Author Topic: ONE MILLION Haredim planning to march against a Torah command! (Read 25391 times)

Yerusha · « **Reply #50 on:** July 20, 2012, 07:45:03 AM »

Rabbi Baruch Horovitz of Yeshia Dvar Yerushalayim stated that: "The initial onslaught of the Yom Kippur War took place at the height of Mussaf Avodah, when in the time of the Beis Hamikdash korbanos were offered up to atone for the whole of Klal Yisroel. Those soldiers who perished in that traumatic hour died as perfect tzaddikim".

It is thus possible for a secular soldier who dies whilst defending other Jews, could in one instant of agony gain a reward in Olam Haba greater than a Haredi Jew who spends a lifetime doing mitzvos & studying Torah, but who absolutely refuses to partake in the mitzva of Milchemes Mitzva!

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #51 on:** July 20, 2012, 09:52:28 AM »

Quote from: Chaim Ben Pesach on July 19, 2012, 11:36:59 PM

בס''ד

I must also say that I am furious with you right now. Yesterday you uploaded to this forum a Judenrat kapo video promoting the Muslim Nazi Barack Hussein Obama as a "friend" of Israel. I removed the thread containing the video because it caused unnecessary tension between members of this forum. But you uploaded this evil treasonous video and you wrote:

I never said that he is but that he claims to be . My point was and is that many politicians claim to be pro-Israel when they are not. In no way was I stating that Obama is pro-Israel. I don't understand why you did not understand what I was saying.

Rubystars · « **Reply #52 on:** July 20, 2012, 11:02:19 AM »

I think a lot of Jews in the USA support Obama and try to convince themselves that he's pro-Israel even when he's really not at all (as Chaim pointed out) because they're generally a very left wing segment of the population, and they like his other policies like being pro-gay and pro-abortion and pro-illegal alien, so they overlook the fact that Obama hates Jews and Israel, or they try to fool themselves that Obama doesn't hate Jews and Israel.

They've even gone so far as to fool themselves into thinking the suicidal/genocidal "peace process" is a pro-Israel idea. So when they tell Jews outside the USA that Obama is "pro Israel" they really mean that he's for the suicidal/genocidal "peace process". Everyone on this forum knows that's not pro-Israel at all, but there are a lot of self-hating leftists who have convinced themselves and others that it is.

This is made worse by the Israeli government leftist or phony right leadership echoing the same ideas. Then the argument is made "How can an American president presume to be more pro-Israel than Israel itself is?" So the leftists use this as an excuse for people like Obama.

What you need to drive home to these people and I think what the essence of the problem is, is that the "peace process" is NOT pro-Israel and it will NOT help Israel's security, and it will NOT protect Jewish lives. If they can understand that, then they can no longer claim that Obama is "pro Israel" without knowing that they're lying. Of course many leftists would anyway.

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #53 on:** July 20, 2012, 11:07:47 AM »

Rubstars I agree 100% I don't understand how Chaim completely misunderstood what I was exactly saying. In no way would I support Obama. I think that is clear, but what I posted (and what got Chaim upset with me) was Obama pretending to be Israel's "best friend". I was trying to point that out and not saying that he was . Whatever, I think by now I should be understood, soo I'm going to stop repeating myself on this issue.

Rubystars · « **Reply #54 on:** July 20, 2012, 11:48:59 AM »

Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on July 20, 2012, 11:07:47 AM

Rubstars I agree 100% I don't understand how Chaim completely misunderstood what I was exactly saying. In no way would I support Obama. I think that is clear, but what I posted (and what got Chaim upset with me) was Obama pretending to be Israel's "best friend". I was trying to point that out and not saying that he was . Whatever, I think by now I should be understood, soo I'm going to stop repeating myself on this issue.

I thought you were confused by the pro-Obama propaganda. I thought maybe you didn't know that when they claimed Obama was "pro Israel" that it really meant that he was for the suicidal/genocidal "peace process". That's the left's definition of "pro Israel". You know, it's classic doublespeak, everything means the opposite of what the words mean. When Obama says he's pro-Israel, he really means he wants to destroy Israel a little at a time.

Yerusha · « **Reply #55 on:** July 20, 2012, 11:49:56 AM »

The secularist Haaretz's view of R.Elyashiv. Unfortunately they may have a bit of a point:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/rabbi-elyashiv-s-empty-legacy.premium-1.452254

Haredi Jews are not given to calling up the Guinness Book of Records offices in London and claiming a place in its records. But were they prone to such a tendency, Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, the spiritual leader of "Lithuanian" ultra-Orthodoxy who passed away on Wednesday at the age of 102, may have well been a record-holder. He was one of the few men or women alive with over 1,000 living descendants (all from monogamous relationships), including a handful of great-great-great-grandchildren. Now that he is dead, it is certain that the new record-holder is another Haredi centenarian living in Jerusalem with similar progeny.

Talk of family planning and birth control within the Haredi community is tantamount to heresy - how can anyone view zar'a chaya ve’kayama (literally, living and existing offspring) that do not stop uttering the words of the Torah, as anything but a good thing? The questions of whether all parents are equipped and talented enough to deal with such huge families; the physical and mental toll of constant childbearing and childcare on young mothers who never have a chance to live life for themselves; and the broader economic and social viability of a community that multiplies itself at such a breathtaking pace without preparing its younger members to lead productive lives in an advanced society have not been addressed.

This is Rabbi Elyashiv’s real legacy. He was not the only architect of this society; other rabbis put the foundations in place, and both religious and secular politicians are at fault for having tailor-made Israel’s welfare system to cater for the needs of a Haredi sector whose members do not work or partake in any form of national service, save for studying a stultified version of Torah. But it was Elyashiv – who for 40 years was venerated as Posek Hador, the arbiter of a generation, and had the final word on any issue of halakhic law – who wielded ultimate political power over the most influential section of Haredi Jewry since the mid-1990s. He bears the responsibility for stifling any internal debate on resolving the tensions between an insular and traditional community and the modern Israeli society within which it exists and refusing to come up with solutions to the challenges threatening the sustainability of the Haredi model in the 21st century.

He could have used this unique opportunity to prepare his followers for the inevitable clash with the outside world, but he preferred to stop the clocks and freeze them in time. Any attempt at modernizing the curricula for boys and girls was met with fierce opposition to and denunciation of those who sought to sully “the pure education.” Likewise programs for vocational training for the majority of young men who are not fit to spending a life studying ancient texts were blocked. One of his last public proclamations was against academic courses designed specifically for young Haredi men and women, and it is ironic that his death came at the height of the public debate over Haredi conscription to the Israel Defense Forces.

His legacy is an empty one. Thousands are already defying his orders by joining the special IDF units in which Haredi men both serve and learn valuable skills for civilian life, and the academic streams specially tailored for ultra-Orthodox needs are flourishing despite his prohibitions. His path of paralysis has served to slow down these inevitable developments, damning most of the next Haredi generation to poverty, but despite his dictates, they are beginning to evolved and adapt to modern life. A century from now, Rabbi Elyashiv will not be revered as a Torah giant, but as a reactionary figure by the few who remember him.

Rubystars · « **Reply #56 on:** July 20, 2012, 03:12:09 PM »

Yerusha I think that Jewish families should be large in Israel because it will help replenish the losses of numbers from all the pogroms and the Holocaust. I think it's a good thing if more Jewish babies are born, especially if they are raised by loving righteous families.

The One and Only Mo · « **Reply #57 on:** July 20, 2012, 05:58:55 PM »

Quote from: Yerusha on July 20, 2012, 11:49:56 AM

The secularist Haaretz's view of R.Elyashiv. Unfortunately they may have a bit of a point:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/rabbi-elyashiv-s-empty-legacy.premium-1.452254

Haredi Jews are not given to calling up the Guinness Book of Records offices in London and claiming a place in its records. But were they prone to such a tendency, Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, the spiritual leader of "Lithuanian" ultra-Orthodoxy who passed away on Wednesday at the age of 102, may have well been a record-holder. He was one of the few men or women alive with over 1,000 living descendants (all from monogamous relationships), including a handful of great-great-great-grandchildren. Now that he is dead, it is certain that the new record-holder is another Haredi centenarian living in Jerusalem with similar progeny.

Talk of family planning and birth control within the Haredi community is tantamount to heresy - how can anyone view zar'a chaya ve’kayama (literally, living and existing offspring) that do not stop uttering the words of the Torah, as anything but a good thing? The questions of whether all parents are equipped and talented enough to deal with such huge families; the physical and mental toll of constant childbearing and childcare on young mothers who never have a chance to live life for themselves; and the broader economic and social viability of a community that multiplies itself at such a breathtaking pace without preparing its younger members to lead productive lives in an advanced society have not been addressed.

This is Rabbi Elyashiv’s real legacy. He was not the only architect of this society; other rabbis put the foundations in place, and both religious and secular politicians are at fault for having tailor-made Israel’s welfare system to cater for the needs of a Haredi sector whose members do not work or partake in any form of national service, save for studying a stultified version of Torah. But it was Elyashiv – who for 40 years was venerated as Posek Hador, the arbiter of a generation, and had the final word on any issue of halakhic law – who wielded ultimate political power over the most influential section of Haredi Jewry since the mid-1990s. He bears the responsibility for stifling any internal debate on resolving the tensions between an insular and traditional community and the modern Israeli society within which it exists and refusing to come up with solutions to the challenges threatening the sustainability of the Haredi model in the 21st century.

He could have used this unique opportunity to prepare his followers for the inevitable clash with the outside world, but he preferred to stop the clocks and freeze them in time. Any attempt at modernizing the curricula for boys and girls was met with fierce opposition to and denunciation of those who sought to sully “the pure education.” Likewise programs for vocational training for the majority of young men who are not fit to spending a life studying ancient texts were blocked. One of his last public proclamations was against academic courses designed specifically for young Haredi men and women, and it is ironic that his death came at the height of the public debate over Haredi conscription to the Israel Defense Forces.

His legacy is an empty one. Thousands are already defying his orders by joining the special IDF units in which Haredi men both serve and learn valuable skills for civilian life, and the academic streams specially tailored for ultra-Orthodox needs are flourishing despite his prohibitions. His path of paralysis has served to slow down these inevitable developments, damning most of the next Haredi generation to poverty, but despite his dictates, they are beginning to evolved and adapt to modern life. A century from now, Rabbi Elyashiv will not be revered as a Torah giant, but as a reactionary figure by the few who remember him.

Yes, to a secular person or someone who doesn't believe that learning Torah is the be all and all of life, there is a point. G-d is providing these charedim with the means to support their lifestyles. How is he doing it? Through the welfare system. Pirkei Avos says that all our wealth is Hashem's anyways, and nothing is truly ours. We are just Hashem's tools. Thus, Hashem will ensure that everything goes according to His plan.

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #58 on:** July 20, 2012, 06:16:13 PM »

Quote from: The One and Only Mo on July 20, 2012, 05:58:55 PM

Yes, to a secular person or someone who doesn't believe that learning Torah is the be all and all of life, there is a point. G-d is providing these charedim with the means to support their lifestyles. How is he doing it? Through the welfare system. Pirkei Avos says that all our wealth is Hashem's anyways, and nothing is truly ours. We are just Hashem's tools. Thus, Hashem will ensure that everything goes according to His plan.

Welfare is for those who try but cannot succeed in work. Its not for purposefully not working and then asking for a handout + creating a situation where the Torah is disgraced because of that.
Show me where it says what you did in Pirkei Avot.
This is from Pirkei Avot, something very applicable to the situation.
Chapter 1 # 10
"Shemayah said: Love work; hate domination; and seek not undue intimacy with the government."
http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.htm

Anyway we do not want a situation of widespread poverty upon our people, especially the kids when they can be making some $.

muman613 · « **Reply #59 on:** July 20, 2012, 07:25:41 PM »

Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on July 20, 2012, 06:16:13 PM

Welfare is for those who try but cannot succeed in work. Its not for purposefully not working and then asking for a handout + creating a situation where the Torah is disgraced because of that.
Show me where it says what you did in Pirkei Avot.
This is from Pirkei Avot, something very applicable to the situation.
Chapter 1 # 10
"Shemayah said: Love work; hate domination; and seek not undue intimacy with the government."
http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.htm

Anyway we do not want a situation of widespread poverty upon our people, especially the kids when they can be making some $.

Im not sure if Mo was referring to this perek of Pirkie Avot but it is applicable:

Pirkie Avot 6:9

http://blog.webyeshiva.org/avot/money-or-meaning

Quote

R. Yossi the son of Kisma said: “I once encountered a man while traveling. He greeted me and I returned his greetings. He said to me: ‘Rabbi, where are you from?’ I said to him: ‘I am from a great city of sages and scholars.’ He said to me: ‘Rabbi, would you like to dwell with us in our place? I will give you a million dinars of gold, precious stones and pearls.’ I said to him: ‘If you were to give me all the silver, gold, precious stones and pearls in the world, I would not dwell anywhere but in a place of Torah. Indeed, so is written in the book of psalms by David the king of Israel: `I prefer the Torah of Your mouth over thousands in gold and silver’ (Tehillim 119:72). Furthermore, when a person passes from this world neither silver, nor gold, nor precious stones, nor pearls accompany him, only Torah and good deeds, as is stated (Mishlei 6:22): `When you go it will direct you, when you lie down it will watch over you, and when you awaken it shall be your speech.’ `When you go it will direct you’—in this world; `when you lie down it will watch over you’—in the grave; `and when you awaken it shall be our speech’—in the World To Come. Also it says (Haggai 2:8): `Mine is the silver and Mine is the gold, so says the Lord of Hosts.’’ (Avot 6:9)

The clash between the competing pursuits of material wealth and spiritual concerns remains a ubiquitous part of human life. R. Yossi declined an offer of significant riches because he did not want to leave a location saturated with Torah. According to Tifferet Yisrael, their exchange of greetings indicates that the fellow who made the offer came from a town with decency and moral behavior. Thus, the opportunity for money came together with polite neighbors. Nonetheless, R. Yossi turned down the chance since this town lacked the environment of Torah knowledge within which he thrived.

Why does R. Yossi prefer Torah to material bounty? His first argument is of the “You can’t take it with you” variety. Large bank accounts no longer help the deceased whereas the accumulated merits of mizvot do pass on the next world. R. Yossi’s exposition upon the verse from Mishlei both echoes that point and also brings other arguments to the fore. Statements about Torah’s impact in “the grave” and in “the World To Come” point to the enduring worth of Torah and good deeds as opposed to the ephemeral benefits of money.

According to this mishna’s reading of the earlier part of the verse, Mishlei instructs us about direction in this world received from involvement in Torah. Torah provides a framework for ethical and spiritual striving often lacking when a person seeks different goals. Indeed, we dare not limit the advantages of Torah study to its otherworldly compensation. In this world alone, one cannot compare a life of wealth with a life of spiritual questing.
.
.
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muman613 · « **Reply #60 on:** July 20, 2012, 07:35:37 PM »

See also Pirkei Avot 4:12

http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.html

Quote

12. Rabbi Meir said: Engage little in business but occupy yourself with Torah. Be humble in spirit before all men. If you neglect Torah many causes for neglecting it will present themselves to you; but if you labor in Torah then G-d has abundant reward to give you.

http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter4-12.html

For the most part, this week's mishna seems to revolve around one basic theme -- that Torah and religion should play the most important part of our lives over livelihood and career.

R. Meir first advises that we lessen our business activities and study more Torah. As many of us know, work never really finishes -- even after that deadline has passed. There are always loose ends to tie up, e-mails to respond to, work to take home from the office, and new ventures to undertake, thereby (we suppose) earning us more money and prestige. And of course, thanks to cell phones, palmtops, blackberries, etc. (whatever the latest is -- I have trouble keeping track) the aggravation never ends.

(It's been observed that most adults spends more of their waking hours with coworkers than with spouse and children. Perhaps unavoidable, but hardly beneficial to family cohesiveness. Hopefully, the family time will be superior in quality if not in quantity.)

To this our mishna states that there must be a limit. For most of us work is a necessary mainstay of our lives, in fact a fulfillment of a Torah obligation to support ourselves monetarily. But it is at best an indirect form of Divine service. It must never take precedence over true spiritual growth.

The One and Only Mo · « **Reply #61 on:** July 21, 2012, 11:00:46 PM »

Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on July 20, 2012, 06:16:13 PM

Welfare is for those who try but cannot succeed in work. Its not for purposefully not working and then asking for a handout + creating a situation where the Torah is disgraced because of that.
Show me where it says what you did in Pirkei Avot.
This is from Pirkei Avot, something very applicable to the situation.
Chapter 1 # 10
"Shemayah said: Love work; hate domination; and seek not undue intimacy with the government."
http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.htm

Anyway we do not want a situation of widespread poverty upon our people, especially the kids when they can be making some $.

Yes, but tzedaka is a requirement. So even if one does not wish to pay into welfare, one has an obligation to give tzedaka. When I review Pirkei Avos again, I will find the same exact place, but it could also be in Orchas Tzadikim...It shouldn't be too hard to find a source in the Torah which say that all of our wealth belongs to Hashem and that everything in the universe comes from Him.

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #62 on:** July 22, 2012, 09:27:52 AM »

Quote from: The One and Only Mo on July 21, 2012, 11:00:46 PM

Yes, but tzedaka is a requirement. So even if one does not wish to pay into welfare, one has an obligation to give tzedaka.

True, I never said not to give Tzedakah. It is an obligation.

And Muman- thanks for proving my point with this - " Rabbi Meir said: Engage little in business but occupy yourself with Torah. "

That is what the great giants did and recommended. Work little, be independent, but focus mainly upon Torah, Mitzwoth and Maase Tovim.

The One and Only Mo · « **Reply #63 on:** July 22, 2012, 09:35:54 AM »

it's a secular state. I would expect no less than for the chilonim to wish to wipe out Torah the same way the government wishes to wipe out the land.

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #64 on:** July 22, 2012, 10:29:43 AM »

Quote from: The One and Only Mo on July 22, 2012, 09:35:54 AM

it's a secular state. I would expect no less than for the chilonim to wish to wipe out Torah the same way the government wishes to wipe out the land.

No one is arguing that some do not wish to. That is true, what is sometimes just as bad is when they try to "join them then beat them" as is said by having the government involved with strings attached they can even control the Torah world because essentially they know that it will not go away. Soo having some "Haredi" Knesset parties and throwing them a few bones here and there can and will get them to shut up while the leftists get away with what they plan. Including destroying Jewish communities while using the Yeshivas as hostages for the Haredi parties not to vote against them. This was and is the ultimatum given- either do not vote against it or get thrown out with then the Yeshiva students and the Yeshivot not getting $. Some of them figure, well it will pass anyway soo might as well make some $ for our Yeshivot and not have people have no $ at all.
It is a booby trap, we are saying we do not want and should not be in such situations.

Kahane-Was-Right BT · « **Reply #65 on:** July 23, 2012, 11:19:37 PM »

Quote from: The One and Only Mo on July 21, 2012, 11:00:46 PM

Yes, but tzedaka is a requirement. So even if one does not wish to pay into welfare, one has an obligation to give tzedaka. When I review Pirkei Avos again, I will find the same exact place, but it could also be in Orchas Tzadikim...It shouldn't be too hard to find a source in the Torah which say that all of our wealth belongs to Hashem and that everything in the universe comes from Him.

But from what I understand, one is not obligated to help someone who refuses to work.

Review those laws.

The One and Only Mo · « **Reply #66 on:** July 24, 2012, 08:59:17 AM »

Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on July 23, 2012, 11:19:37 PM

But from what I understand, one is not obligated to help someone who refuses to work.

Review those laws.

They are studying for the intent that one day they will be teaching. It's like a student taking loans out for 12 years to pursue a PHD. Learning Torah IS a job, the same way research is. Unfortunately, in a secular state, learning Torah is NOT a job, even though it leads to teaching.

Kahane-Was-Right BT · « **Reply #67 on:** July 24, 2012, 08:52:25 PM »

Quote from: The One and Only Mo on July 24, 2012, 08:59:17 AM

They are studying for the intent that one day they will be teaching. It's like a student taking loans out for 12 years to pursue a PHD. Learning Torah IS a job, the same way research is. Unfortunately, in a secular state, learning Torah is NOT a job, even though it leads to teaching.

That's completely untrue on multiple counts. You are trying to find ways to justify the kollel system. Well, feel free to justify it to YOURSELF as you wish with whatever logic you choose, and feel free to give as much of your own money to that system as you want. But the discussion (the comment I replied to) centered on the halachic obligation of the people at large to fund a kollel system of an entire society of people who refuse to work and choose to learn full time. Or an individual to give to one such person. From what I understand, there is no such obligation.

Most are not in kollel to become teachers or any profession. Even the ones who are, training for a profession is not the same thing as being in a profession!

And since when do I pay for phd candidates? The institutions themselves offer the stipends. They make their profits on other things. People in law school and medical school take out LOANS. People getting masters degrees (usually what teachers get) take loans or get partially funded by their employer. So your logic doesn't even make sense, but again, feel free to go w what you like for yourself, I'm talking about an entire society of people demanding payment and support from the rest of a country while refusing to work. Then you really have no place to say anyone is required to do this.

Even receiving money to teach torah is a machloketh. But most poskim allow it (unlike Rambam) for certain circumstances. Those circumstances do not include taking money to LEARN Torah while not teaching it, either now (all of them) or in the future (most of them).

The One and Only Mo · « **Reply #68 on:** July 24, 2012, 09:54:15 PM »

Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on July 24, 2012, 08:52:25 PM

That's completely untrue on multiple counts. You are trying to find ways to justify the kollel system. Well, feel free to justify it to YOURSELF as you wish with whatever logic you choose, and feel free to give as much of your own money to that system as you want. But the discussion (the comment I replied to) centered on the halachic obligation of the people at large to fund a kollel system of an entire society of people who refuse to work and choose to learn full time. Or an individual to give to one such person. From what I understand, there is no such obligation.

Most are not in kollel to become teachers or any profession. Even the ones who are, training for a profession is not the same thing as being in a profession!

And since when do I pay for phd candidates? The institutions themselves offer the stipends. They make their profits on other things. People in law school and medical school take out LOANS. People getting masters degrees (usually what teachers get) take loans or get partially funded by their employer. So your logic doesn't even make sense, but again, feel free to go w what you like for yourself, I'm talking about an entire society of people demanding payment and support from the rest of a country while refusing to work. Then you really have no place to say anyone is required to do this.

Even receiving money to teach torah is a machloketh. But most poskim allow it (unlike Rambam) for certain circumstances. Those circumstances do not include taking money to LEARN Torah while not teaching it, either now (all of them) or in the future (most of them).

I never said anybody was obligated to fund it. It's a mitzvah to fund it, but nobody has to. And for the record, the govenment loans millions to students to attend college etc., sometimes people get money from the government that they don't have to pay back (see FAFSA).

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #69 on:** July 24, 2012, 10:03:04 PM »

Quote from: The One and Only Mo on July 24, 2012, 09:54:15 PM

I never said anybody was obligated to fund it. It's a mitzvah to fund it, but nobody has to. And for the record, the govenment loans millions to students to attend college etc., sometimes people get money from the government that they don't have to pay back (see FAFSA).

True, but 1) who said others agree with that and 2) perhaps the governmental claim for that can be that the $ they invest in schools will then come back to the system in much larger quantities by the taxes collected from the higher paying jobs (at least this can be the argument made by some). Soo it is an economic investment.

The One and Only Mo · « **Reply #70 on:** July 24, 2012, 11:26:15 PM »

Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on July 24, 2012, 10:03:04 PM

True, but 1) who said others agree with that and 2) perhaps the governmental claim for that can be that the $ they invest in schools will then come back to the system in much larger quantities by the taxes collected from the higher paying jobs (at least this can be the argument made by some). Soo it is an economic investment.

Not everybody who gets free money for school ends up with a high paying job.

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #71 on:** July 24, 2012, 11:36:57 PM »

Quote from: The One and Only Mo on July 24, 2012, 11:26:15 PM

Not everybody who gets free money for school ends up with a high paying job.

Okay, but it is an investment that statistically pays off. Its like buying shares in stocks. Not smart to only buy 1 or 2 or 10 stocks, better to buy many in bundles (like Mutual funds) because over time they will pay off. The argument can be made the same here.Although when looking at specifics their is much discussion that can be spoken and thought through about (if for example paying for any education or just specific education programs is the way to go- like nursing, specific in demand sciences etc.)
With Haredim you can make a similar argument, true, but wouldn't we want the Torah to be free from governmental influences? I'm not saying NOT to support Torah institutions. Actually the opposite, but their definitely are problems with the current system on many levels.
By the way I am opposed to many of the governmental waste in the BILLIONS of dollars with stupidity such as funding failed kibbutzim programs and business ventures, also in soo called "arts", media and other such "social" non-sense, but really parts of government supporting their own institutions and friends.

The One and Only Mo · « **Reply #72 on:** July 25, 2012, 12:19:47 AM »

I don't know what's going to end up happening in the end; what I do know is that Hashem is in charge.

Khan Krum · « **Reply #73 on:** July 25, 2012, 01:06:07 AM »

Well Jews in that land, "settlements", are not foreigners, that is their land. There is no "West Bank" or "Gaza", only Judæa and Samaria and that has been promise to Jews and legally too it is legitimate Jewish land. So why don't Arabs go back to the huge masses of undeveloped desert they love yet never develop except to rape them for oil that they can enslave the world?

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #74 on:** July 25, 2012, 10:45:36 AM »

Quote from: Khan Krum on July 25, 2012, 01:06:07 AM

Well Jews in that land, "settlements", are not foreigners, that is their land. There is no "West Bank" or "Gaza", only Judæa and Samaria and that has been promise to Jews and legally too it is legitimate Jewish land. So why don't Arabs go back to the huge masses of undeveloped desert they love yet never develop except to rape them for oil that they can enslave the world?

Right, but I think you got the wrong message board.