've learned here I couldn't have done in years on my own.

I'm still working out the kicks, but everything about being Jewish makes my heart leap, and I'm working hard to be the man I know I want to be, that countless generations of my family would approve of.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline The One and Only Mo

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Re: Opinion on the "draft bill"
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2012, 08:47:38 PM »
Chilonim don't want to pay for Charedim to learn all day. I understand that. I guess Israel will be a secular state first and foremost.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Opinion on the "draft bill"
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2012, 08:57:18 PM »
Chilonim don't want to pay for Charedim to learn all day. I understand that. I guess Israel will be a secular state first and foremost.

 On the other hand, regular people also do not want to waste $ on all the wasteful crapp. for example the billions that went to waste to the kibbutzim. Or the other stupid programs in the billions (soo called "art" and "theater" and such usually leftist propaganda garbage).
  I personally would like it for the Torah to be free from the government and no strings attached (because then used as a bargaining chip against Judaism and evil actions by government, "do _________ or we cut Yeshiva funding" and the parties many times give in. BUT at least in this case the $ goes to poor families instead and its some millions spent as opposed to the other Billions wasted. 
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline The One and Only Mo

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Re: Opinion on the "draft bill"
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2012, 08:59:13 PM »
I know whatever happens will be in Hashem's hands. Personally, I want the learning to continue, but I'm a biased Orthodox Jew.

Offline muman613

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Re: Opinion on the "draft bill"
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2012, 09:05:54 PM »
I know whatever happens will be in Hashem's hands. Personally, I want the learning to continue, but I'm a biased Orthodox Jew.

Shalom Mo.... Long time no hear!

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline The One and Only Mo

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Re: Opinion on the "draft bill"
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2012, 09:06:42 PM »
Shalom Mo.... Long time no hear!

I sent you some texts a while back, you never responded. We gotta catch up.