Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
ONE MILLION Haredim planning to march against a Torah command!
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: The One and Only Mo on July 21, 2012, 11:00:46 PM ---Yes, but tzedaka is a requirement. So even if one does not wish to pay into welfare, one has an obligation to give tzedaka. When I review Pirkei Avos again, I will find the same exact place, but it could also be in Orchas Tzadikim...It shouldn't be too hard to find a source in the Torah which say that all of our wealth belongs to Hashem and that everything in the universe comes from Him.
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But from what I understand, one is not obligated to help someone who refuses to work.
Review those laws.
The One and Only Mo:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on July 23, 2012, 11:19:37 PM ---But from what I understand, one is not obligated to help someone who refuses to work.
Review those laws.
--- End quote ---
They are studying for the intent that one day they will be teaching. It's like a student taking loans out for 12 years to pursue a PHD. Learning Torah IS a job, the same way research is. Unfortunately, in a secular state, learning Torah is NOT a job, even though it leads to teaching.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: The One and Only Mo on July 24, 2012, 08:59:17 AM ---They are studying for the intent that one day they will be teaching. It's like a student taking loans out for 12 years to pursue a PHD. Learning Torah IS a job, the same way research is. Unfortunately, in a secular state, learning Torah is NOT a job, even though it leads to teaching.
--- End quote ---
That's completely untrue on multiple counts. You are trying to find ways to justify the kollel system. Well, feel free to justify it to YOURSELF as you wish with whatever logic you choose, and feel free to give as much of your own money to that system as you want. But the discussion (the comment I replied to) centered on the halachic obligation of the people at large to fund a kollel system of an entire society of people who refuse to work and choose to learn full time. Or an individual to give to one such person. From what I understand, there is no such obligation.
Most are not in kollel to become teachers or any profession. Even the ones who are, training for a profession is not the same thing as being in a profession!
And since when do I pay for phd candidates? The institutions themselves offer the stipends. They make their profits on other things. People in law school and medical school take out LOANS. People getting masters degrees (usually what teachers get) take loans or get partially funded by their employer. So your logic doesn't even make sense, but again, feel free to go w what you like for yourself, I'm talking about an entire society of people demanding payment and support from the rest of a country while refusing to work. Then you really have no place to say anyone is required to do this.
Even receiving money to teach torah is a machloketh. But most poskim allow it (unlike Rambam) for certain circumstances. Those circumstances do not include taking money to LEARN Torah while not teaching it, either now (all of them) or in the future (most of them).
The One and Only Mo:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on July 24, 2012, 08:52:25 PM ---That's completely untrue on multiple counts. You are trying to find ways to justify the kollel system. Well, feel free to justify it to YOURSELF as you wish with whatever logic you choose, and feel free to give as much of your own money to that system as you want. But the discussion (the comment I replied to) centered on the halachic obligation of the people at large to fund a kollel system of an entire society of people who refuse to work and choose to learn full time. Or an individual to give to one such person. From what I understand, there is no such obligation.
Most are not in kollel to become teachers or any profession. Even the ones who are, training for a profession is not the same thing as being in a profession!
And since when do I pay for phd candidates? The institutions themselves offer the stipends. They make their profits on other things. People in law school and medical school take out LOANS. People getting masters degrees (usually what teachers get) take loans or get partially funded by their employer. So your logic doesn't even make sense, but again, feel free to go w what you like for yourself, I'm talking about an entire society of people demanding payment and support from the rest of a country while refusing to work. Then you really have no place to say anyone is required to do this.
Even receiving money to teach torah is a machloketh. But most poskim allow it (unlike Rambam) for certain circumstances. Those circumstances do not include taking money to LEARN Torah while not teaching it, either now (all of them) or in the future (most of them).
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I never said anybody was obligated to fund it. It's a mitzvah to fund it, but nobody has to. And for the record, the govenment loans millions to students to attend college etc., sometimes people get money from the government that they don't have to pay back (see FAFSA).
Tag-MehirTzedek:
--- Quote from: The One and Only Mo on July 24, 2012, 09:54:15 PM ---I never said anybody was obligated to fund it. It's a mitzvah to fund it, but nobody has to. And for the record, the govenment loans millions to students to attend college etc., sometimes people get money from the government that they don't have to pay back (see FAFSA).
--- End quote ---
True, but 1) who said others agree with that and 2) perhaps the governmental claim for that can be that the $ they invest in schools will then come back to the system in much larger quantities by the taxes collected from the higher paying jobs (at least this can be the argument made by some). Soo it is an economic investment.
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